2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[lavieenrose]

I can see why the Yuna Kim example is a bit complicated (I’m also confused) but we can all understand what she means ; she wanted a coach that was used to training women and that’s all.

 

[zounger]

Ah, see, why didn‘t she do that then! How stupid of her not to ruin her chances of having both the Olympic gold and Olympic silver medal just to gain the reputation of being a „successful“ senior coach! Now we know why Zhenya said that to her: She was just worried for Eteri‘s reputation.

I think she was stupid, because she could have done a sweep at juniors easily and have both senior and junior success rather than just junior now.

 

[KiraraChin]

Now, this comparison only makes sense if we assume that Yuna in 2010 would also have won the gold if a 15-year-old Zagitova performing these exact same programs in the exact same manner would have lost to her. I don't think it's accurate at all to completely dismiss the 18-year-old Medvedeva's olympic performance simply because someone defeated her in that event.

Wow, do you really think I'm dismissing Zhenya's performance? :O

I'm just stating facts here. Brian has coached a post-pubescent body to an Olympic gold. Eteri hasn't. As a woman, I can tell you there's really not much difference between a 19 and 22 year-old bodies. Whereas the difference between 15 and 22 is massive. So it makes total sense to think that Brian's experience is more relevant to Zhenya's situation than Eteri's.
I don't understand what's so difficult to understand.

 

[moriel]

How? Eteri only had Medvedeva and now that she and Tsurskaya are gone her oldest skater is Zagitova. Orser has trained two female skaters to an Olympic Gold Medal (even though, to be fair, Gabby‘s was only in the team event). Eteri doesn‘t want to train older skaters or she simply seems unable to as all skater sooner or later leave her (Lipnitskaya, Tsurskaya, Medvedeva). What‘s the problem with admitting the fact that Eteri simply focuses on junior skaters? She achieves great results with them, probably the best ever. But she just doesn‘t seem to be able to handle older skaters so far. But what‘s the problem? Everyone‘s got a speciality and with Eteri it‘s bringing the best out of young talents.

Eteri trained exactly 1 skater to win individual medal, Medvedeva, at 18.
Orser trained exactly 1 skater to win individual medal, Yuna, at 19.
None of them have any successful ladies in their second Olympic cycle, and never had. Gabby just turned 20 and struggles. Tursynbaeva left to train with Eteri. Yuna left when she was 19. Other ladies, well, its sad. Medvedeva and Yulia left Eteri at 18 and 17 respectively.

Are there any 20+ ladies that Orser successfully coached? Nops. Same for Eteri.

 

[Persimmons]

Instead of focusing on semantics to pick skaters apart, maybe we can acknowledge that everyone's situations and pasts are different, and people do what they think is best for them. Yuna's pre-Brian career and Evgenia's pre-teen training situations are not comparable. So judging by the intense scrutiny over this analogy, Evgenia should have no place to even speak. Is that the point we are actually trying to make here? Because if you extend the logic, that's where I find myself. If fans disagree with skater decisions, let's see how the results play out next year. If it allows fans to dance over someone's professional grave, then there will be plenty of time to celebrate if and when that time comes.

I'll be interested to see how Brian manages Evgenia's injuries. His team doesn't prevent injury that's for sure, so the real question for me is if it's logical for ex-Eteri students to go to a place whose star students are just not the TYPE to peak early, whereas Eteri's are. Can skaters change their physiology like this? I think it's certainly worth a try to achieve longevity, but we'll see. It's easy to see what type of bodies skaters have to withstand stress in retrospect, after their careers are over, but in the moment, we can only work with the info we are given.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

It will be interesting to see how Evgenia develops under Brian. I think that Yuna probably came to Brian with much better jump technique, particularly on the toe jumps, so they had more time to work on artistry and competitive mindset. Brian has to completely rework Evgenia's lutz and probably her 3T combinations to keep her placements at the same level.

 

[moriel]

Wow, do you really think I'm dismissing Zhenya's performance? :O

I'm just stating facts here. Brian has coached a post-pubescent body to an Olympic gold. Eteri hasn't. As a woman, I can't tell you there's really not much difference between a 19 and 22 year-old bodies. Whereas the difference between 15 and 22 is massive. So it makes total sense to think that Brian's experience is more relevant to Zhenya's situation than Eteri's.
I don't understand what's do difficult to understand.

I do not understand the difference between 239.57 and 238.26 though. I mean, coaching a post pubescent lady to win silver with 238.26 while the gold medalist got 239.57 is suddenly a major difference from coaching a post pubescent lady to win gold.
Nops, no difference here, sorry to disappoint. Those achievements are on the same tier. I really fail to see the relevant difference in experience here.

 

[Shayuki]

Wow, do you really think I'm dismissing Zhenya's performance? :O

I'm just stating facts here. Brian has coached a post-pubescent body to an Olympic gold. Eteri hasn't. As a woman, I can tell you there's really not much difference between a 19 and 22 year-old bodies. Whereas the difference between 15 and 22 is massive. So it makes total sense to think that Brian's experience is more relevant to Zhenya's situation than Eteri's.
I don't understand what's so difficult to understand.

