2014 Skate America SD 10/24

[Alba]

Right. The British Eurosport coverage of Skate America is due to start in 5 minutes time, with the Short Dance followed by the Men's Short.

British Eurosport 1 Livestream

(Eurosport 1 International is showing the 2nd frame of the final of the Bulgarian Open snooker from a couple of weeks ago).

Hope this helps

CaroLiza_fan

Eurosport 2 international is showing Skate America. I'm watching now Eurosport ITA.

 

[FSGMT]

Thank you sneakypie! Your analysis shows that the judges have been pretty harsh with them... Is the ice coverage thing a recent one? Because I remember seeing a lot of twizzles with almost 0 ice coverage receiving level 4 (mainly in the early IJS years) :scratch:

 

[Alba]

Thank you sneakypie! Your analysis shows that the judges have been pretty harsh with them... Is the ice coverage thing a recent one? Because I remember seeing a lot of twizzles with almost 0 ice coverage receiving level 4 (mainly in the early IJS years) :scratch:

No, twizzels should be travelling. I don't think you've seen twizzles that don't travel with level 4.

Fortunately S&B had good GoE's but I see that one judge gave them 1, and I don't understand why.
Ok, the level was 1 but that shouldn't effect the GoE's, right? That's why skaters goes for level, rather than execution.

 

[Irina89]

I hope this way of judging won't become a pattern...It would be a shame to the competitions

 

[dorispulaski]

The whole set of twizzle rules have changed a lot this year. And so we are seeing new and interesting types of twizzles.

When teams try new and different positions, entries, and so forth, it is not surprising that they are having difficulty keeping speed across the ice and even rotational speed while twizzling. As they lose their forward momentum, they come perilously close to a pirouette/spin instead of a twizzle. As teams sort out the new rules, there will be fewer and fewer huge drops in twizzle levels.

Sadly there will also be fewer interesting twizzles.

 

[KKonas]

It must be really great for Shpilband's teams to have the father of one of their training mates on the technical panel handing out levels at major events like Grand Prixs and World Championships!

Let's see. Highest technical score at Worlds last year?
This event which was an obvious head-to-head battle? Highest levels for the paso and PSS went to ? Aaaand, Lowest levels went to ?

Such an ethical sport.

You clearly don't know Igor or Sergei to insinuate wrong doing.

 

[gmyers]

After watching S/B twizzles several times here us what I think happened to their level. Fair warning this will be a long, technical post.

This is the requirement to get a level 4 in a twizzle:


The Additional Features I think they were going for were:
In the first twizzle
Group B (skating leg and free leg):sit position (at least 90 degrees between the thigh and shin of the skating leg); this is a Difficult Additional Feature
in the second one it was
Group A (upper body and hands): elbow(s) at least at level with or higher than the level of the shoulders (hand(s) could be above the head, at the same level as the head, or lower than the head);
and in the third one it was
Group C (pattern, entry, exit): both partners perform a third Twizzle of at least 3 rotations, performed correctly, started with different entry edge than the first two Twizzles, and preceded by a maximum of one step for Set of Sequential Twizzles or a maximum of three steps for Set of Synchronized Twizzles.

Lets see what went wrong. They had different entry edges, direction of rotation and enough rotations in each twizzle for level four, so the error must have been in the Additional Features. In the second twizzle Stephanovas left elbow was lower than her shoulder, that drops them to level three

because they still have two Additional Features and one is a difficult one.

Now we get to the murkier part, either one of those Additional Features wasn't credited, but I don't see a reason for that since the sit position was clearly low enough and established within the first half rotation and the third twizzle had three rotation and a different edge unless the forward right outside edge and the backward right outside edge count as the same edge. Even if the third twizzle was not counted as an Additional Feature they still would have gotten a level two
for a Difficult Additional Feature.

So unless the sit position wasn't given credit for some reason, they must have had a level adjustment:


The only one that could apply, in my opinion, is the Pirouettes. Ice coverage is something that is very hard to judge in a video because of the camera angle, in the slow motion replay it looks like they are almost staying in place, but in the angle during the program they seem to travel at least a little. This is rather subjective and the judges may have had an overhead view camera to make that call.

