2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[Sam-Skwantch]

The entire sport is about natural genetics and physical conditioning, though, not just carriage and posture. Maintaining good posture and body-positions require long-term physical and mental discipline as in other technical aspects in skating.

I’m just stating natural posture and carriage can and might very. I’ve seen several skaters being taught the exact same strides/techniques who look night and day. People walk differently and differences like how long the legs are, curve of spine, shape of hips, height, etc... can create nuances from one skater to the next.

I’m saying I don’t think as a judge I’d spend much time on that stuff. Some of my favorite skaters are “crouchers”. It’s ok if they can get the job done

 

[Metis]

who are the top 2 ladies you are referring to?

He means the top two podium finishers from last year’s Worlds — Osmond and Wakaba. Neither are attending this year. Satoko was the bronze medalist and isn’t favoured to win.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

So reasonable arguments about posture and its relation to skating skills are actually petty critiques about a skater’s physical appearance/genes. Okay.

Like the skaters who naturally sort of hunch. I’d say it’s pretty petty and absolutely unrelated to sport to score based on a body shape. YMMV.

In baseball, hockey, etc... we’ve always just called them crouchers

 

[Metis]

Like the skaters who natural sort of hunch. I’d say it’s pretty petty and absolutely unrelated to sport to score based on a body shape. YMMV.

In baseball, hockey, etc... we’ve always just called them crouchers

... posture and body size are not the same thing. I have no idea what you’re trying to say but you clearly have misread what was written. Posture is not genetic or a matter of body size.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

... posture and body size are not the same thing. I have no idea what you’re trying to say but you clearly have misread what was written. Posture is not genetic or a matter of body size.

Interesting...I’ve always been taught the position of your arms in relation to your back and legs and all the funny things in between could have noticeable impact on how results can very with skaters basic posture and how they execute.. Well...not just skaters. Even with how athletes run and walk. I guess I consider bone structure and the general shape of one’s body to be genetic. Those are the things I was talking about. The physical things that affect our posture.

I also didn’t realize how deep into the topic you guys were getting and now I just went back a few pages after a very busy day away from GS

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

BTW:

Where exactly is Posture supposed to be addressed in scoring?
https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...96-program-component-chart-id-sp-2018-19/file

I would have assumed under Skating Skills but not really after checking this link. Hmm..Maybe under interpretation or performance? Maybe just a tiny fraction of both?

 

[bobbob]

Posture itself is not supposed to directly affect your scores. But bad posture can make it difficult to jump and move/glide across the ice quickly, which obviously hurts the score.

 

[Orlov]

Why is poor posture discussed here? Someone thinks that Russian ladies have bad posture?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

To be fair, Sasha has already grown a lot in this season alone (to the extent that she has gone through multiple costumes), and she seems to be improving in all aspects, at least in my eyes. I wouldn’t be surprised if she proved an exception to the general pattern and kept her jumps.

Alena K (both of them) and Nastya T are my favorite juniors, too.

I would say Sasha has massively improved since moving to Eteri in every aspect of performance. I think this was either when she first joined Eteri or right before.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=PbxcfYZd3Rw
#WubWubWub

It’s amazing the amount of poise, grace, and execution she’s gained since joining. She’s grown a lot too in terms of her size and it seems to be helping at this point

I will add that Anastasia has grown even more as a performer since joining Plushenko

 

[cohen-esque]

BTW:

Where exactly is Posture supposed to be addressed in scoring?
https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...96-program-component-chart-id-sp-2018-19/file

I would have assumed under Skating Skills but not really after checking this link. Hmm..Maybe under interpretation or performance? Maybe just a tiny fraction of both?

“Carriage and clarity of movement” (PE) is the most obviously relevant, and then “quality” (TR), and “multidimensional use of space and design of movements” (CO, and something more skating choreographers should consider in general), “expressing the character/feeling of the music” and “finesse” (IN) are all things that can be significantly impacted by poor posture. To varying degrees, projection (PE) can be affected, as well.

If we see the actual definitions as being relevant, and not just the checklist under them, then for SS “the clarity of technique and use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed” is not going to entail having to hunch over to gain speed, and of course, the use of “deep, clean edges” and “balanced/rhythmic knee action” in order to gain and vary speed, on their own, should be preferred over a reliance on bent posture.

