2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[skylark]

Mirai fans are cray cray and always have been. Just look at their reaction to the perfectly justified and correct decision to bump her in 2014 (albeit if they were to have anger ever over it, it should be today, not then, as taking Edmunds over her is heavily inconsistent with Miner-Zhou, but that is a whole other topic), and their continued whining she didnt win the Olympic bronze in 2014 despite that she missed by a whopping 13 points or so. I would ignore them, they arent worth the time of day, never have been.

I think you mean she didn't win Olympic bronze in 2010.

It might be more precise to say that many Mirai fans are cray-cray (not all, as is implied). Or (I'm admonishing myself to be fair) ... it may be just the highly vocal Mirai fans. But you make valid points about so very many of the comments about Mirai, whether they're here at GS or at other places in the universe. The continued, vocal angst (and its accompanying bitterness against Wagner) about 2014 did a disservice to Mirai herself, and it probably held her back over the past 4 years. But I'm really happy that she was able to rise above her "story" and the way it was perpetuated by so many of her fans.

Mirai really is a great example of perseverance of training and of spirit ... qualities that Ashley has praised her for.

 

[ice coverage]

... It might be more precise to say that many Mirai fans are cray-cray (not all, as is implied). Or (I'm admonishing myself to be fair) ... it may be just the highly vocal Mirai fans. But you make valid points about so very many of the comments about Mirai, whether they're here at GS or at other places in the universe. The continued, vocal angst (and its accompanying bitterness against Wagner) about 2014 did a disservice to Mirai herself, and it probably held her back over the past 4 years. But I'm really happy that she was able to rise above her "story" and the way it was perpetuated by so many of her fans.

Mirai really is a great example of perseverance of training and of spirit ... qualities that Ashley has praised her for.

There also was a lot of continued vocal angst and criticism against Mirai (related to 2014).

So I will make note again: Many fans of all kinds -- including an anti-Mirai faction -- can be OTT and extreme.

 

[Parsifal3363]

Koralai, I adore your take on this and could not agree more, although I intend to take it a step further.

People who scornfully dismiss this particular Cinderella music and movie as "oh, Disney princess, how juvenile" have probably not seen the movie and have no idea how mature the themes are. hmmm. Kenneth Branagh directed. Chris Weitz wrote the script; he also wrote this year's The Mountain Between Us.

About time and the ticking clock: One of the most interesting things in the movie is how much time Cinderella has to escape, once the midnight chimes start to gong. It's one of those huge clocks for the village, and the striking chimes are very slow. She runs, but in a circuitous route. A small but key moment in the movie is that when she has the opportunity, she does a double-take, right in the middle of her flight, to go back and tell the King how much his son loves him. It fits right in with the motto of the movie, "have courage and be kind."

So I think there's a double meaning to your words: an awareness that the moment needed to realize a dream is fleeting, and that if you don't seize it while you are still within it, that moment may pass forever. Here's my take: The moment is now, and yet there's still plenty of time within that moment to complete whatever calls out to be completed, and still be kind. The theme is foreshadowed earlier, when the tiny (withered-like-a-smiling-apple) crone to whom Cinderella gives a bowl of milk says that such a small act of kindness can mean everything ... then whirls herself into a fairy godmother, complete with a shower of stars.

Thanks so much for writing your thoughts here about Bradie's program and how much deeper it goes.

Dear Klutzy, Koralai, Topaz Emerald, and Skylark:

I found your conversation about Bradie Tennell’s long program just delightful. She's said herself that it’s quite personal to her and that, at the championships, she skated it with all her heart. We’ll have to wait for her own words, of course, to know what that means, but certainly your insight dispels any notion that it can be easily dismissed as some "juniorish" thing. Indeed, I should think that it must carry much emotional weight, as do fairy tales and all things from which dreams are made.

Many thanks.

 

[b-man]

Well, I am a pretty rabid Mirai fan, so I will jump in here.

I thought Mirai should have won the bronze in 2010. She was a faster skater in 2010, and in many ways a better performer, yet got hosed in PCS. The medal winners were pre ordained in 2010, Why shouldn't fans of the 4th place finisher be upset?

2014. I was one of the biggest complainers on GS. However, I thought Wagner should have been added, replacing Edmunds who had little senior experience and edged Mirai by 3 points with questionable high PCS. My wrath was directed entirely at USFS, not at Ashley. I was told repeatedly on this forum in 2014 that it was perfectly fine to dump the 3rd place skater, but it was positively impossible to dump second place Edmunds. Think Ross Miner.