These rules are too much! Just want to stamp out any creativity. It should be redone as choreo twizzle like you had choreo step sequence. Here you have he first innovation in twizzles since cop began and its deemed a worthless never do again level one disaster! Maybe a tech expert csm be hired by s/b to make it better but i think the tech panel wants such innovations banned.

 

[sisinka]

After watching S/B twizzles several times here us what I think happened to their level. Fair warning this will be a long, technical post..................

........Lets see what went wrong. They had different entry edges, direction of rotation and enough rotations in each twizzle for level four, so the error must have been in the Additional Features. In the second twizzle Stephanovas left elbow was lower than her shoulder, that drops them to level three...............

.........The only one that could apply, in my opinion, is the Pirouettes. Ice coverage is something that is very hard to judge in a video because of the camera angle, in the slow motion replay it looks like they are almost staying in place, but in the angle during the program they seem to travel at least a little. This is rather subjective and the judges may have had an overhead view camera to make that call.

Very good analysis, thank you.
I want correct one thing – Feature from Group A – elbow(s) above the level of shoulder – one elbow is enough, so Sasha’s position of hands in second Set of Twizzles was counted, because her right elbow was above the shoulders.

In my opinion…
First problem – Sasha & Ivan don’t execute continuous move in first Set of Twizzles. It is important from what angle of camera you watch, but camera angle Short Dance was taken from (not slow motion pictures, but camera during the dance), it is visible that the couple has some minor ice coverage in the first set….but moving across the ice looks strange… so when you look repeatedly or in slow motion, you may notice that they are moving during the first half of rotation, but second half of rotation is done on one spot (a half rotation piruette), than another rotation with a move for half rotation and second half rotation is on one spot….this is not Twizzles where definition means - A traveling turn on one foot with one or more rotations which is quickly rotated with a continuous (uninterrupted) action.

Second problem – the ending of the Twizzle…the couple is not able to get from the sit position using standing leg only – so they are exiting the first Set on two feet doing a half rotation on two feet and then another half rotation on two feet which is already a step between first and second Set of Twizzles. I didn’t find any notice in ISU rules which would talk about exiting Twizzles on two foot (probably because they expect that everybody will exit it on one foot), only two foot steps between Sets are noticed in rules. But I don’t think this is correct to exit Twizzles doing two foot skating for half rotation (this is like exiting Sit Spin on two foot).

So why Level 1 in Twizzles for Stepanova & Bukin only? I think that Feature from Group A (position of arms) and Feature from Group B (position of leg) was met and kept for at least four rotations. And Feature from Group C was executed also (like Sneakypie described above).

It would be enough for Level 4, BUT the couple didn’t execute proper turns in the first Set – it could be called a Piruette for more than four rotations – so Two Levels down. And the couple looked to make almost a full stop between first and second Set of Twizzles – this is another One Level down. So overall if this would be counted like this, their Twizzles could go to Level 1.

I think that another possibility is that first Set of Twizzles was not counted at all because it was not taken like Twizzles thanks to strange travelling across the ice, non continuous action, or thanks to exit on two foot kept for half rotations and almost stop moving. If Technical Specialist would taken into account only Second and Third set of Twizzles, it could be Level 1 also.

 

[sisinka]

S/b have created something like the tano or rippon lutz- the Stepukin Twizzle! Good for them!

It is not true that nobody ever used sit position in Twizzles, Hurtado & Diaz did, but they were not in so low position, but it looked much more like Twizzles.
Hurtado & Diaz - 2011/12 season - Free Dance - Third Set of Twizzles - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3u3upSHQLk&feature=player_detailpage#t=222

 

[sisinka]

These rules are too much! Just want to stamp out any creativity. It should be redone as choreo twizzle like you had choreo step sequence. Here you have he first innovation in twizzles since cop began and its deemed a worthless never do again level one disaster! Maybe a tech expert csm be hired by s/b to make it better but i think the tech panel wants such innovations banned.

I agree that originality is something what is loosing, with old rules there were much more couples with original and breathtaking programs, while now it tries to look like an athletic sport only (like 3 000 metres of hurdles).

ISU rules tries to come with originality – new Twizzles with new positions are original. But there is a posibility that Sit position can’t be performed correctly like Twizzle. Also Hurtado & Diaz were in trouble and their Sit Twizzles looked like a Piruette more than like Twizzles.

