2015-16 SOV Tables for Singles and Pairs released

[Interspectator]

I'd say that both Jason and Yuzu are VERY good at listening and interpreting music. If Jason comes in this season with a quad that is landed on one foot, I'll be a happy spectator.

They are very different performers, but I wouldn't put one ahead of the other in expression or interpretation.
I would put Jason a bit ahead in spins though. --Though, again, both are very good.
In transitions in the LP, last year, Jason was probably ahead of Yuzu, though the marks didn't show it.

 

[hurrah]

Doing the 1Loop+3Sal combination actually became less worthwhile now for females. Females were doing that combination instead of a second +3Toe combo, which allows you to repeat another 3Loop or 3Flip in your program, but it actually never increased your base value and now it actually clearly lowers it because of the increased value of the 3Toe.

For example, look at these two different jump layouts (the other 4 jumps of solo 3Lutz, solo 3Flip, solo 3Loop, and solo 2Axel are the same in both programs):

3Lutz+3Toe
2Axel+3Toe
3Sal+2Toe+2Loop

Base value now is 25.4

and

3Lutz+3Toe
3Loop+1Loop+3Sal
2Axel+2Toe

Base value is now 24.9

You are LOSING points by doing the 1Loop+3Sal combo in a female program. Even if you do a "Gracie Gold" with 3Sal+2Toe+2Toe as your 3-jump combo, it's still worth exactly the same as doing the 1Loop+3Sal combo. The only way this combination is worthwhile for a female program, is if you are doing multiple jumps of 3Axel difficultly or higher in your program, because then the 1Loop+3Sal combo is actually allowing you to get an extra jump into the program that you wouldn't be able to fit otherwise. Good luck doing multiple jumps of 3Axel difficulty or higher, plus all of the other jumps and combinations, as a female skater. You'd have to be Midori Ito in peak form.

Still, in the free, it would be better to do:

3flip/3lutz-3loop
3lutz/3flip-1loop-3salchow (2nd half)
2axel-3toeloop (2nd half)

then you've got four more jump passes to do:
3axel
3flip or 3lutz
3loop
bonus 2axel in the second half with great GOEs

So ultimately, the increase in 3toeloop and 3salchow value will most benefit the skater who can do the full set of triples and 3loop in combination with another triple jump.

If the 3toeloop-3toeloop combo is used in the short, I do hope that this will negatively impact the skater's PCS, since she is demonstrating less variety in her technical skills.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

If the 3toeloop-3toeloop combo is used in the short, I do hope that this will negatively impact the skater's PCS, since she is demonstrating less variety in her technical skills.

But where in the ISU guidelines is it spelled out that a more ambitious technical layout is rewarded with PCS. Which component would that apply to? In fact isn't the opposite true? Executing a well done 3t-3t vs a less well done 3z-3t will show up as a PCS advantage in P/E at the very least.

 

[hurrah]

But where in the ISU guidelines is it spelled out that a more ambitious technical layout is rewarded with PCS. Which component would that apply to? In fact isn't the opposite true? Executing a well done 3t-3t vs a less well done 3z-3t will show up as a PCS advantage in P/E at the very least.

I said, I hope. They have made under-rotation penalty less severe so.... I don't know. I think the details are still getting worked out, but I do think the base point changes have got to do with trying to get skaters to tag on something other than a 3toe or 2toe as their second jump.

I do think that the increase in the 3toe will encourage ladies skaters to do 3toe-3toe in the short, as I said. However, the short program is only one-third of the game. In the other two-thirds, namely the free program, if you do a 3toe-3toe, you're basically giving up the possibility of doing a more lucrative layout.

I also hope that the changes will mean that step sequence and spins will be marked more assiduously from now on.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I said, I hope. They have made under-rotation penalty less severe so.... I don't know. I think the details are still getting worked out, but I do think the base point changes have got to do with trying to get skaters to tag on something other than a 3toe or 2toe as their second jump.