Can you really not see the problem with only focusing on the gold with this? Medvedeva, with a 18-year-old's body, did have quite a successful program. Clean skates, very well received internationally, very high scores(higher than Yuna's, mind). Someone being better... doesn't make her skate worse. If Medvedeva and Zagitova had performed the exact same programs, but say 2 Zagitova-favoring judges would have been different and became Medvedeva-favoring judges and Medvedeva would have won by 0.1 points rather than losing by 1 point, would the narrative of yours completely change? Even though the skating performances themselves would be perfectly identical? I don't get it. I agree though, 19 and 22 are closer than 18 and 22(insignificantly, but they're closer). But please don't go with "15 to 22", that's so forced.

If she feels like Orser can deal with senior skaters better, that's fine of course and he does have far more experience with senior skaters. That's definitely not what I would find odd. But enough about this already... I think I've already explained my point.

 

[Fluture]

Evgenia and Eteri had great success together. I do not try to say that this isn‘t relevant because it is. But maybe that‘s not even the point here. Evgenia wanted a change, she felt like she needed a change so she chose a coach that wouldn‘t be a step down, that would at least be on Eteri‘s level. Who else should she have chosen, if not Orser? I don‘t think it‘s important at all who‘s the most successful of the two because BOTH were pretty successful in the last years and both are great coaches in their very own ways. We will see whether Orser‘s training style suits Evgenia, whether she will achieve the results she wanted with him. Maybe she phrased it a bit wrongly with the Yuna example but that‘s really not that important. What‘s important is that the decision was made and now we‘ll see how she adapts to the changes, the new environment, new training life. It‘s going to be an interesting season indeed.

 

[atsumiri]

that's funny.

EVERYONE knows that Eteri DOES NOT TRAIN OLDER SKATERS.

and Orser? any names?
Yuna 19.. almost the same age as Evgenia, and she left Orser after her first Olympic. Just like Evgenia left Eteri after her first Olympic.
Tursynbayeva 18, left him... no success
Gabby? He isn't her coach... and 15th place at OG.....
Joshi Helgesson? Alaine Chartrand ? that's even funny)

somebody also? Who? any names?
it's just one Yuna who is his first and only successful senior lady.

 

[Persimmons]

I do not understand the difference between 239.57 and 238.26 though. I mean, coaching a post pubescent lady to win silver with 238.26 while the gold medalist got 239.57 is suddenly a major difference from coaching a post pubescent lady to win gold.
Nops, no difference here, sorry to disappoint. Those achievements are on the same tier. I really fail to see the relevant difference in experience here.

So by your logic, Olympic Silver at 18 is an equal achievement to Olympic Gold at 19, based on a point differential 8 years in the future? Are we talking about the coaches here, or the skaters? I see there's no point in engaging in discussion about this. Don't worry, no one is disappointed, because no one is an arbiter of truth. Unless you count results as truth, in which case I see an OGM at 19 and an OSM at 18. And to these girls, that makes all the difference.

 

[KiraraChin]

It seems that the salt here against Zhenya is because she didn't want to stick around to see if she could be Eteri's first successful adult skater. She made an assessment and did what she thought was best for herself. Unforgivable, right?

 

[moriel]

So by your logic, Olympic Silver at 18 is an equal achievement to Olympic Gold at 19, based on a point differential 8 years in the future? Are we talking about the coaches here, or the skaters? I see there's no point in engaging in discussion about this. Don't worry, no one is disappointed, because no one is an arbiter of truth. Unless you count results as truth, in which case I see an OGM at 19 and an OSM at 18. And to these girls, that makes all the difference.

Yep.
I don`t see any RELEVANT difference between coaching a 18 years old into winning an Olympic Silver (by 1 point margin), and coaching a 19 years old into winning an Olympic Gold.
We are talking about coaching here, and only coaching. Please tell me how those are so much different coaching wise.

 

[Caustica]

So by your logic, Olympic Silver at 18 is an equal achievement to Olympic Gold at 19, based on a point differential 8 years in the future? Are we talking about the coaches here, or the skaters? I see there's no point in engaging in discussion about this. Don't worry, no one is disappointed, because no one is an arbiter of truth. Unless you count results as truth, in which case I see an OGM at 19 and an OSM at 18. And to these girls, that makes all the difference.

The discussion isn't about who ultimately won what. The discussion is about the ability of coaches to train female skaters of a certain age to the highest level. Although Evgenia only came second, nobody would deny that she was trained to the highest level. She skated two incredibly difficult programs cleanly, and was beaten by a small point differential. Thus her coach was able to coach an 18-year old woman to the highest level.

So the difference here is really that one coach coached a 19-year old woman to the highest level whereas the other coached an 18-year old woman to the highest level. The difference is quite small when you look at it this way.