2018 I was in San Jose all week, and this year Bradie is a jumping machine who earned a well deserved win. I watched a number of practices, and Bradie made no obvious jumping mistakes all week. I am very happy that Mirai made the team, and have no problems with Bradie's win.

 

[qwerty]

That was prior to Ms. Tennel's rise as the U.S. No.1. Now that she is the indisputable No. 1 lady from the U.S., the question we can ask is:

1. Are her skating movements stiffer than Gracie Gold's?
2. Are her skating movements stiffer than Ashley Wagner's?

I chose stiffness since that is the criticism most often levied upon Ms. Tennel's skating. My answers to the above questions are resounding no's. Tennel's skating is no stiffer than Gold's or Wagner's. At some criteria of PCS she exels: I would put her Transition, P/E, and Skating Skills above those of Gold's and Wagner's. At others (Choreo and Interpretation) it is a wash.

If you agree with me with the above points, then now you can take the scores Gold or Wagner received in the international events and extrapolate them with successfully executed tech contents by Tennel. If Gold or Wagner landed jumps like Tennel does, and if they received all the levels for their elements like Tennel dos, what score would they have received? Would those scores have been competitive with the Russians' or the Japenese's?

My answer to the hypothetical question is a yes. And as I mentioned earlier I see comparable shortcomings in Ms. Tennel's international competitors.

Is that you, Morozombie?

 

[leafygreens]

I was told repeatedly on this forum in 2014 that it was perfectly fine to dump the 3rd place skater, but it was positively impossible to dump second place Edmunds. Think Ross Miner.

I remember this myth going around. 2nd place was too high to dump. 3rd place is the one who gets cut. Can you imagine if the results were Gracie-Ashley-Mirai-Polina - they would have never dumped Mirai for Polina. Mirai got dumped for Ashley because Mirai was 3rd. But it should have been Polina who is 2nd gets bumped for Ashley. They knew that putting in Ashley was going to rock the boat so hard that they didn't want to rock it more by moving 2nd place. Even this week Johnny said it would be unseemly to skip over the 2nd place men's skater. The media was saying in 2014 that even the winner is not promised to go, so I don't know how "2nd place goes" came about. The selection is still very back room, 6.0 shadiness and there's no reason it should be with (more) objective IJS scoring.

 

[eggnogkitty]

Well, I am a pretty rabid Mirai fan, so I will jump in here.

I thought Mirai should have won the bronze in 2010. She was a faster skater in 2010, and in many ways a better performer, yet got hosed in PCS. The medal winners were pre ordained in 2010, Why shouldn't fans of the 4th place finisher be upset?

If you lost a placement by over 10 points the likelihood you deserved it are almost nil, particularly if the other skater isnt a known judges pet (which Joannie certainly wasnt). In fact this is one of the only cases I can recall this has happened. Even Chans string of many controversial wins that people complain about were all within a single point digit. Also their combined TES over the 2 programs was less than a point apart, so arguing Mirai deserved the bronze is like arguing she is the skater who merited the higher PCS of the two, which is with all due respect utterly laughable, even if arguing the gap could have been less than it was in Joannies favor is reasonable.

2014. I was one of the biggest complainers on GS. However, I thought Wagner should have been added, replacing Edmunds who had little senior experience and edged Mirai by 3 points with questionable high PCS. My wrath was directed entirely at USFS, not at Ashley. I was told repeatedly on this forum in 2014 that it was perfectly fine to dump the 3rd place skater, but it was positively impossible to dump second place Edmunds. Think Ross Miner.

Hence why I said logically it would make more sense to be upset about the decision seeing the inconsistency with Miner-Zhou and Edmunds-Nagasu today, NOT the ridiculous wrath against the very deserving Wagner at the time. And you can imagine Nagasu being to 3 Olympics and Wagner who is overall a better and far more successful skater being to 0. That would be the real crime. It is already kind of strange Nagasu is getting more Olympics than Wagner as it is.