I don't disagree in principal mind you. I was simply curious of how we could actually get there...the legal way

 

[Jaana]

Adam Rippon must be doing the happy dance

Yeah, I guess so, LOL. I really wonder whether these changes have been specifically created to benefit US skaters as the Worlds will be held in USA next season? Politics, politics.....

 

[gravy]

Yeah, I guess so, LOL. I really wonder whether these changes have been specifically created to benefit US skaters as the Worlds will be held in USA next season? Politics, politics.....

I think those changes were made as a response to the men's event at Worlds. How Yuzuru and Denis scored that high with major visible errors in the SP is .

 

[Blades of Passion]

Still, in the free, it would be better to do:

3flip/3lutz-3loop
3lutz/3flip-1loop-3salchow
2axel-3toeloop

then you've got four more jump passes to do:
3axel
3flip or 3lutz
3loop
2axel

It's such a big risk for barely any payoff, expecting a female to do 3Axel and three back-end Triple jump combinations with no underrotation calls. I guess this is what Mao Asada plans for the season? Unfortunately for her, that plan will almost surely drown her against Tuktamesheva, who will go out there and get more points with a 3Toe+3Toe and a 3Sal+2Axel sequence that are in no danger of being called underrotated and get +GOE more easily...

Adam Rippon must be doing the happy dance

This rule update just gives him less credit for his 4Lutz attempts, since the -GOE has been increased. Unless he can do it with just a single < call in the LP, with good flow out on the landing, and no other visible error on the attempt...something he has yet to do in competition.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I'd say that both Jason and Yuzu are VERY good at listening and interpreting music. If Jason comes in this season with a quad that is landed on one foot, I'll be a happy spectator.

They are very different performers, but I wouldn't put one ahead of the other in expression or interpretation.
I would put Jason a bit ahead in spins though. --Though, again, both are very good.
In transitions in the LP, last year, Jason was probably ahead of Yuzu, though the marks didn't show it.

Thanks for saying something not Yuzu-vs-Jason-esque, since the following discussions to these rules are making my Yuzu+Jason fan heart ache a little

I'm a little surprised people seem to think these rule changes will affect the men's field that much at all. The men are getting 160-180 point scores, 1 point more or less for any element isn't going to be the deciding factor for all the results now.
Also, the men will stick to at least one quad thanks to the zayak rule. They have 8 jumping passes. If they can at least do one combo with a triple at the end, they can put 9 triples in (or obviously 10, if you have 2 combos with a triple as the 2nd jump). Bt with only 6 different triple jumps, you can at max do 8 in the LP (by repeating 2 of them). So one slot is left. The option left are a quad... or a 2A. Now even a perfect 2A with +3 GOE is only going to get 3.3+1.5=4.8 points. A quad with a fall still gets 10.3-4-1=5.3 points. So it's still the more valuable option, especially since you can potentially score a lot higher with a quad or getting +3's for 2As isn't exactly common.

The UR vs. fall discussion is really a YMMV thing. I'd rather see UR but otherwise okay than a fall. So I think that rule actually makes sense.

For the ladies field though, the changes are way more stupid. Bye bye my last hope of 3-3Lo combos

 

[darazam]

Actually these changes don't change much as some tend to think.
If you apply new BVs and GOE to protocols from Shanghai WC, all guys except Amodio and Kovtun will still remain at the same places (these two will swap places).
Hanyu loses whopping 0.82 in total (Fernandez 0.78, Ten 0.73).
The biggest gainer is Amodio (+0.66).

 

[hurrah]

It's such a big risk for barely any payoff, expecting a female to do 3Axel and three back-end Triple jump combinations with no underrotation calls. I guess this is what Mao Asada plans for the season? Unfortunately for her, that plan will almost surely drown her against Tuktamesheva, who will go out there and get more points with a 3Toe+3Toe and a 3Sal+2Axel sequence that are in no danger of being called underrotated and get +GOE more easily...

