2017 Ondrej Nepela Trophy Pairs SP

[skatemouse]

Golly if only we could see those old school Jason Brown pairs vids... Obviously it didn't work out and it's hard to say whether his career would have fared better had he chosen pairs instead.

I know it's an exaggeration, but the idea of handpicking pairs skaters from the singles, with some exceptions, is not a thing I buy into. I think the issue is that pairs is extremely high risk and you have a partner to contend with. I think it's a matter of giving people a reason to select pairs in spite of some of the inheritance risks.

Also it's worth examining why it's difficult for us pairs to make the transition to that senior/elite
content.

This is true. I always find it funny though when people are so drama about singles jumps in pairs in a beginning of a season. There is so much to get ready. I would prefer they did not exist really as the pair elements are not only dangerous but are so so so difficult. If you have two good jumpers it does not mean you will have great pair elements and there can be up to 10 other elements. (Just saw what missing a pair spin can do to a score, or dings in levels) Training in other countries with this discipline is totally different too. You are hand picked from an early age with not the same worries as American pairs. There is good and bad. IN any case we have made some strides and hopefully more will happen. I did not expect teams from USA to blow doors here at this competition?? Just like everyone to get out and skate the first competition of the season. Onto the next one.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Golly if only we could see those old school Jason Brown pairs vids... Obviously it didn't work out and it's hard to say whether his career would have fared better had he chosen pairs instead.

I know it's an exaggeration, but the idea of handpicking pairs skaters from the singles, with some exceptions, is not a thing I buy into. I think the issue is that pairs is extremely high risk and you have a partner to contend with. I think it's a matter of giving people a reason to select pairs in spite of some of the inheritance risks.

Also it's worth examining why it's difficult for us pairs to make the transition to that senior/elite
content.

I think this is the real reason why forcing people to pairs is a bad idea. You can't have a guy chuck a gal across the ice that does not want to be throwing a person across the the ice. Likewise throwing a a gal that does not want to thrown is equally a bad idea. Pairs is dangerous.... we need couples that are comfortable with it.

I am ok with financial support... but there should be a clear message that the choice to go pairs is a personal one that you have to be comfortable with.

 

[skatemouse]

I think this is the real reason why forcing people to pairs is a bad idea. You can't have a guy chuck a gal across the ice that does not want to be throwing a person across the the ice. Likewise throwing a a gal that does not want to thrown is equally a bad idea. Pairs is dangerous.... we need couples that are comfortable with it.

I am ok with financial support... but there should be a clear message that the choice to go pairs is a personal one that you have to be comfortable with.

Maybe that is why our pairs are not as developed? We want them to be ok with it, always feeling good about it. Are you comfortable together? etc. I say it is the way things are in the USA and not expecting them to change anytime soon but can you imagine that reasoning in China? Russia? or even Germany? Are you comfortable? Are you ok? MY guess is it is do this or else. Is it always right? no.... is the USA wanting to be top in the World realistic when there is not some of that thought? Probably not. Pairs is too dangerous. I think there is a lot to work on and most of our pairs have not been together since they have been very young. Or trained all pair single elements since they were babies. Lots of catching up to do. I think watching some replays most of the Russian twists are not LVL 4 and there were some gifts given to get a score of 61-67 for SP. If Alexa and Chris can go to 4CC with mistakes, after not competing all year and get 69 and up I think we should be happy about it. Higher level jumpers will be coming out of new crops of kids training longer and doing more difficult jumps sooner...the discipline of pairs in USA will change and grow soon enough. For now. Counting our good things and moving forward. All of them are dare devils if you ask me. Pairs is just it's own discipline and if you are always whining about single jumps only when other countries struggle too then you don't know much about the discipline at all. Time to look at the full discipline twists, spins, lifts, footwork, transitions, death spirals, cross overs together, speed, throws, artistry, connection, etc. What is the worst to see? Two single skaters trying to do pairs. It hurts. So if we can make it past that step and get some pairs skating pairs let's go from there. We are making some strides. To have a married team competing on an International level for this long we have a good shot. Maybe the other teams will take note and see what is needed. SO buck up America it is just the beginning!