 

[b-man]

Mirai edged Rochette by about a point in TES, so Rochette's statistical edge was 100% due to PCS. Interesting, Mirai got a huge PCS boost at worlds in Torino the next month, that is, she got a boost in Torino in part for her performances in Vancouver. Too bad judges can't give credit for PCS when it is earned, but must wait until the next competition to give the boost. Then you have the competition in Canada. I've been to enough competitions in Canada to know that to win in Canada, you can't just outskate a Canadian opponent, but you must outskate them by a lot. Then you have the very sad passing of Joannie's mother. Even the US media were saying it would be unfortunate under these circumstances if Joannie didn't medal. The US media had some genuine empathy for Rochette, but also knew the fix was in and were preparing the US audience for the obvious, Mirai wasn't going to medal no matter how well she skated.

Mirai was 2nd at nationals in 2010, 3rd in 2014 and 2nd this year, and should be a 3 time Olympian. Wagner was 3rd (only 2 slots), 4th and 4th. I was all for Wagner bumping Edmunds in 2014 and being on the team. Wagner, (along with Gold), were dominant figures from 2012 through 2016, but not before 2012, and not the last 2 years.

 

[icellist]

anyone have links to gala performances?

 

[klutzy]

I remember this myth going around. 2nd place was too high to dump. 3rd place is the one who gets cut. Can you imagine if the results were Gracie-Ashley-Mirai-Polina - they would have never dumped Mirai for Polina. Mirai got dumped for Ashley because Mirai was 3rd. But it should have been Polina who is 2nd gets bumped for Ashley. They knew that putting in Ashley was going to rock the boat so hard that they didn't want to rock it more by moving 2nd place. Even this week Johnny said it would be unseemly to skip over the 2nd place men's skater. The media was saying in 2014 that even the winner is not promised to go, so I don't know how "2nd place goes" came about. The selection is still very back room, 6.0 shadiness and there's no reason it should be with (more) objective IJS scoring.

No, it shouldn't have been--and Polina showed it by having a top 10 finish at the Olympics and performing well until her injury. Given that her injury may be career-ending, I find the lack of graciousness over this four years later kind of awful. And, yes, it's this sort of thing that makes Mirai fans hard to take. I admire Mirai Nagasu's grit and talent. I don't admire fans who can't see that there's more than on one side to this.

 

[klutzy]

Dear Klutzy, Koralai, Topaz Emerald, and Skylark:

I found your conversation about Bradie Tennell’s long program just delightful. She's said herself that it’s quite personal to her and that, at the championships, she skated it with all her heart. We’ll have to wait for her own words, of course, to know what that means, but certainly your insight dispels any notion that it can be easily dismissed as some "juniorish" thing. Indeed, I should think that it must carry much emotional weight, as do fairy tales and all things from which dreams are made.

Many thanks.

Thank you (and, wow, you thanked all of us by name, that's so nice. )

Yes, I think if you notice that the center of the program is the clock ticking--time is running out--then it all makes a thematic sense that ties it closely to one's career as a skater. I think people are misled about the program's sophistication because A) Bradie's not yet that expressive a skater and B) it's Disney music--so people think "childish". I wonder if there'd be a different perception of the program if Bradie had skated to Prokofiev's Cinderella or even Rossini's La Cenerentola. (Someone should skate to Rossini, by the way.) I think, though, the urgent clock-ticking music was probably considered central to the program.

Having hashed it out with the other posters here, I'm not surprised to hear that Bradie considers the program personal to her. It makes me wonder how many other programs actually have as *much* depth to them. The ShibSibs "Fix You" had a storyline. So have some of the P/C programs--Build a Home about moving to Canada has a similar eloquence. So, maybe a bit more in ice dance.

But I think people are dismissive because--eh, Disney music. I felt that way. It's not deep music, but somehow there's a program with some depth to it.

 

[stella luna]

I think you mean she didn't win Olympic bronze in 2010.

It might be more precise to say that many Mirai fans are cray-cray (not all, as is implied). Or (I'm admonishing myself to be fair) ... it may be just the highly vocal Mirai fans. But you make valid points about so very many of the comments about Mirai, whether they're here at GS or at other places in the universe. The continued, vocal angst (and its accompanying bitterness against Wagner) about 2014 did a disservice to Mirai herself, and it probably held her back over the past 4 years. But I'm really happy that she was able to rise above her "story" and the way it was perpetuated by so many of her fans.

Mirai really is a great example of perseverance of training and of spirit ... qualities that Ashley has praised her for.

But she is on the Oly team, not Wagner. It seems she wasn't held back by anything at all.