What you must realise Gmyers, is the fact that no matter what position (difficult / easy) you have in Twizzles, it must be still Twizzles. Stepanova & Bukin are performing half Piruette / half Twizzle element in their Sit position. If you watch carefully their path on the ice (visible from normal motion during their SD, especially in Ivan’s case), you will notice that during that half rotation where they stop moving in every rotation of Sit Twizzles, they are doing minor circle on the ice with their skates of standing leg…Twizzles have another path on the ice, without any circles.

So no matter how original you want to be the basic technique of every element must be done properly. If you are not able to fulfill the basic criteria and technique of the element (Twizzles in this case), don’t do it.

 

[3T3T]

Just watched the Top 3. A big score from C/B but wasn't sure from watching if that was a Paso? Normally I find her very OTT, which should suit this dance, but she was very restrained and he was just there to show her of and didn't certainly capture the male role all that well. Still the judges liked it so thats all that matters. Was that Fabian Boruzat with them in the K&C?

Not normally a fan of the Shibs, I always thought they were an afterthought to Marina after her top two couples and started falling back because of that. I didn't think this dance would suit them but it was better than I expected and from a PCS point I would have it ahead of C/B but they did make mistakes which hurt their TES. He did a good job at capturing the male role,she was a bit reserved, it's not her dance I think.

I didn't think S/B would actually take part but glady they did. I loved their twizzles but the judges didn't, from reading previous posts getting the levels on the twizzles is so difficulty and so complicated. I liked the role he played,for me it was the most Paso of the Top 3. I like her a lot, she is tall and athletic, a bit like Domnina and a real diva in the making. Hopefully they hold on for bronze but it will be a real scrap with only 2.19 points between 3rd and 7th.

I do think it is inappropriate that Sergei Ponomarenko was down as the technical controller. His wife is part of the Shpilband team and his son is coached by him, I think it potentially compromises him.

 

[dorispulaski]

Would you you prefer Judy Blumberg or Maurizio Margaglio, who are employed from time to time by Team Zueva?

In this case, Ponomarenko was the assistant technical specialist the least powerful member of the panel.

Referee Mr. Gilles VANDENBROECK ISU

Technical Controller Ms. Linda LEAVER ISU ( lives in US, I think in Salt Lake)

Technical Specialist Mr. Andrzej DOSTATNI ISU (competed for Poland, currently associated with the group in Colorado Springs)

Assistant Technical Specialist Mr. Sergei PONOMARENKO ISU (competed for USSR, currently resident and coaching in California, has ties to Shpilband.)

 

[sisinka]

Let’s introduce Paso Doble steps….

For me the best Paso Doble dances were executed by Domnina & Shabalin and Virtue & Moir, so I will borrow their bodies and skates to show the important steps which mean Key Points.

We have Pattern Dance and Partial Step Sequence. While in Pattern Dance both Man and Lady perform steps for Key Point 1, in Partial Step Sequence that Key Point 1 is devided into two Key Points. So in Partial Step Sequence Key Point 1 means Lady steps and Key Point 2 means Man steps from Key Point 1 in Pattern Dance.
In Pattern Dance Key Point 3 takes more steps done be both Lady and Man, while in Partial Step Sequence Key Point 3 is only the ending steps of Key Point 3 from Pattern Dance.

Let’s jump to Key Point 1…

…it starts with Step 8 and 9… slip steps (sometimes called “slide steps”) for both the lady (skating backward) and the man (skating forward). They are skated on the flat with both blades on the ice and with the free foot sliding closely past the skating foot to full extension…
… On step 10 the free foot must be lifted distinctly from the ice….Lady crosses Left leg behind and skates Backward on Outside edge while Man is on Right Forward Outside edge (he crosses in front)…

….Step 11…Lady crosses Right leg in front of the Left leg and changes edge from Inside to Outside…Man crosses Left leg behind and changes from Inside to Outside edge…

In step 12…Lady crosses Left leg behind keeping Inside edge and Skating Backwards…Man crosses Right leg in front and keeps Inside edge…

….Technical panel watches…
1. Correct Edges
2. Correct Slip Steps (# 8, 9)
3. Correct Change of Edge (# 11)
4. Correct Crossed Step In Front (# 10 Man, 11 Lady, 12 Man)
5. Correct Crossed Step Behind (# 10 Lady, 11 Man, 12 Lady)

