2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[el henry]

I don't think Vincent should get special consideration, but we do know that the USFSA has promoted more artistic men and held back marks for more technical skaters in the past. If marked fairly, Vincent should make the team. However, it wouldn't surprise me to see Adam and Jason get a 20-30 point PCS edge over him, either.

Do you consider that the international judges have “promoted” more artistic men and “held back” marks for technical skaters? :think: I haven’t followed Adam’s every score, but Jason has earned the roughly same scores from international judges that he has from American ones.

I suppose someone may not agree with Jason’s scoring (a concept I would agree with only on that he is often underscored in PCS), but it is scarcely a case of the USFS and the USFS alone “holding him up”.

 

[padme21]

Here's how I look at it if we're going to look at this strictly on point of can we win, can we get medals, can we maximize our chances for the 2018 Olympics then sending Nathan and Vincent (if Vincent continues on he's current trajectory) is a must. That's if we look at it from a purely if we want to win maximize scores. Sending Vincent would be beneficial even if he doesn't do well at this Olympics it's getting his name out there Patrick Chan didn't do well the first time he was sent to the Olympics but he got a medal the second time around. Really whoever goes to the Olympics with the exception of Nathan will be determined by how well they do in the Grand prix's and Nationals and if they're healthy.

 

[karne]

Here's how I look at it if we're going to look at this strictly on point of can we win, can we get medals, can we maximize our chances for the 2018 Olympics then sending Nathan and Vincent (if Vincent continues on he's current trajectory) is a must. That's if we look at it from a purely if we want to win maximize scores.

His current trajectory where his score is the 4th highest of all the current US men?

Sorry, but this "send Vincent for experience!" is absolutely a-word-I-can't-use-on-here.

If he EARNS it, he goes. If he doesn't, he doesn't. End of the matter. Right now, he hasn't earned it. Right now, Max and Jason have both scored higher in international competition. Right now, Max is rotating all of his jumps and Vincent isn't. Right now, if you were to pick on scores, the team would be Nathan, Max and Jason.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Max, Adam, Jason have no chance at the 2018 game. So it is a moot point.
Anyone of them going is a waste opportunity for the USFS because they are the past.
Who is skating past 2018? Give them the opportunity. Vincent has proven himself a few times and he has youth on his side. He should be going.

Sorry but Vincent is the future 2022 and skates like it still (Junior like). He can certainly earn his spot to 2018 just like Adam, and Max and whomever else. Adam and Max are not THE PAST.

 

[skylark]

So do I. You could see it when he won in Russia. Raf was the one who was freaking out. Nathan's expression was more like..."Step 1 Complete" He seemed satisfied but not overjoyed. I think he really means business this year and if he stays healthy, the skies the limit.

I agree with you that Nathan seemed satisfied, Step 1. In addition, my two cents: He was thinking about that quad jump that he doubled. He said more than once, in the GS interview after RC, "I put a lot of pressure on myself." And has, since he was "a kid." (Like he's not, now! LOL).

 

[Tahuu]

1. Nathan is a lock at this point. Even if he decides to take a break and skip Nationals all together at this moment, he's going to the Olympics.
2. Vincent should be second. He's the future. USFS will need him in the next few years.
3. One of Max, Jason, Adam. Jason has been to the Olympics. His ceiling is low. I think they should just cut him out of the running at this point. There is no advantage in sending him. Max and Adam are also skaters of year past. Neither has been to the Olympics. I think the better one at Nationals should go.

I think it's likely Nathan, Vincent and Jason will go to the Olympics based on the selection criteria. Other than Nathan, Jason has the best chance to get a GP medal this weekend. Other guys have tougher competitions at their events. Jason also has the advantages of placing 7th at 2017 Worlds and being 3rd at 2017 Nationals. Max and Adam lose ground to Jason on those Tier 1 events. Max will need to place 2nd at Nationals and Adam will need to beat Jason soundly at NHK to have a hope.

If I were to choose, for the Olympics, other than fighting for individual and team medals it's not as important who get the 2nd and third spots, so I'd send Nathan, Vincent (yes, for experience) and Max or Adam (for honors and they deserve it). Jason has been there and done it. For the 2018 Worlds, it's important to get 3 spots for 2019 Worlds, so send Nathan, Jason and Vincent.

