2016 US Nationals Senior Men SP
- Thread starter dorispulaski
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- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
Has Nathan competed as a senior outside of Nationals? I was thinking that Ricky and Keegan both competed as Seniors when they were still Juniors at nationals the year that Ricky got the Silver and Ross got the Bronze. They same year that dreamy Ryan Bradley Won. 2011......
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- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
No, he hasn't. He was supposed to be at Tallinn but he withdrew.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2012
Is 3 spots that important? What stikes me more is how far behind the US men are. The top 4-5 men are pulling away from the international field. The Russians are lagging and we're even further back. A 4T is kind of like a 3A 15 years ago. You kind of have to have one to be in it. Max is kind of like a Russian. Unlikely either will take a medal. It's a longer term problem and unfortunately will eliminate certain body types and artistic skaters.
I am sorrry about this jump craze. After a few skates of 2-3 quads they all look the same. They swallow up everything else about the skating.
I am sorrry about this jump craze. After a few skates of 2-3 quads they all look the same. They swallow up everything else about the skating.
Yes, in club competitions held in the U.S. this summer. Not in ISU international events. He competed as a senior at the both The Broadmoor Open and Glacier Falls. Won both of them--over Grant, Jason, Ross, Timothy, Brendan, etc. It was very early in the season, obviously, and most people did not look ready. (Grant did, btw). Some participants only competed one portion of the competitions. Nathan won both the short and long programs. He was scheduled to make his senior international debut at the Talinn Trophy mid-season, but he pulled out. He did perform the quad in the short program at Glacier Falls, and scored in the mid-80's with it. (About 7 points higher than he scored with a clean short in Colorado Springs on the JGP where a quad is not permitted). The only time I've seen him miss the quad toe this season was during the JGPF LP--immediately after the quad sal he had just added. He struggles more with the triple axle. I believe he's hit 6 of 8 since the start of the JGP.
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- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
After getting a good look at Nathan, I don't think we're as far behind as you think. I don't think a US Man is going to medal this season but with Max's improved Components added with his powerful jumps, I won't count him out. Here's the thing. Our Men are losing to GREAT Skater's. It's not like they're choking and giving things away by skating badly. IMO, Patrick, Hanyu, and Javi are all Hall Of Fame level skater's and our Men should be very happy if any of them were able to match Jason's 4th place finish from last season. Good Luck and great skating to all.
First things first. Go Max!!! I really hope we're in for some exciting skating at Nationals...........
I love this line because it is so true.
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2014
Agree that to expect the American men to defeat hanyu, chan, and Fernandez is a tall order..... But I am upset none of them have been able to do as well as shoma uno, boyang jin (quads aside, his pcs is low and scores are defeatable), or Daisuke Murakami. In fact, although Jason got 4th at world's, there is no reason why an Adam rippon or joshua farris or max aaron should be losing to a Nam Nguyen or a Sergei voronov or even misha ge (who I love).....
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
And Max didn't. He beat Shoma at Skate America, where he also beat Menshov, Amodio, Ten, Bychenko, Han Yan, Pitkeev, Mura, and yes, Miner and Brown. Oh, and didn't we know it, because the whinging dragged on for days.
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2014
I'm a max fan, so you can stop doing your usual thing where you assume we all hate him and worship Nathan Chen or something because I can promise you I wasn't "whinging" about it.
I said "doing better", not "beat once" by the way. As in, things like getting into the Grand prix final and consistently putting up scores across a season or multiple seasons, not a couple flash in the pan victories. Jason brown is the only one who fits this criteria among the American men, and just barely if that.
Of course there is a reason. It's a high risk sport based on performance, execution, and technical difficulty. Nam and Sergei have rotations up the ying yang. Misha is a gorgeous performer. But this is the men's event. The results are highly varied because the risk is incredible. And the pressure takes its toll. Ross defeated Shoma this season as well. As did Timothy Dolensky of all people. And Josh defeated Murakami last season. In this discipline most guys are finishing somewhere between 4th and 29th. And the distance isn't nearly as far away as many people think. Peter Liebers went from 5th in the SP at the 2014 Olympics to 29th in the SP at Worlds in 2015. Misha Ge went from 27th in the World to 6th. In one year! And he certainly isn't the most cataclysmic skater I can think of. Takahiko Kozuka from 19th in the SP to 9th in the LP at last year's Worlds. Mura from 23rd to 12th (this is a guy who won SC and defeated Fernandez and Hanyu last season). Voronov from 4th to 17th. Kovtun 16th to 6th. Han Yan from 5th to 13th. The Japanese team did not qualify three members last season. They had 4 winners on the Grand Prix! (And don't tell me it was all because Machida retired. If he'd had a great skate at the GPF or Nationals, he might have felt like seeing where that gorgeous LP could take him).
The top U.S. men have been very close internationally. If anything, they seem to be getting closer. And the young kids have moved up this season with lots of difficulty. This happens every generation, especially during the second year of a quadrennium. The younger guys see what the top athletes are doing. They start training those skills at a younger age. And then they move up--with a lot to prove and absolutely nothing to lose--and we get to watch. We get to see who steps up. Who gets out. Who crumbles when the pressure is on. Who turns out to be just as much headcase material as the previous generation. Which experienced guys have the performance skills and competitive goods to make the young ones look young. And who--wonder of wonders--defies expectations. Max did it at Skate America. Jason did it at Worlds. Josh did it at Four Continents. Nathan has won everything he has competed in this season. I LOVE watching the U.S. guys. They are very competitive with each other.