 

[flipsydoodle]

Something like this would be very mature on Bradie: https://i.pinimg.com/236x/8d/99/ae/...0bad2046c--skating-dresses-figure-skating.jpg

A Tonya plunge? Shudder.....

Karen has a black dress like that.I cringe every time I see her in it, because it’s so unnecessary to dress in a way that makes everyone focus on cleavage and boobage.

Bradie seems to like the horizontal cut about level with the armpits. It looks great on her. That cut minimizes torso length if you have a long torso. The v-neck-to-navel style makes a person look super long in the torso and with short legs.

 

[frida80]

NBC sports has taken down most of the HD videos from nationals. That includes some that were broadcast in Japan. If you want to see them, I suggest you act fast.

 

[Shayuki]

NBC sports has taken down most of the HD videos from nationals. That includes some that were broadcast in Japan. If you want to see them, I suggest you act fast.

They actually have the right to take down videos that were Broadcast in Japan? How does that work... I'd get it if they were their videos.

 

[skylark]

There also was a lot of continued vocal angst and criticism against Mirai (related to 2014).

I don't recall seeing it. But that may be because I wasn't very active on the forum until a couple of years ago, or I just didn't see those particular threads or posts. I believe you.

Well, I am a pretty rabid Mirai fan, so I will jump in here.

I thought Mirai should have won the bronze in 2010. She was a faster skater in 2010, and in many ways a better performer, yet got hosed in PCS. The medal winners were pre ordained in 2010, Why shouldn't fans of the 4th place finisher be upset?

2014. I was one of the biggest complainers on GS. However, I thought Wagner should have been added, replacing Edmunds who had little senior experience and edged Mirai by 3 points with questionable high PCS. My wrath was directed entirely at USFS, not at Ashley. I was told repeatedly on this forum in 2014 that it was perfectly fine to dump the 3rd place skater, but it was positively impossible to dump second place Edmunds.

Hm. I wasn't here to read those conversations, and I find your remarks interesting. They're not at all like what I was talking about earlier. And of course, any fan of a skater who finishes fourth has a right to feel upset. I'd say many of us have been in that position. It's not fun.

But she is on the Oly team, not Wagner. It seems she wasn't held back by anything at all.

I was speaking of Mirai's journey of the last four years, not the last couple of months. It seems to me she would, and did, try to put the past behind her. Of course, I don't know that for sure, that was just my impression. But I would think that hearing about it all the time, and being dragged back into it all, must have made it harder for her.

As I said, I admire Mirai's buoyant spirit. (okay, I didn't say "buoyant" before, but I'm saying it now. )

I apologize to everyone for having contributed to a throwback to the past in this thread. I'll stop now.

 

[skylark]

Dear Klutzy, Koralai, Topaz Emerald, and Skylark:

I found your conversation about Bradie Tennell’s long program just delightful. She's said herself that it’s quite personal to her and that, at the championships, she skated it with all her heart. We’ll have to wait for her own words, of course, to know what that means, but certainly your insight dispels any notion that it can be easily dismissed as some "juniorish" thing. Indeed, I should think that it must carry much emotional weight, as do fairy tales and all things from which dreams are made.

That is so true.

I'm glad you enjoyed the conversation, and thank you for saying so.

 

[russianfan]

If you haven't seen this girl, you should watch her now. This is definitely the best lady i've seen from US Nationals, and i believe it's a future of US skating.

 

[frida80]

They actually have the right to take down videos that were Broadcast in Japan? How does that work... I'd get it if they were their videos.

A Japanese was able to take down all videos from Junior worlds and worlds last year regardless who broadcast it. It’s disappointing, since this videos were being passed around by fans to non-fans and building more hype. Now how will people find about Olympians? Sigh...

 

[Spirals for Miles]

A Tonya plunge? Shudder.....

Karen has a black dress like that.I cringe every time I see her in it, because it’s so unnecessary to dress in a way that makes everyone focus on cleavage and boobage.

Bradie seems to like the horizontal cut about level with the armpits. It looks great on her. That cut minimizes torso length if you have a long torso. The v-neck-to-navel style makes a person look super long in the torso and with short legs.

Then how about this: https://www.northerniceanddance.com...ab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/imag0879aa.jpg
Or, one with sleeves but still a horizontal cut at the armpits: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/4f/3a/fd/...ice-skating-outfit-figure-skating-dresses.jpg