Edit: the old ISU PCS guidelines were *much* more detailed and comprehensive; it’s possible they directly referenced posture within one or more components, but I can’t find one of the older charts.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

“Carriage and clarity of movement” (PE) is the most obviously relevant, and then “quality” (TR), and “multidimensional use of space and design of movements” (CO, and something more skating choreographers should consider in general), “expressing the character/feeling of the music” and “finesse” (IN) are all things that can be significantly impacted by poor posture. To varying degrees, projection (PE) can be affected, as well.

If we see the actual definitions as being relevant, and not just the checklist under them, then for SS “the clarity of technique and use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed” is not going to entail having to hunch over to gain speed, and of course, the use of “deep, clean edges” and “balanced/rhythmic knee action” in order to gain and vary speed, on their own, should be preferred over a reliance on bent posture.

I appreciate the response :agree:

Did they remove the term posture from the handbook or has it always been absent?

 

[cohen-esque]

I appreciate the response :agree:

Did they remove the term posture from the handbook or has it always been absent?

Oh, I just edited about this. I’m not actually sure; the PCS scores did used to be a whole lot more detailed before this last quad. And after the ISU overhauled their site, it’s difficult to find the old manuals.

 

[[email protected]]

Why is poor posture discussed here? Someone thinks that Russian ladies have bad posture?

Yes, some posters here want us to believe that Japanese skaters overall have better posture and skating skills than the Russians especially those who are with Eteri who is just the genius of maximizing scores. Nothing new.

 

[Edwin]

Has Tutberidze c.s. ever been offered a job abroad?

Would they accept an offer 'one cannot refuse' salary wise, etc., or would they prefer to stay where they are and work with the very best of the best young skaters from the country they way they want and think works out best? Like working in China with limitless budget to get CHN a gold medal in figure skating?

My guess is they'd rather stay at Khrustalniy, because that's the only place where they can work with children and adolescents the way they think is best.

Abroad in the west, you'd have to deal with parents and sponsors' money, 'skating mums' and a whole different culture with regard to pushing kids to their limits and beyond. Not to mention the legal aspects of child labour rules, medical insurance etc etc.

Perhaps in a decade from now?

 

[Globetrotter]

Yes, some posters here want us to believe that Japanese skaters overall have better posture and skating skills than the Russians especially those who are with Eteri who is just the genius of maximizing scores. Nothing new.

Let’s not take this as Russian bashing. I don’t think anyone was implying that. There were just posts using examples of skaters like Zhenya and Zagi having to muscle and use their upper bodies to make their turns which makes for poorer carriage and glide. This was fundamentally hypothesized to be a relative weakness in the SS. We don’t see this issue in skaters like say Trusova and especially Kostornaia who have IMO stronger bladework.

 

[DenissVFan]

Liza is jumping again
(Zhenya commented "" under her post.)

 

[Globetrotter]

OK, this raises the question: isnt it what all good professionals should do? Her team knows how to customize programmes to make their skaters look good and to get them maximum points. Raises another question: what stopping other coaches doing exactly that with their students? Is not it what sport is all about? To become better version of yourself and to squeeze as many points as possible?

You speaking like you exactly know her methods. Zhenya start losing it after not following doctor's advices and not wearing that orthopedic boot, and doing sponsors events and commercial shoots in Japan instead of giving her foot a rest despite all demands by coaches and doctors. Unfortunately she went South after Japan. Her silver at Olympics is her grit and super hardwork by coaches and herself. But being so reckless about health less than half a year before the main competition of her career was highly unprofessional and immature of Zhenya. As for Alina, well, she is growing. 7-10cm of extra height in a year is no joke. This affects her. So we wait and see. Also Brian Orser promised us Zhenya to have better SS. So we wait and see. I would love that.

Well, Eteri and everyone in her team are relatively very young coaches. Extremely young. They are adaptable and demonstrate ability to learn. Yulia was better than Polina. Zhenya is better than Yulia (and I love Lipnitskaya to pieces). Zhenya and Alina have comparable SS, but Alina is a better jumper. Current crop (3A squad) is turning seniors next year, but in terms of SS Alyona is already superior than Zhenya and Alina. Sasha and Anna is solid, and I'm sure they will be even better, better than Zhenya and Alina. And future generation that turn junior next season - Daria, Kamila and another awesome unknown skater in the wings - already at their age of 12 showing off their solid SS and artistry.