Key Point 2…Men’s world…

…Step 15…Man skates Forward and crosses Left leg behind keeping Outside edge and executes Open Mohawk…

….Step 16…Man skates on Right leg Backward keeping Outside edge…

…Technical Panel watches…
1. Correct Edges
2. Correct Crossed Step Behind (# 15)
3. Open Mohawk (# 15): correct Turn
4. Open Mohawk (# 15): correct placement of the free foot

Key Point 3…

…Steps 26 to 28… the cross rolling movement. The deeper these outside edges are the better, which necessitates very supple knee action owing to the fast tempo of the dance. On the last cross roll the free legs are swung to the front and both partners remain on the right forward outside edge. Then only as they bring their free legs back to the heel, lady changes to a very short RFI edge and lady continous doing Open Mohawk and change to Left Backward Inside edge…

…Technical panel watches…
1. Correct Edges
2. SwR: correct swing movement of the free leg
3. Open Mohawk: correct Turn
4. Open Mohawk: correct placement of the free foot

Key Point 3 in Partial Step Seqence means only Step 28 – cross roll Righ Outside edge for both partners, swing movement of free leg and change to Left Backward Inside edge doing Open Mohawk from lady…

 

[sisinka]

Would you you prefer Judy Blumberg or Maurizio Margaglio, who are employed from time to time by Team Zueva?

In this case, Ponomarenko was the assistant technical specialist the least powerful member of the panel.

Referee Mr. Gilles VANDENBROECK ISU

Technical Controller Ms. Linda LEAVER ISU ( lives in US, I think in Salt Lake)

Technical Specialist Mr. Andrzej DOSTATNI ISU (competed for Poland, currently associated with the group in Colorado Springs)

Assistant Technical Specialist Mr. Sergei PONOMARENKO ISU (competed for USSR, currently resident and coaching in California, has ties to Shpilband.)

As long as judges and officials and skaters and coaches will be meeting off the ice and taking and creating friendship and Oh my God working at one Ice Rink, as long Figure Skating will suffer from judging "looking at skating only". Plus politics of every Federation, because Number One Team must improve results no matter how their skating looks like (when ex-Number One Team finished career).

Just make it more crazy...Andrei Dostatni and some off ice rumours....he married Elena Khaliavina, who was Maxim Shabalin's ex ice partner, he changed her for Domnina (great choice, Khaliavina was weak skater). "This" Dostatni was rumoured that he put down Domnina & Shabalin's level at 2007 World Championships and while the couple performed great programs - they slowly fell down from third place after CD to fourth place after SD and final fifth place after FD. While Belbin & Agosto with not so strong performance that year...they were fifth after CD, but jumped to third place after SD and two footed Twizzles done by Belbin with overall unimpressed FD kept Americans in third position.
Many people were pointing that Shabalin's ex partner Khaliavina did a revenge to Maxim through her husband (in 2007 Dostatni was Khaliavina's boyfriend, they married in 2009).

 

[dcnative]

On a very shallow and off-topic note, Hi Fabian.

 

[gmyers]

I agree that originality is something what is loosing, with old rules there were much more couples with original and breathtaking programs, while now it tries to look like an athletic sport only (like 3 000 metres of hurdles).

ISU rules tries to come with originality – new Twizzles with new positions are original. But there is a posibility that Sit position can’t be performed correctly like Twizzle. Also Hurtado & Diaz were in trouble and their Sit Twizzles looked like a Piruette more than like Twizzles.

What you must realise Gmyers, is the fact that no matter what position (difficult / easy) you have in Twizzles, it must be still Twizzles. Stepanova & Bukin are performing half Piruette / half Twizzle element in their Sit position. If you watch carefully their path on the ice (visible from normal motion during their SD, especially in Ivan’s case), you will notice that during that half rotation where they stop moving in every rotation of Sit Twizzles, they are doing minor circle on the ice with their skates of standing leg…Twizzles have another path on the ice, without any circles.

So no matter how original you want to be the basic technique of every element must be done properly. If you are not able to fulfill the basic criteria and technique of the element (Twizzles in this case), don’t do it.