I think the reason Orser gives off an impression of coaching older skaters well is because of his success with older male skaters. That's undeniable. But Evgenia focused in her interview on Yuna / Orser's ability to coach female skaters, which is bizarre evidence to give.

 

[Shayuki]

So by your logic, Olympic Silver at 18 is an equal achievement to Olympic Gold at 19, based on a point differential 8 years in the future? Are we talking about the coaches here, or the skaters? I see there's no point in engaging in discussion about this. Don't worry, no one is disappointed, because no one is an arbiter of truth. Unless you count results as truth, in which case I see an OGM at 19 and an OSM at 18. And to these girls, that makes all the difference.

Olympics aren't single skater simulators where you can say "This performance gets a gold medal, this gets a silver", etc. in a vacuum. It is always going to depend on the other contestants. Yes, it's perfectly possible for a silver medal performance to be better than a gold medal performance if said gold medal performance has weaker opposition(Speaking generally, not talking about anything in specific). Coaches do not have the power to decide results. Results are decided by what the skater does in relation to all the other skaters and what the judges score them by. The only thing a coach can impact is the skater's performance on the ice itself.

I don't actually see the salt...? Only finding it strange that she would mention Yuna in her interview, when she isn't the greatest example of Brian's ability to coach older skaters, since she left Brian straight after her first Olympics.

I can't speak for the others, but I think it's great that Evgenia has left Eteri - it'll give her a chance to develop a different style, try something new, and hopefully fix her technique. It's just that the interview is bizarre. Orser isn't demonstratively a better coach for older female skaters than Eteri, since neither of them have coached older female skaters (20+).

You're wording this very well. There are many understandable reasons(Atmosphere, environment, different types of specialists, want for a change, Orser's success with male skaters etc., wanting more freedom) but the reason given was one that didn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

 

[Caustica]

It seems that the salt here against Zhenya is because she didn't want to stick around to see if she could be Eteri's first successful adult skater. She made an assessment and did what she thought was best for herself. Unforgivable, right?

I don't actually see the salt...? Only finding it strange that she would mention Yuna in her interview, when she isn't the greatest example of Brian's ability to coach older skaters, since she left Brian straight after her first Olympics.

I can't speak for the others, but I think it's great that Evgenia has left Eteri - it'll give her a chance to develop a different style, try something new, and hopefully fix her technique. It's just that the interview is bizarre. Orser isn't demonstratively a better coach for older female skaters than Eteri, since neither of them have coached older female skaters (20+).

 

[Persimmons]

Yep.
I don`t see any RELEVANT difference between coaching a 18 years old into winning an Olympic Silver (by 1 point margin), and coaching a 19 years old into winning an Olympic Gold.
We are talking about coaching here, and only coaching. Please tell me how those are so much different coaching wise.

Isn't this the state of Russian ladies skating thread, not the Eteri Tutberidze fanfest? That's why I thought we were talking about both coach and skater. But thank you for clarifying your opinion. It seems you are looking at this from a different perspective from the skaters, who want to win gold, rather than be a reflection of their coaches. Let's pretend Alina was coached by someone other than Eteri. Do you think Eteri think there was a difference, then, between her achievements with 18+ skaters and Brians?

 

[KiraraChin]

So, Moriel and Shayuki: you guys are basically saying that Zhenya should be satisfied with the silver she got. Is that it?

 

[Persimmons]

Olympics aren't single skater simulators where you can say "This performance gets a gold medal, this gets a silver", etc. in a vacuum. It is always going to depend on the other contestants. Yes, it's perfectly possible for a silver medal performance to be better than a gold medal performance if said gold medal performance has weaker opposition(Speaking generally, not talking about anything in specific). Coaches do not have the power to decide results. Results are decided by what the skater does in relation to all the other skaters and what the judges score them by. The only thing a coach can impact is the skater's performance on the ice itself.

Of course that's true. Sure, I think Michelle Kwan's 98 performance was better than Sarah Hughes' 2002 performance, but the reality is it's not the same objective achievement. Subjectively, another story. As for their coaches? I really don't know enough to say, but I would hope that the legacy of Alina, Evgenia, and Yuna are more than the sum of their coaches.

 

[Fluture]

that's funny.

and Orser? any names?
Yuna 19.. almost the same age as Evgenia, and she left Orser after her first Olympic. Just like Evgenia left Eteri after her first Olympic.
Tursynbayeva 18, left him... no success
Gabby? He isn't her coach... and 15th place at OG.....
Joshi Helgesson? Alaine Chartrand ? that's even funny)

somebody also? Who? any names?
it's just one Yuna who is his first and only successful senior lady.

Yuna, Gabby and Tursynbaeva, those are already three, yes. And he isn’t Gabby’s primary coach but he does work with her. And she’s still an Olympic Champion, she only had her meltdown in the individual event, in the team event she wasn’t that bad. And my point was and I‘m saying this again: Evgenia felt like she needed a change after ELEVEN years of being coached by Eteri which is normal in the life of any athlete. So she went to the next best choice which is Orser. Ultimately it does not matter who is more successful.