Will any of them step up and crack the top six this season at Worlds? It will take a miracle. And, yes, I think a miracle is possible.
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Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. They are competitive with each other.
How the guys at that level will end up at Worlds will depend on who's there and how well they each skate on those two days.
In some ways, the skaters from smaller federations have an advantage in that they get more international opportunities which makes it easier to build international momentum. For those from larger federations including the US, with several skaters at approximately the same top level, regardless of what happens on the Grand Prix etc., they still need to prove themselves against each other at Nationals to get the opportunity to skate at Worlds or 4Cs/Euros at all or to get good assignments the next fall. So that's an extra high-stress competition and a bad week at Nationals can have significant effect on the rest of their career for another year or more.
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2014
I get it. They're generally competitive with those folks. What I'm saying is given the level of talent, potential, and polish skaters like Adam, Ricky, Max, joshua, Ross, (and Jeremy) have, they shouldn't just be competitive. They've had enough talent to be considered in a tier above but have failed to live up to any expectations.
It's the same thing with ashley and Gracie when compared to the Russians or satoko and Rika Hongo. Especially when it comes to gracie.
Through all of these Americans' international careers, there have been years (for most, multiple years!!!) where they could've cemented themselves in a class above their competitors if they were just consistent. Especially in the past when quads and triple-triples were less required as they have been for the past two seasons. Not even asking them to pull out triple axels or 100% perfection beyond their normal skating. But they failed to live up to it.... Even they have more talent than others.
As a result, somehow lesser skaters have been ranked above them or perceived on the same level.
My favorite quote from Bela Karolyi:
It's not the best athlete who wins. It's the best competitor.
I'm not sure how you are judging "talent." Since it's pretty obvious that Ricky, Adam, and Ross have never had enough technical talent to consistently rotate a quadruple jump. They have a lot of talent in other aspects of their performance, but their jump errors aren't just mental or a failure to perform in the moment. They aren't landing all their quad jumps in practice sessions--at least not any of the ones I've seen prior to competitions--and just missing them when the pressure is on. They really don't have a mastery over the quad. They do it because they have to and they benefit with points over guys who can't even get close. Back in 2010-2012, an almost-rotated quad was enough to win Skate America. In fact, a two-footed quad might even win the GPF. Not today.
Now, if you want to discuss athletes who have been scoring lower than their potential this season, Nam at Cup of Russia . . .
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
The US men are competitive internationally right now?
This season, the top score by a US man is Max's 259 at Skate America. That's 71 points less than Hanyu (330), 33 points less than Javi (293), 18 points less than Shoma (277), and 7 points behind Boyang Jin (266). Adam and Ross both have season high totals between 240-250.
Of course a US guy could medal against one of the top guys on any given day, but to me being competitive means you have a strong shot at beating them every time out. The fact that Ross beat Shoma Uno at Salt Lake City last fall doesn't mean much when you consider what Shoma has done since then.
I'm not dissing US men, just trying to be realistic. And Im not considering Jason & Josh because they're out.
This season, the top score by a US man is Max's 259 at Skate America. That's 71 points less than Hanyu (330), 33 points less than Javi (293), 18 points less than Shoma (277), and 7 points behind Boyang Jin (266). Adam and Ross both have season high totals between 240-250.
Of course a US guy could medal against one of the top guys on any given day, but to me being competitive means you have a strong shot at beating them every time out. The fact that Ross beat Shoma Uno at Salt Lake City last fall doesn't mean much when you consider what Shoma has done since then.
I'm not dissing US men, just trying to be realistic. And Im not considering Jason & Josh because they're out.
But as far as the US men vs. the Russian men go, at least in the GP, here is how they ranked:
8 Max AARON USA (2nd alternate to GPF)
9 Adian PITKEEV RUS (3rd alternate to GPF)
10 Adam RIPPON USA
11 Grant HOCHSTEIN USA
12 Ross MINER USA
13 Maxim KOVTUN RUS
14 Konstantin MENSHOV RUS
15 Sergei VORONOV RUS
16 Alexander PETROV RUS
17 Takahito MURA JPN
18 Jason BROWN USA
19 Nam NGUYEN CAN
20 Denis TEN KAZ
21 Mikhail KOLYADA RUS
22 Keiji TANAKA JPN
23 Michal BREZINA CZE
24 Richard DORNBUSH USA
25 Michael Christian MARTINEZ PHI
26 Timothy DOLENSKY USA
8 Max AARON USA (2nd alternate to GPF)
9 Adian PITKEEV RUS (3rd alternate to GPF)
10 Adam RIPPON USA
11 Grant HOCHSTEIN USA
12 Ross MINER USA
13 Maxim KOVTUN RUS
14 Konstantin MENSHOV RUS
15 Sergei VORONOV RUS
16 Alexander PETROV RUS
17 Takahito MURA JPN
18 Jason BROWN USA
19 Nam NGUYEN CAN
20 Denis TEN KAZ
21 Mikhail KOLYADA RUS
22 Keiji TANAKA JPN
23 Michal BREZINA CZE
24 Richard DORNBUSH USA
25 Michael Christian MARTINEZ PHI
26 Timothy DOLENSKY USA
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