2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[Moxiejan]

I love this comment and here's why. Even if you've skated in your own rink and "think" you can tell by watching an event on television, you really can't. When I saw Todd Eldredge in person, I had NEVER heard edges that deep. Even my coach didn't have edges that sounded like that. It was after seeing in him 1991 that I became obsessed with a skaters edge quality.

Imho, there should be one judge on the panel who is blindfolded & awards a score simply on the SOUNDS a skater's blades make. It is absolutely possible to hear most cheated and/or poor jumps (both takeoff and landings), spins that are traveling and/or balanced incorrectly, and crossovers that are not on deep edges.

 

[mrrice]

Imho, there should be one judge on the panel who is blindfolded & awards a score simply on the SOUNDS a skater's blades make. It is absolutely possible to hear most cheated and/or poor jumps (both takeoff and landings), spins that are traveling and/or balanced incorrectly, and crossovers that are not on deep edges.

I LOVE this comment. I have been saying the same thing for years.......It's difficult for some people to understand unless they've gone to a high caliber event like Nationals or Worlds. There is a sound to a "Flutz" that you don't hear on television that you can definitely hear when you're in the arena. Sarah Hughes, who I really have a lot of respect for, had a Flutz in Vancouver in 2001 that had 3 distinct sounds. The sound of a smooth edge, followed by a switch to an outside edge, and then a swooping/swishing sound as she rolled back to the inside edge right as she picked in to take off. Followed by the Ca-Chunk of an under-rotation.

Here's her 2001 LP to Carmen. It's the final lutz and the very end of the program.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKIDgBlLm-8

 

[noskates]

I keep reading all these threads and all the complaining about judging and what could be done or what should be done and I'm left with the thought that no matter how the judging is changed - personnel, rules, guidelines, number of judges, etc - as long as human beings are involved with the judging there will always be complaints. I've yet to see one competition where everyone agreed that it was judged fairly and competently. Someone's favorite will always be judged incorrectly (the fan, of course, knows wayyyyyy more than the person who's qualified to judge) and there will always be excuses why that person's favorite didn't win a medal.

 

[skylark]

I keep reading all these threads and all the complaining about judging and what could be done or what should be done and I'm left with the thought that no matter how the judging is changed - personnel, rules, guidelines, number of judges, etc - as long as human beings are involved with the judging there will always be complaints. I've yet to see one competition where everyone agreed that it was judged fairly and competently. Someone's favorite will always be judged incorrectly (the fan, of course, knows wayyyyyy more than the person who's qualified to judge) and there will always be excuses why that person's favorite didn't win a medal.

There will always be complaints, it's true. And figure skating will always have elements of subjectivity.

The thing is that since IJS came in, the system has continually been altered. They try to address over-compensations, and they usually do this one Olympic cycle at a time. So this is the time for such discussions. the pendulum swings back and forth.

Plushenko started lobbying for a return to his vision of men's skating a year or so before 2010. And with Russian fed and other support, that was accomplished, to some extent. Something similar but opposite is happening now. And figure skating fans want to discuss it.

It's the skaters' job to do as much and as well as they can within the present rules. As fans, we also accept reality that we're in this system. But there's a lot to say about it.

 

[GGFan]

There will always be complaints, it's true. And figure skating will always have elements of subjectivity.

The thing is that since IJS came in, the system has continually been altered. They try to address over-compensations, and they usually do this one Olympic cycle at a time. So this is the time for such discussions. the pendulum swings back and forth.

Plushenko started lobbying for a return to his vision of men's skating a year or so before 2010. And with Russian fed and other support, that was accomplished, to some extent. Something similar but opposite is happening now. And figure skating fans want to discuss it.

It's the skaters' job to do as much and as well as they can within the present rules. As fans, we also accept reality that we're in this system. But there's a lot to say about it.

There are many problems with the IJS and they've been mentioned many times. I think there are two things that would that would help when debating scores and placings:

1. Acknowledging that there is some margin of error. Given the amount of time judges to complete their tasks, the amount of tasks they are required to complete etc. there decisions that the sport make that are like flipping a coin. Michelle v. Tara, Nancy v. Oksana, etc. should have been ties because they were within the margin of error. I find it doubtful that the judges could distinguish the two in a meaningful way (and I say this as someone who had a clear preference). At least in the old system they acknowledged that after a point it was really just a preference vote. I would not mind if, when you have scores within a certain range (let's say within 5 points on the final score--a mathematician could find a much more precise number) the judges just have to vote as a tiebreaker. This current system hides human preferences behind numbers and pretends there is certainty. No way should .01 decide gold and silver. There is too much at stake because human beings like rankings and attach a lot of meaning to the winner. Meryl and Charlie were on the Today Show today. Just a reminder of the power of a gold medal. If they got a silver maybe they wouldn't still be on national TV 3.5 years later.