Frankly, I want to see any other non-Eteri 12-year-olds with comparable skating. There are some, but they are happen to live Russia too. Why we don't really see anyone produced by our North American coaches lately? Lovely Osmand only comes to mind. I see a lot of young girls training here in UTC Westfiled and SD ice arena. None of them can skate now like Russian or Japanese ladies do. Why can't they? Consistency in jumping - I get it, a lot of runthroughs and a lot of competing in different cities needed (like Russians are doing from the very young ages). That's USFS job. But I can't see any young skater at my local ice rinks even remotely comparable to up&coming crop in Moscow in term of SS. There always should be a potential to improve, to find new methods and to grow, but I feel like our North American coaches really did not get some sort of new memo or a book with new coaching methods or smth. Dunno. I don't get it.

As you mentioned, Eteri and the Sambo 70 coaches are relatively new. I think they don’t have the baggages and expectations of the old guards. You can say that Eteri is relentless in a tough, pragmatic approach to max out scores but based on the skaters coming out of each quad, I can see that the method and approach looks different and is improving. Zagi and Med are from the previous quad. I am sure Eteri would have taken note of their struggles post growth and adjusted her methods for younger skaters accordingly, like for the 3As. Alyona is clearly the star example and I also think Trusova has very solid SS that is stronger than her predecessors, although she is weaker in the more performance aspect. Scherbakova is the most musical and reminds me of Cohen. I do see their stronger basics and although it remains to be seen, my gut feel is they will be less prone to the growing pains experienced by their predecessors due to their stronger foundation.

Why we don’t see any of this outside Russia, except for maybe Japan, is I think due to the emphasis and popularity of the sport. I recently traveled through Narita to the Midwest and Mao Asada and Marin Honda and Yuzu and Shoma were seen in lots of adverts in Narita. Japanese TV had skating interviews and stuff. I didn’t see the equivalent in US and my hypothesis is that FS is far less popular in US than Japan. I have not been through Russia but my gut feel is that skating is also more popular there than in North America. How much the federations are able to sell the popularity to the fans and public does matter. Asada, Yuzu and now Rika are the major faces for a Japan. Zhenya to me had been the real star of Russia as she has that charm and natural audience connection. The US? There is no MKwan equivalent, no Davis and White. Canada lost most of their PR greats after the last quad of PChan, Duhamel and Radford retired and Kaetlyn sat out this year. The lack of PR continuity surely contributed to the loss in popularity.

 

[Edwin]

Valid points.

Figure skating is like gymnastics, you have to plan towards the future, sometimes two Olympic cycles in advance.
Also, figure skating like gymnastics is an individual sport which puts high time and commitment demands on both athletes and their coaches.
While the kids essentially work for free, the coaches have their own financial burdens to fulfil.
Since the number of elite athletes per coach are small and good facilities are a necessity, this makes the sport of figure skating relatively expensive per head per year.
It is good all those rinks have ice hockey teams regularly training and playing, proceedings from the team sport of ice hockey can sustain the rink to stay in business for figure skating.

Few programs have this stamina and long term planning, few sponsors this long term desire to invest and few Russian parents from the typical upper working class the skaters come from have this amount of money to spend on their child's tuition and training.
I believe it can cost the US parent up to 100K for quite some years each, to have their child on the road to making the US national team in gymnastics.

 

[sx98423]

Has Tutberidze c.s. ever been offered a job abroad?

Would they accept an offer 'one cannot refuse' salary wise, etc., or would they prefer to stay where they are and work with the very best of the best young skaters from the country they way they want and think works out best? Like working in China with limitless budget to get CHN a gold medal in figure skating?

My guess is they'd rather stay at Khrustalniy, because that's the only place where they can work with children and adolescents the way they think is best.

Abroad in the west, you'd have to deal with parents and sponsors' money, 'skating mums' and a whole different culture with regard to pushing kids to their limits and beyond. Not to mention the legal aspects of child labour rules, medical insurance etc etc.

Perhaps in a decade from now?

lmao at this weak attempt to stir up drama but i'll bite. "skating moms" are not only a north american thing, they're pretty universal. eteri has talked about dealing with parents before, yulia's mom sounded like handful. she's also coached in america before so i'm pretty sure she knows about child labour laws and insurance. and from what i've seen she's not "pushing kids to their limits and beyond", it seems like the kids are trying to push themselves to their limits and she and her team try their best to deal with it.

at the end of the day it'd probably be business as usual, eteri would keep coaching winners and people would keep finding new things to complain about

 

[Edwin]

LOL, I am not here to create drama.

What works in and for Russia doesn't necessarily have to work elsewhere.

The basis of success in any sport are the same, the circumstances differ.