 

[SnowWhite]

Maybe that is why our pairs are not as developed? We want them to be ok with it, always feeling good about it. Are you comfortable together? etc. I say it is the way things are in the USA and not expecting them to change anytime soon but can you imagine that reasoning in China? Russia? or even Germany? Are you comfortable? Are you ok? MY guess is it is do this or else. Is it always right? no.... is the USA wanting to be top in the World realistic when there is not some of that thought? Probably not. Pairs is too dangerous. I think there is a lot to work on and most of our pairs have not been together since they have been very young. Or trained all pair single elements since they were babies. Lots of catching up to do. I think watching some replays most of the Russian twists are not LVL 4 and there were some gifts given to get a score of 61-67 for SP. If Alexa and Chris can go to 4CC with mistakes, after not competing all year and get 69 and up I think we should be happy about it. Higher level jumpers will be coming out of new crops of kids training longer and doing more difficult jumps sooner...the discipline of pairs in USA will change and grow soon enough. For now. Counting our good things and moving forward. All of them are dare devils if you ask me. Pairs is just it's own discipline and if you are always whining about single jumps only when other countries struggle too then you don't know much about the discipline at all. Time to look at the full discipline twists, spins, lifts, footwork, transitions, death spirals, cross overs together, speed, throws, artistry, connection, etc. What is the worst to see? Two single skaters trying to do pairs. It hurts. So if we can make it past that step and get some pairs skating pairs let's go from there. We are making some strides. To have a married team competing on an International level for this long we have a good shot. Maybe the other teams will take note and see what is needed. SO buck up America it is just the beginning!

Well Canada has plenty of pairs success and the attitude isn't do this or else, so obviously you can be successful in pairs without that attitude. And I'm sure different countries have different approaches, but I'm not sure what you said is that accurate a description of how things are in those countries. Anyways one thing that's common in Canada is for young skaters coming up to compete in both singles and dance and then ultimately end up in pairs. The dance training teaches them a lot about unison and skating with a partner and they work on their jumping ability in singles.

 

[skatemouse]

Well Canada has plenty of pairs success and the attitude isn't do this or else, so obviously you can be successful in pairs without that attitude. And I'm sure different countries have different approaches, but I'm not sure what you said is that accurate a description of how things are in those countries. Anyways one thing that's common in Canada is for young skaters coming up to compete in both singles and dance and then ultimately end up in pairs. The dance training teaches them a lot about unison and skating with a partner and they work on their jumping ability in singles.

That's true good points re:Canada. I am not sure they are a pair power house but they have had some success. I would not compare them to Russia, China, and Germany even but they do make a stand. I was obviously focusing on more of the Russia China training ways. From skaters that have broken free of those countries they tell some interesting stories. Some of them benefit the discipline some are nuts. You also pointed out how Canada is even different adding Dance at a young age. That is interesting and not something many could afford. Affording pairs and singles is a lot. Adding dance with a partner would be another expense. There are issues was my point. I think it is pretty obvious there are. That said I do feel like USA can break through like Canada has. If they can USA can.

 

[The Finn]

I don't really have a problem with the artistic aspect of their skating, to be honest. But their elements are good, clean, and that's it. In the past I thought they would go for the 3A, but now they just settled on these elements and that's it. I wish they tried to aim higher.

They did went for the the 3A but Natalia had a some really nasty falls when they tried 3A, so, they are taking it more slowly now. 3A is a difficult and dangerous element and since Natalia have injured herself in the past when they have tried 3A, it is totally understandable that they would want take it more slowly now.