Liza recently spoke of trying to incorporate two 3axels in her program, which means that she wouldn't be able to do a 3toe-3toe as I presume that she would prefer to repeat her 3lutz. So if Liza wants to increase her base value drastically, she's gonna have to give up her 3toe-3toe and try and do something that is very, very high-risk---putting in two 3axels and two 3lutzes, two of them in combination---so that even she will be at risk of under-rotating something, or worse yet, falling. So at the end of the day, in terms of the Mao vs Liza debate, it's actually not all that important that the base value of the 3toeloop has increased. And as for how the increase in 3salchow is going to advantage Eliza or Mao, if Mao masters 1loop-3salchow, it won't really matter all that much either. Indeed, the salchow increase will help Mao more because Liza's salchow is a sequence. TBH, as a Mao fan, I'm more worried about the wrong edge penalty, more than anything else. I pray that Mao will get that lutz.

 

[Interspectator]

Actually these changes don't change much as some tend to think.
If you apply new BVs and GOE to protocols from Shanghai WC, all guys except Amodio and Kovtun will still remain at the same places (these two will swap places).
Hanyu loses whopping 0.82 in total (Fernandez 0.78, Ten 0.73).
The biggest gainer is Amodio (+0.66).

Poor Kovtun.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Liza recently spoke of trying to incorporate two 3axels in her program, which means that she wouldn't be able to do a 3toe-3toe as I presume that she would prefer to repeat her 3lutz.

So she'll just do 2Axel+3Toe combination then and probably leave out the Flip.

3Axel+2Toe
3Axel
3Lutz+2Toe+2Loop
-----
2Axel+3Toe
3Lutz
3Loop
3Sal

That would still be worth more than Mao executing Triple Axel + three different back-end Triple combinations with no <, since Mao's Lutz will get !

However, if Mao really could do such a program, it would only be a minor difference in the jump scores and her PCS should put her ahead. That's a huge 'if'.

I predict that < calls will kill Mao in this battle and the programs will be less interesting then ever.

 

[hurrah]

So she'll just do 2Axel+3Toe combination then and probably leave out the Flip.

That would still be worth more than Mao executing Triple Axel + three different back-end Triple combinations with no <, since Mao's Lutz will get !

If Liza can do that layout without under-rotating, falling or singling any of her jump passes herself, I suppose she will beat a lutzless-Mao, jump-wise (only). :yes: (On any given day, she would not be able to beat Mao's spins, step sequence and PCS.)

I'm sooo excited to have Mao back in competition!! We don't know how her practices are going, but the fact that her team decided to have her participate in GP must mean that she is doing well. I have high hopes! And I can't wait to see her in action.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I'm sooo excited to have Mao back in competition!! We don't know how her practices are going, but the fact that her team decided to have her participate in GP must mean that she is doing well. I have high hopes! And I can't wait to see her in action.

I hope she somehow has great programs and it is accurately reflected in the PCS. The sport really needs it.

Actually these changes don't change much as some tend to think.
If you apply new BVs and GOE to protocols from Shanghai WC, all guys except Amodio and Kovtun will still remain at the same places (these two will swap places).
Hanyu loses whopping 0.82 in total (Fernandez 0.78, Ten 0.73).
The biggest gainer is Amodio (+0.66).

Well what you really have to look at is the extra they are losing from the mistakes. The increased 3Toe + 3Sal base value doesn't matter in most of these cases with the guys, since they all do them in the same amount in each program and that amount comparatively remains the same.

Hanyu loses 1.63 points between SP and LP for his Quad mistakes
Denis Ten loses 1.37 points
Ferandez loses 1 point
Kovtun loses 1 point

Amodio loses .2 in the SP and gains it back in the LP from smaller reduction in points for turning his 4Sal into a 3Sal.

In the end, the only difference in placement would be Kovtun dropping 1 spot, by .05 points behind Adam Rippon.

This Quad update is definitely just a baby step towards the way all jumps should be scored and there are so many other moving pieces in the scoring system as a whole that need to be changed, which would very much influence the direction skaters take.

What I do firmly believe is that a great, perfectly skated SP + LP without a Quad deserved to win 2015 Worlds. If you take Brian Boitano at 1988 Olympics and update his SP to include the 3Flip+3Toe and 3Lutz he showed so excellently in the LP, he's your winner. That was better than what the guys put out last season and until the scoring system reflects such a thing, it has yet to be the correct scoring system.