2. Acknowledging the impossible position judges are in. We want scores within a very limited time range and also want complete accuracy. Those two are mutually exclusive in this case. As fans we'll look at a jump 100 times over the course of a week and then criticize the caller. Yes the individual has replay but he also has a lot of pressure and lots of tasks to perform. Try to judge under those same time constraints knowing that you're being watched. It totally makes sense that you would do some prejudging and should take some shortcuts to complete the complicated task.

 

[concorde]

With the current judging system, I may not agree with how each individual element is graded, but in 9 of 10 times, I agree with the final placement order

Based on that, I do think the current generally works.

 

[GGFan]

With the current judging system, I may not agree with how each individual element is graded, but in 9 of 10 times, I agree with the final placement order

Based on that, I do think the current generally works.

I focus on the placement, and even if the placement is not correct I focus on the value of the performances and the fact that we'll have them on video forever. I've underestimated skates (e.g. Midori Ito) who I came to love later on. I was rooting for Kristi in 1992 (and still love her) but now I value Midori's innovations more.

 

[skylark]

At least in the old system they acknowledged that after a point it was really just a preference vote. ,,,, This current system hides human preferences behind numbers and pretends there is certainty.

Exactly. You can even hear the difference, in the discussions on GS about certain decisions. People pretend there is certainty, whether it's about a past event or even a future one. Someone posted today about a skater, "Any difference will only be a marginal improvement" blah blah blah ... as if the future were already set in stone.

Acknowledging the impossible position judges are in. We want scores within a very limited time range and also want complete accuracy. Those two are mutually exclusive in this case. As fans we'll look at a jump 100 times over the course of a week and then criticize the caller.

True, and it's also the case with all the judges and the PC scores. They're supposed to watch the program, rate every element's GOE, appreciate the program as a whole, and also rate artistic and performance values in 5 different categories. Instantly, or nearly so. It's wrong that they score the components by reputation and expectation, but they have an impossible task.

The value of the performance is what we do have. It's just that on occasion, it takes my feelings awhile to catch up to my will to enjoy the skating for its own sake. It happened just this past Saturday with FT men's FS. I watched the videos to get over it.

 

[TontoK]

With the current judging system, I may not agree with how each individual element is graded, but in 9 of 10 times, I agree with the final placement order

Based on that, I do think the current generally works.

Most of the time, I focus on the last group, unless one of my generous GS friends alerts me to something really special from another group.

I generally agree with your statement - nearly all of the time, I agree with placements. But when I don't, I usually feel VERY strongly that they got it wrong.

But, what about those lower skaters? Are the placements from 7-10 always correct? Most of the time, that's just something that I don't care about enough to track. But I bet it's very important to those skaters who are trying to break into the upper groups, or are trying to hang on or climb back up.

 

[draqq]

Imho, there should be one judge on the panel who is blindfolded & awards a score simply on the SOUNDS a skater's blades make. It is absolutely possible to hear most cheated and/or poor jumps (both takeoff and landings), spins that are traveling and/or balanced incorrectly, and crossovers that are not on deep edges.

I will support this motion to "Make Daredevil A Figure Skating Judge".

 

[Tahuu]

Phil Hersh's observations/predictions one month into the season.

"1. Adam Rippon, the 2016 U.S. champion, had a thoroughly respectable and encouraging showing in his first competition since a broken foot sidelined him before last January’s nationals.

Yet his skating at last weekend’s Finlandia Trophy showed again that Rippon, like U.S. teammate Jason Brown, still lacks the big points jumps to be a medal contender in global championships.

Rippon finished a very close third overall to Jin Boyang of China and Vincent Zhou of the U.S. mainly because Jin imploded in the free skate and Zhou in the short program. Rippon was second to Zhou in the free skate, but his technical score was 16.12 lower than Zhou’s and 8.58 lower than Jin’s, even though free skate winner Zhou singled an axel and Jin had four under-rotated jumps and two falls.

Rippon tried one quad (fell on an under rotated lutz). Zhou got full base value on four quads (three clean). Jin tried four and got full base value on two.

And, like it or not, the way the sport is scored today, the points from such jumps are lot to overcome, unless you are Carolina Kostner (see below.) Gaining from others’ imperfections can only take you so far.

2. Chen and Zhou, 1-2 at last year’s U.S. Championships, are nearly sure bets for two of the three U.S. men’s singles spots in the 2018 Pyeongchang Olympics – Chen, 18, for obvious reasons; Zhou, who turns 17 this month, because he also represents the future of U.S. men’s skating and would benefit from Olympic experience. In a subjective selection process with amorphous criteria, that (and Zhou’s ability to land multiple quads) gives him an advantage, should everything else be nearly equal.

That would leave Max Aaron, 25, Rippon (28 next month), and Brown (23 in December) in a battle for the final spot."