 

[4everchan]

That's true good points re:Canada. I am not sure they are a pair power house but they have had some success. I would not compare them to Russia, China, and Germany even but they do make a stand. I was obviously focusing on more of the Russia China training ways. From skaters that have broken free of those countries they tell some interesting stories. Some of them benefit the discipline some are nuts. You also pointed out how Canada is even different adding Dance at a young age. That is interesting and not something many could afford. Affording pairs and singles is a lot. Adding dance with a partner would be another expense. There are issues was my point. I think it is pretty obvious there are. That said I do feel like USA can break through like Canada has. If they can USA can.

a few points :

History (Olympics only) of pair skating... truly, if we look at the modern era, Russia under different banners (Soviet Union, Unified team, Russia) has been the only real powerhouse in pairs.
They have won most of the Olympic titles.. often had 2 teams on the podium, and were only ousted of the podium once, in Vancouver 2010.

Not only there is tradition with Russian pairs, a tradition that seems to be based on ballet aesthetics, but the federation did invest a lot on pair training over the years.

China, has only won its first pairs medal in 2002.... so pretty much, before IJS were on the podium only once in SLC. The longevity of their athletes is also important to mention... 3 of the 5 medals won by the same pair... Also, they have a federation controlling the sport, to the point that they even control partnerships (swap gate)

Germany has had only 3 medals since 1992.... all bronzes... 2 of which came from S/S.

Canada also 3 since 1992, one gold, two bronzes.

USA has never won gold in all history of pairs at olympics... and since 1992, 0 medal.


So, outside of Russia, we see a clear momentum with Chinese pairs, but it's very recent and should keep going until at least 2022 (games in China) but if there are often 2 or 3 strong teams, there is very little below these teams...

Germany is still alive because Aljona is keeping going... but there is not much legacy at the moment.

Russia right now, is rebuilding yet still potentially able to medal at the Olympics.

Canada has 4 strong teams, a good middle pack of developing teams (most newly formed partnerships) and some strong juniors on the JGP.

The issue with USA is that there is NO REAL DEFINITE #1 team right now, due to injuries and newly formed partnerships...

The Germany of today, Canada and USA probably have similar training models... not unlike other countries like France and Italy but the way to the top step of the podium is very difficult for all these countries...

So, YMMV but outside of Russia and recently China, I don't see how Germany is a powerhouse... when it's pretty much one skater who is running the show. (and doing so now with a French partner)


Now... what SnowWhite was telling you is not quite what you seem to have understood.

Many Canadian skaters do not do pairs as kids.. they do SINGLES and DANCE... so they learn how to skate in unison with a partner, do dance lifts, dance/pair spins, footwork, and of course, in singles, jumps....

So, what happens is simple, some skaters at a later age, make a decision and chose ONE discipline... and this is where PAIRS becomes an option. We have a few skaters on the JGP who are doing dance internationally but are still strong novice or junior single skaters... and same with the opposite scenario. The model is to develop well-rounded kids, who then, if they remain in singles, will have good skating skills from dance, if they remain in dance, will have trained from a young age, and if they feel interest and potential for pairs will have strong jumps, spins and skating skills, but also have had partnership experience.

That's what SnowWhite was saying. Skaters here chose pairs often after training dance and singles... and that's why, without a pool of skaters as important as what there is in the USA, I would think that Canada is still a factor, year in and year out in that discipline. Canada may not challenge for medals all the time, but often has their teams rank in the top ten.... at US Classic last week, Canada's #4 team, beat all the US teams present. It gives you an idea of the depth in the middle or top ten range, if at times, there aren't real contenders for Olympic gold.

And sure, I left out WC from the historical background to save some time... and there is no denying that S/S made their mark there... but so did D/R for instance... but I thought looking at Olympics, because that is the final point of the olympic cycle which athletes train for... was more relevant

YMMV

 

[3T3T]

Just watched the Top 3. Very impressed with A/R. They hit everything, all the elements got Lv4. They look very well trained and fit. Can they push for the 3rd Russian spot? I thought it would be an all Mozer team but maybe not. We'll see how the free goes.

I like this programme from Z/E, slight issue on the jump and some lower levels. They are under some pressure now to hold of A/R but they can do it. I really like E/K but the jumps are an issue. Today was a better attempt from her. They present well and have a nice personality on ice. I would like to see them on the podium.