 

[largeman]

I predict that < calls will kill Mao in this battle and the programs will be less interesting then ever.

My fear as well. I was just looking at this practice video and at 2:16 - 2:20 you can just see that UR in its typical fashion. Man, how cool would it be if she could fix this problem.

 

[tripletwizzle]

I may be in the minority but if you rotate the quad (or any other jump) but don't land it, can you really say you have that jump? I'm reminded of the way Yuzuru used to keep throwing himself into 4S knowing he would fall but knowing he'd get credit anyway. Imo if you don't land jumps you shouldn't get any credit at all, but then that takes us back in time technically b/c ppl won't try things....

 

[Sandpiper]

I'm concerned because it will encourage skaters to master UR landed quad. It can beat Chan , Yuzu, Denis and Javi who has fallen on their quads before . But knowing these four, I don't think they will back down on full rotated quad lol...so we shall see how this new rules impact later. It will be great for Kozuka too :yay:.

Can't wait for the new season to come, I think we shall see more quads attempts

Now, I'm hardly a technical expert, but isn't much easier to land a fully-rotated quad--or a fully rotated anything--rather than a UR jump? The blade likes to go backwards, not forwards or on a curve. I don't see anyone in their right mind wanting to UR a quad, because it makes other mistakes more likely (shaky landing, two foot, even falling).

Maybe chronic underrotators (e.g. Mirai Nagasu) would find it easier to land hooked jumps due to long years of habit. But since we're talking quads, we're talking the men's field... The only person I can think of who lands less rotated quads better than somewhat-rotated ones is Adam Rippon (who can land either clean 4Lz<< or 4Lz< with a step-out... but neither option will be helped much by the new rules, so I don't see what's the problem?) Jason Brown's quad at 4CC would receive no benefit at all; not only was it <<, the landing was also two-footed and messy and received terrible GOE.

 

[xibsuarz]

Now, I'm hardly a technical expert, but isn't much easier to land a fully-rotated quad--or a fully rotated anything--rather than a UR jump? The blade likes to go backwards, not forwards or on a curve. I don't see anyone in their right mind wanting to UR a quad, because it makes other mistakes more likely (shaky landing, two foot, even falling).

Maybe chronic underrotators (e.g. Mirai Nagasu) would find it easier to land hooked jumps due to long years of habit. But since we're talking quads, we're talking the men's field... The only person I can think of who lands less rotated quads better than somewhat-rotated ones is Adam Rippon (who can land either clean 4Lz<< or 4Lz< with a step-out... but neither option will be helped much by the new rules, so I don't see what's the problem?) Jason Brown's quad at 4CC would receive no benefit at all; not only was it <<, the landing was also two-footed and messy and received terrible GOE.

I'm not a technical expert either but as you've said, I think the UR, even if it has a higher BV now, the GOEs are going to hurt it, even more so if the judges decide to go hard on a certain skater. I think that, points-wise, it's still better to fall on a quad rather than UR it, the thing is that the difference has been reduced (I would have preferred even harsher quad-fall penalties than raising the UR BV since both mistakes reflect inappropriate technique, but that's just me). I think these changes, more than promoting UR, will make skaters think twice about including 2 or 3 quads, now that there is a slightly higher risk (which in some tight results may not be so slightly), the may only want to include more than one quad if they feel really comfortable with it.

 

[TMC]

I'm not a technical expert either but as you've said, I think the UR, even if it has a higher BV now, the GOEs are going to hurt it, even more so if the judges decide to go hard on a certain skater. I think that, points-wise, it's still better to fall on a quad rather than UR it, the thing is that the difference has been reduced (I would have preferred even harsher quad-fall penalties than raising the UR BV since both mistakes reflect inappropriate technique, but that's just me). I think these changes, more than promoting UR, will make skaters think twice about including 2 or 3 quads, now that there is a slightly higher risk (which in some tight results may not be so slightly), the may only want to include more than one quad if they feel really comfortable with it.

This is what I'm thinking, too...and kinda hoping