"3. As I tweeted early last week, I can easily see Mirai Nagasu adding a U.S. title to the one she took in 2008. "

"9. And don’t be surprised if the U.S. wins no figure skating medal at this Olympics, a shutout that has not happened since World War II."

 

[SubRosa]

"9. And don’t be surprised if the U.S. wins no figure skating medal at this Olympics, a shutout that has not happened since World War II."

I guess ice dance and the team event don't count in Hersh's world.

 

[Mrs. P]

I guess ice dance and the team event don't count in Hersh's world.

He mentioned that ice dance is our best shot but that there were a lot of teams fighting for bronze.

 

[mrrice]

I just had a look at Tomoki Hiwatashi's SP. He was great at his event and is in 3rd place heading into the free program. He is one spot ahead of Andrew T. Tomoki is coached by Kori and I'm guessing his programs are from Rohene. He was great and when you look at the rest of our Junior Men, the future looks bright.

 

[Tahuu]

Assuming Nathan and Vincent on the team, it may end up Max and Jason fighting for the 3rd spot. From their Challenger layouts, it seems Max could improve his levels and land his jumps cleanly to get 5-6 additional BV in his SP and 4-5 BV in his FS. Jason could change 4T to 3Lz and land clean jumps to get 6-7 BV in his SP and 0.5 BV in his FS. Over all Max may have 20 TES over Jason and Jason may have 15-20 PCS over Max. Max may have a slightly better chance to grab the final spot.

Max (261.56=86.06+175.50)

SP (86.06=48.41+37.65)
4T (-3.04)
4S+3T
FCSp3
3Ax
CSSp4
StSq3
CCoSp4

FS (175.50=94.90+80.60)
4T+2T
4S (-1.20)
3Lo
StSq3
FCCoSp4
4Tx
3A+2Tx
3Ax
3Lz+1Lo+3Sx
FSSp4
ChSq1
2Ax (-1.00)
CCoSp3


Jason (259.88=83.01+176.87)

SP (83.01=39.26+44.75)
4T<< (change to 3Lz +5)
3A (-1.40)
FCSp4
CSSp4
3F+3T
StSq4
CCoSp4

FS (176.87=85.07+91.80)
3F
3A
CCSp4
2A
StSq4
3A+2T
FCCoSp4
3Lz+1Lo+3S< (-0.28)
3Lo (-0.28)
3Lz+2T
2A
CCoSp4

 

[el henry]

I just had a look at Tomoki Hiwatashi's SP. He was great at his event and is in 3rd place heading into the free program. He is one spot ahead of Andrew T. Tomoki is coached by Kori and I'm guessing his programs are from Rohene. He was great and when you look at the rest of our Junior Men, the future looks bright.

Tomoki’s programs are Rohene programs, and IMHO, they are among the best skated by junior men today. I say that not just as a Rohene fan, but some juniors (none of the US boys, or at least the leading ones) seem to get “leftover” programs,
but Tomoki’s are vintage Rohene.

And of course my the performer, Andrew T., getting smoother and better, Camden Pulkinen, and a skater whose style I would normally not like at all, Alex K., but he those power moves grab me, what can I say

And I would assume that Andrew and Alex will return to senior Nats; :agree:I don’t know the plans for the other two....

 

[Mrs. P]

I believe all four are going to be seniors.

 

[SkaterX]

Here's a short video of Max ramping up his training while going to school:

https://www.facebook.com/CoachTomZ/videos/1357055934393124/

 

[ice coverage]

... And I would assume that Andrew and Alex will return to senior Nats ...

I think you meant to say that Andrew and Tomoki will return as seniors at Nats?

Alex K and Camden are the 2017 gold and silver U.S. junior medalists, respectively.

https://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2017/24267/results.html​

---

Here's a short video of Max ramping up his training while going to school:

https://www.facebook.com/CoachTomZ/videos/1357055934393124/

And the link to the longer original version of this good USFS video is in Max's fan thread, thanks to musicfan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph9Z7A3HrnU (2:22, posted Oct 12)​

Go, Max :yay:.

 

[Skater Boy]

I LOVE this comment. I have been saying the same thing for years.......It's difficult for some people to understand unless they've gone to a high caliber event like Nationals or Worlds. There is a sound to a "Flutz" that you don't hear on television that you can definitely hear when you're in the arena. Sarah Hughes, who I really have a lot of respect for, had a Flutz in Vancouver in 2001 that had 3 distinct sounds. The sound of a smooth edge, followed by a switch to an outside edge, and then a swooping/swishing sound as she rolled back to the inside edge right as she picked in to take off. Followed by the Ca-Chunk of an under-rotation.

Here's her 2001 LP to Carmen. It's the final lutz and the very end of the program.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKIDgBlLm-8

I am no expert but she was skating to Don Quixote. I have to say her edges on the lutz look questionable and a lot of her jumps looked underrotated but what do I know - or at the very least they weren't huge jumps. Not great amplitude.