 

[beki]

I often take a little while to get to know a skater and really warm up to them and decide to go on their journey with them. I'm not there yet with Vincent, at all. I don't pay a lot of attention to the junior ranks; it's too overwhelming, time-consuming and potentially heartbreaking. What I really like is the maturity that is shown in senior skating. Jumping beans aren't going to supplant experienced skaters in my heart—until they navigate the transition from junior to senior by leveling up their overall skating. Of course, I am not in charge of selecting the Olympic team.

 

[ice coverage]

.... Jason also has the advantages of placing 7th at 2017 Worlds and being 3rd at 2017 Nationals. Max and Adam lose ground to Jason on those Tier 1 events. ...

2018 Nationals would be in Tier 1 of the Olympic selection criteria -- if(?) it is safe to assume that they will follow the model of 2017 Worlds selection criteria.

2017 Nationals would be in Tier 3. Jason would be ahead of Max and Adam for that Tier 3 criterion.

In terms of Tier 1, Jason's one advantage (which is a valuable advantage) at this point would be his 7th place at 2017 Worlds, which would put him ahead of everyone except Nathan.

 

[ask]

Russia ladies are dominating because they reward technical prowess instead of "artistic" Mime your way to the top as long as your TES is above 70.
When will USFS learn? PCS will rise for some people, TES will not rise for some people.

 

[concorde]

2018 Nationals would be in Tier 1 of the Olympic selection criteria -- if(?) it is safe to assume that they will follow the model of 2017 Worlds selection criteria.

2017 Nationals would be in Tier 3. Jason would be ahead of Max and Adam for that Tier 3 criterion.

In terms of Tier 1, Jason's one advantage (which is a valuable advantage) at this point would be his 7th place at 2017 Worlds, which would put him ahead of everyone except Nathan.

Remember that Vincent got 2nd at Nationals last year and Jason got third. USFS opted to send Vincent to Junior Worlds and Jason to Senior Worlds.

Based on this decision by USFS, I don't think Jason's 7th place Senior Worlds finish should be weighted more than Vincent Junior World's Championship.

 

[karne]

Remember that Vincent got 2nd at Nationals last year and Jason got third. USFS opted to send Vincent to Junior Worlds and Jason to Senior Worlds.

Based on this decision by USFS, I don't think Jason's 7th place Senior Worlds finish should be weighted more than Vincent Junior World's Championship.

Which was the completely correct decision.

Is Junior Worlds mentioned in the Tiers? Should it be? Lots of people didn't care so much about the reigning JWC in 2014. (Nor did they care so much about the reigning National Champion, either, but that's another story.)

 

[ice coverage]

Remember that Vincent got 2nd at Nationals last year and Jason got third. USFS opted to send Vincent to Junior Worlds and Jason to Senior Worlds. ...

I assure you that I had not and have not forgotten. I remember very well.

... Based on this decision by USFS, I don't think Jason's 7th place Senior Worlds finish should be weighted more than Vincent Junior World's Championship.

If(?) the Olympic selection criteria are modeled after the 2017 Worlds selection criteria, 2017 Junior Worlds would be in Tier 3.

The question to me is whether the USFS selection committee (no matter what you or I think) wants to somehow(???) take their decision re 2017 Worlds into consideration as part of the decision-making for the Olympic team.
(TBH, I doubt that we'll ever have an answer to that question -- even after the Olympic team is announced.)

 

[TontoK]

Lots of speculation... part of the fun on being a GS member... we love to talk about our shared passion.

But I'm tired of talk. Let's see you skate, boys.

Jason, it's time to deliver. Or not. One way or the other.

Patrick, have you got the goods to fight for big podiums this season? We're about to see.

I'm more excited for Skate Canada than I was for Rostelecom, and that is saying something.

 

[Tallorder]

The clustering of competitors from some countries going head-to-head is terrific this season. Really helps enable what is ordinarily a flawed "cross competition" comparison.

 

[TontoK]

Which was the completely correct decision.

Is Junior Worlds mentioned in the Tiers? Should it be? Lots of people didn't care so much about the reigning JWC in 2014. (Nor did they care so much about the reigning National Champion, either, but that's another story.)

Setting aside the issue of whether sending Jason to World's instead of Vincent was the correct decision or not... because it's water under the bridge...