It was credited as a twizzle but it was level one. I would assume that of there was no twizzle in the sit position it would've invalidated the entire twizzle element. I agree though that this team may not be talented enough technically to pull sit twizzle off. Maybe davis and white or virtue and moir could. So because the element was labeled as twizzle it was a in fact a twizzle and not pirouette. But maybe only stuff after sit twizzle was labeled twizzle and sit twizzle was seen as transition into only 2 sets which got level one. Maybe they can keep it as a transition if possible.

 

[sisinka]

Madison Chock & Evan Bates:

Key Points: Pattern Dance Level 4 (all Key Point done) and Partial Step Sequence Level 3 (Key Point 3 not met)…

In Pattern Dance: Key Point 1 was executed very well, in Key Point 2 (Evan’s work only) exiting edge – Right Backward Outside was minor….I would say that it was not there. Key Point 3 with nice cross rolling, last Madison’s step on Left Backward Inside edge – the edge was done after some moment, not immediately, but Technical specialists counted it all…

In Partial Step Sequence: Key Point 1 from Madison was OK, Key Point 2 from Evan was OK also, in Key Point 3 they both didn’t keep Righ Forward Outside edge during Swing movement and maybe Madison’s Left Backward Inside edge was not done properly (poorly visible while she was mainly hiden behind Evan).

Edges in Step Sequence: Madison’s opening Chocktaw was not done properly (second Left Backward Outside edge was not there). At the end of the Step Sequence Madison’s Mohawk with not good opening edge and no exiting edge. The rest of the turns OK, some of them executed with very good and quite deep edges.

I like the lift…while I have absolutely no idea how is Stepanova & Bukin’s lift connected to their Spanish program, Chock & Bates lift is done into music perfectly (but please, go with the rhythm precisely there).

Shaky first Set of Twizzles by Madison. Nice ice coverage in the first set of Twizzles.

RHYTHM ISSUES!!!! Out of the rhythm in most of Paso steps.

I take Mister Sphilband like a very smart one. He and some other coaches are masters in “hiding things“. Don Quijote is a ballet based on Spanish book, ballet dancers use Spanish costumes, some Spanish movements. What Madison & Evan are doing on the ice is not Spanish dance style, this is Madison’s dance style using from time to time some Spanish movements. It has nothing from feeling of Spanish dancers. But in comparison with other dance couples who really try to portrait Spanish dance style with all deep and passionate feelings and they are not succesfull in it… Madison & Evan’s non Spanish dance style is not that much visible because the program itself is not much Spanish and the couple doesn‘t try to portray Spanish dancers.

I don’t agree with this “hiding“ strategy. Top sport means top athletes and in case of Ice Dance also top artists and dancers. If you don’t know some dance style, you should learn it, not try to hide it behind something what is more close to you. With this strategy Ice Dance stops to be about dancing at all and soon we will have athletes with musicality on the level of 3 000 metres Hurdles athletes.

Overall Chock & Bates‘ music is flirtatious and coquet and showy and Madison suits this very well. I like the first part of the program watching Madison, she goes with music, althought it is not Spanish dance style, it is simply Madison’s dance style.

But since the moment of Paso Pattern Dance… the whole dance starts to be pale, it has no uplifting moments towards the end. Step Sequence is done to dynamic music, but the couple doesn’t produce the same dynamics in movements.

If any dance style needs strong man in the lead, it is Spanish dance style. Evan is unvisible behind Madison.

 

[sisinka]

Maia Shibutani & Alex Shibutani:

Key Points: Pattern Dance Level 2 (only Key Point 3 met), Partial Step Sequence Level 2 (only Key Point 1 done by Maia counted)

In Pattern Dance: In Key Point 1 – Maia didn’t have Right Backward Inside edge in Step 11, where she should change edge from Inside into Outside. Alex looked OK. Key Point 2 – Alex is too close the boards so only finishing Right Backward Outside edge is visible and is done nicely. Key Point 3 – nicely done.

In Partial Step Sequence: Key Point 1 by Maia – once again that Right Backward Inside edge – this time it looked done a little bit better, but this is weak point where the couple can easily loose points. Key Point 2 by Alex – edges were OK, BUT Alex forgot to lift distinctly his free foot before the step 10, this probably caused the loss of Key Point. Key Point 3 – in my eyes it looked OK, maybe Alex kept Right Forward Outside edge for a shorter moment, but I would take this Key Point.