It would be completely unethical to penalize Vincent for lack of World's experience, when USFSA made the decision to disregard his placement and skip over him last year.

That, if course, is not to say that USFSA wouldn't do it anyway.

 

[karne]

It would be completely unethical to penalize Vincent for lack of World's experience, when USFSA made the decision to disregard his placement and skip over him last year.

Nobody, absolutely nobody, is suggesting that Vincent should be "penalised". The only people suggesting that are the Vincent pushers. The same people who are trying to claim that being JWC should make him a lock even though his current SB is only 4th of the US men on the list.

Nobody gave a damn about Joshua being the JWC in 2014. And he was everything the USFS wanted then - good clean jumps, quad attempts, beautiful artistry. So why the hell should Vincent's JWC, his UR quads, his juniorish skating, his only 4th-best score, make HIM a lock?

 

[concorde]

Nobody, absolutely nobody, is suggesting that Vincent should be "penalised". The only people suggesting that are the Vincent pushers. The same people who are trying to claim that being JWC should make him a lock even though his current SB is only 4th of the US men on the list.

Nobody gave a damn about Joshua being the JWC in 2014. And he was everything the USFS wanted then - good clean jumps, quad attempts, beautiful artistry. So why the hell should Vincent's JWC, his UR quads, his juniorish skating, his only 4th-best score, make HIM a lock?

Woo wait - I would never consider myself a Vincent "pusher." I just think he got a dum deal when he got 2nd at Nationals but USFS opted to send him to Junior Worlds due to his age. At that time, I suspected that in the long term, it would probably penalize him in terms of funding and "body of work." Turns out he is probably ok when it came to funding but we are seeing that the "body of work" issue could still hurt him.

It will be interesting to see how US Nationals turn out. If winds up Vincent in the top 3 at Nationals, then he really should be send to the Olympics regardless of whether or now he has a "body of work" to support it.

 

[TontoK]

Nobody, absolutely nobody, is suggesting that Vincent should be "penalised". The only people suggesting that are the Vincent pushers. The same people who are trying to claim that being JWC should make him a lock even though his current SB is only 4th of the US men on the list.

In the case of a close decision, you don't think it would be unfair to favor a skater over Vincent on the basis of World's experience?

That's what I mean by "penalty."

Karne, you're fairer than that.

 

[concorde]

Woo wait - I would never consider myself a Vincent "pusher." I just think he got a dum deal when he got 2nd at Nationals but USFS opted to send him to Junior Worlds due to his age. At that time, I suspected that in the long term, it would probably penalize him in terms of funding and "body of work." Turns out he is probably ok when it came to funding but we are seeing that the "body of work" issue could still hurt him.

It will be interesting to see how US Nationals turn out. If winds up Vincent in the top 3 at Nationals, then he really should be send to the Olympics regardless of whether or now he has a "body of work" to support it.

To follow-up on my earlier comment - my issue occurs whenever USFS opts to go with "body of work" over placements at Nationals. If you have 2 skaters and one has gotten good results internationally at the Senior level, that skater's body of work will always the newbie who essentially has nothing and it trying to break through.

 

[karne]

In the case of a close decision, you don't think it would be unfair to favor a skater over Vincent on the basis of World's experience?

That's what I mean by "penalty."

Karne, you're fairer than that.

No, I don't think it would be unfair, because the only two in the body of work scenario that he would lose to on the basis of Worlds experience would be Nathan and Jason, who are both better skaters, so it's irrelevant. Only 2017 Worlds counts, as I understand it.

I think it's unfair to equate a JWC with a top-10 finish at Senior Worlds. I think it's unfair to proclaim that a JWC somehow automatically makes him a lock when that has never happened before for a Senior Championship assignment. I think it's unfair to proclaim him a lock when his SB is only fourth of the US men and barely a point above the fifth. I think it's unfair to proclaim he should be sent on the basis of his jumps when he can't damn well rotate them. I think it's unfair to proclaim that he should be sent "for the future" while Max and Adam should be left off as "the past" when neither of those two were ever chosen for a Senior team "for the future".

And as I said - in 2014 no-one gave a damn about the JWC, and he was a much better skater than Vincent. Should have even had the bronze medal the previous Nationals. Now suddenly it's an all-important justification for a technically inferior skater? Damn right I'm not buying it!