Step Sequence: Opening edge in Bracket (the first turn in Sequence) was not looking like deep edge, maybe no edge by both, but camera showed it from too long distance. Last Mohawk from Maia with only slight edge in opening edge and probably no edge in the second part. Rest of edges OK, some of them nice.

One more rotation from Maia in Twizzles during the first Set. Good ice coverage.
This is not about Shibs, but I think that it is strange that such out of synchro situation like one more rotation by one partner is not punished more (like minus GOE or lost Level). I take this like more visible mistake than for example not keeping elbow above shoulders or not having right angle between thigh and shin. While you can easily loose levels thanks to arm or leg position, one more rotation in Twizzles than your partner performs – and you can still keep Level 4…

BIG RHYTHM ISSUES!!!

Choreography has a touch of Spanish style, but in some moments it looses its smell. The couple needs to be sharper in Paso steps, music becomes stronger then they are in that part.

I like lift.

Last part of the dance – those steps before the lift – was dynamic, it was good.

Overall Shibs try to portray Spanish style and passionate style. Brother & sister relationships looks to be a problem here. Also Spanish style is not close to them, it is visible also…but they are fighting.

Maia has nice movements but it is not visible from 20th row, she should be more expressive and “sure of herself“. Alex was more visible in this point. I would appreciate less mimics and instead of it more power in movements, create a tension in dance.

 

[sisinka]

Alexandra Stepanova & Ivan Bukin:

I hope Alexandra is OK after that bad fall in practise, she is brave girl.

Key Points: Pattern Dance Level 3 (Key Point 1 and 3 met), Partial Step Sequence Level 3 (Key Point 1 and 2 met).

In Pattern Dance: Key Point 1 – Sasha’s Inside Backward edge on Right leg (before changing into Outside edge) was not done visibly, Step 12 in Sasha’s Left Backward Inside edge was only slight. They both especially Ivan didn’t visibly lift free leg after slide steps. Key Point 2 – Ivan didn’t keep the edge on Left leg and edge on Right leg while doing Open Mohawk was not done very well. Key Point 3 – OK.

In Partial Step Sequence: Key Point 1 – once again minor lift of free leg by both of them after slide steps, Sasha’s edges looked OK, but Ivan didn’t fully execute Step 10 - Right Forward Outside edge, he only slightly put a little bit of balance on Right leg while he immediatelly put balance on Left leg. Ivan executed very short Outside edge in Step 11 and immediately went into Step 12 – I wouldn‘t take Ivan’s Key point 2 like properly executed (steps must be also executed in proper number of beats). Key Point 3 – Sasha missed last Left Backward Inside edge.

Step Sequence: I am not sure whether opening turn – Mohawk – was counted because it didn’t start from the midline but from the corner, so only second edge of that turn was done like the opening move for Step Sequence. It would mean that first difficult turn needed for Level would be executed after one third of Step Sequences, but this is not mistake, as I know. Sasha’s Mohawk probably didn’t have proper second edge. Sasha’s second Twizzles had one rotation like Twizzle and second rotation like Piruette. With all of this not counted they would have only 6 difficult turns (they need 7 to get Level 3).

RHYTHM ISSUES in Paso Doble.

The couple is dynamic, but this is not Spanish dance style and they still look…well, I wouldn’t say juniorish, I would rather say very very unmature.

Overall Ivan has better edges and Sasha is more expressive (it is not that much like in Madison and Evan’s case, but for me Sasha is stronger in presentation then Ivan). Sasha & Ivan still look like two skaters performing elements one after the another. I would like to see the couple and the dance instead of two skaters who are executing elements step by step.

 

[dorispulaski]

Re timing: you have to be very careful commenting on timing issues unless you are at the event live. Especially if you are viewing streaming video, the audio and video are very seldom in synch at all.

It is quite shocking that even some television broadcasters do not trouble to synchronize their audio and video signals very well. Internet streamers do not even try, and the interruptions in transmission do not make the situation better. A transmision which is in synch to start may go out of synch when there is a glitch in transmission.

I hope we will have British Eurosport videos fairly soon. They often do a pretty good job with synchronization, particularly when the broadcast is not a live broadcast.