- Joined
- Sep 23, 2017
Hmmm I don’t know, 6 men out of 100 is not really a lot. Plus the 4A should be worth a lot more than 12.5 then, it dropped by 2.5 points!
2018-2019 Season - New rules
- Thread starter enzofv
- Start date
Hmmm I don’t know, 6 men out of 100 is not really a lot. Plus the 4A should be worth a lot more than 12.5 then, it dropped by 2.5 points!
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
I guess it depends on your perspective. I’m not sure where you took the figure of 100 guys from, but I think the more relevant statistic is that out of the top 24 guys in World Standing, 7 (I’m adding Samarin) landed it with + GOE this season, and two others (Messing, Rippon) attempted it. That means:
- 37.5% of top 24 (9 men) attempted 4Z in competition this season
- 29% of top 24 (7 men) successfully landed 4Z in competition this season
- 78% of the guys who attempted the 4Z in competition this season landed it successfully
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2010
Really? Perhaps when Kerrigan was landing 3toe-3toe they quickly "equaled" it with a 2axel-2toe so that Baiul would be competitive too?
lol
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2018
Zhou and Aliev both lack actual 4Lzs (both fail to complete the required rotations, and the latter has extremely questionable entry technique), and Kolyada landed his twice out of something like 17 (or more) attempts. Which means the actual number of guys with Real Quad Lutzes is three: Boyang (the undisputed master), Chen, and Hanyu (assuming he goes back to the jump).
I fail to see the epidemic of quad lutzes that others do. Only Boyang has a rock-solid one. Chen’s has an inverse correlation with his 4F (if he’s doing well with one, the other is going poorly). And Hanyu was injured training his and never finished developing the jump. Not exactly a common element, at least by my standards.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
Again, it depends on your perspective. Your definition of what counts as a jump is apparently different than mine - all I stated was the number of skaters who attempted it this season, and how many landed it with + GOE, whereas you are seemingly taking into account whether they’re “properly” done and/or aesthetically pleasing to you, how consistent they are, and the skater’s success rate. If you think about it, there are a lot of ugly, popped, two footed, underrotated 4Ts out there too, and not everyone attempts or lands them consistently, either.
Four years ago, to the best of my knowledge, not a single senior man was attempting 4Zs in competition, and in fact, only a few guys had ever done so over the years. This season there were 9 men attempting them, and 7 of the 9 landed them successfully from the judges’ perspective. That’s not an epidemic (I’m not sure who said it was, but it wasn’t me) but it is a huge change, IMO. Again, IMO, it suggests the 4Z isn’t quite as hard as people previously assumed it was. Whether the ISU agrees and decides it warrants a lower BV is up to them, not me.
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2018
I’m just racking up billable hours as Satan’s general counsel. [emoji23] I’ve seen comments on how the 4Lz is everywhere now and while I’m not disputing the fact that seven men landed one according to ISU last season, I also think we are not yet living in the age of the 4Lz being standard.
As far as BV changes go, I haven’t heard anything specific, other than that quads were taking a uniform 10% BV reduction on top of the 30-40% BV reduction jumps are already taking to move points into GOEs. Whether or not the lutz will be specifically targeted... who knows? I guess I’m just waiting to see the new BVs and SoV.
I’ll be curious to see if “no negative features for positive GOE” as confirmed for ice dancing is applicable across all disciplines, and what, if any, negative GOE bullets there are. If each GOE level equates to 10% of BV, TES potentially becomes very volatile. (Last rumour batch said mandatory -5 GOE for falls, -3 for step-outs. Take with plenty of salt.)
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2014
I always heard that the ISU doesn't officially keep track of World Records for this reason? Like the scoring system also changed between Vancouver and Sochi, and before that between Torino and Vancouver, so you can't really compare them (which is why I don't get the bruhaha over Yuna's scores been broken...or not, it doesn't really mean anything).
Having said that I did notice Med was in the Guineness Book of World Records for her scores last season, so I guess they care.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2017
I always heard that the ISU doesn't officially keep track of World Records for this reason? Like the scoring system also changed between Vancouver and Sochi, and before that between Torino and Vancouver, so you can't really compare them (which is why I don't get the bruhaha over Yuna's scores been broken...or not, it doesn't really mean anything).
Having said that I did notice Med was in the Guineness Book of World Records for her scores last season, so I guess they care.
I think WRs never matter in FS. There're always different panels, and for them different scores mean different things. It's a judged sport.
I think this is a failure of IJS. It tried to quantify everything, but never managed to make everything have the same meaning. No transparency.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
Heh heh - bill away, I’m sure the devil will be glad to pay...
. Seriously, I don’t disagree with you that most 4Zs we’ve seen this year leave a lot to be desired. And I honestly don’t know whether changing BV is the best way to achieve higher quality, more balanced programs. But I hope they do something soon, because I really don’t like where men’s skating is heading right now.
The currently active documents (easier to find on the USFS site):
Communication NO. 2089: Single & Pair Skating Scale of Values, Levels of Difficulty and Guidelines for marking Grade of Execution, season 2017/18
Just the GOE guidelines excerpted from the above document
Communication No. 2086: includes marking guildes for Grades of Execution for Sequences/Sections of Pattern Dances and for Required Elements
Marking guide for Grade of Execution of Sequences/Sections
Marking guide for Grade of Execution of Required Elements
There will probably significant changes in next year's version of these documents, but perhaps not in what is actually considered a negative GOE criterion.
Communication NO. 2089: Single & Pair Skating Scale of Values, Levels of Difficulty and Guidelines for marking Grade of Execution, season 2017/18
Just the GOE guidelines excerpted from the above document
Communication No. 2086: includes marking guildes for Grades of Execution for Sequences/Sections of Pattern Dances and for Required Elements
Marking guide for Grade of Execution of Sequences/Sections
Marking guide for Grade of Execution of Required Elements
There will probably significant changes in next year's version of these documents, but perhaps not in what is actually considered a negative GOE criterion.
http://tass.ru/opinions/interviews/5078235
According to Lakernik, they have idea to forbid repeating the same type of quad jump. It will be decided on ISU Congress.
I hope it will not be supported.
They also want to reduce bonuses for jumps in the second half of the program.
According to Lakernik, they have idea to forbid repeating the same type of quad jump. It will be decided on ISU Congress.
I hope it will not be supported.
They also want to reduce bonuses for jumps in the second half of the program.
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2018
The targeting of the 10% backhalf bonus isn’t new. ISU just couldn’t reach a consensus last time — according to the rumour batch, they were split between limiting the number of times the bonus was applied or some change in PCS about distribution of elements, so that the benefits of successfully executing a fully backloaded programme would be (theoretically) offset elsewhere.
As for the proposal to limit quad repetitions... go home, Lakernik, and stop button-mashing. Though if I understand ISU’s own rules correctly (and that’s a big if), this proposal would need a two-thirds majority to pass, correct? Then again, stranger things have happened.
Now that's just silly. I remember Yuzu saying someting like tech shouldn't work agains art, but for it (I don't remember the source, sorry), and I think that's very true. Good technical (solid skating skills, being able to have connecting steps into difficult jumps etc.) can very much help the artistic impression of a program. That's why limiting tech like that is not only going against the idea of what sport is imo, but also against the artistic side of FS. I get the +-5 GOE and also the reduced base values (but how that plays out will depend a lot on the new GOE bullets and how exactly BV is to be reduced), but no repeating quads and reducing the bonus won't help anything. The first point will only make it necessary to train more types of quads to catch up on BV to the likes of Nathan, who has many different difficult quads in his repertoir. The second will only lead to frontloaded programs. I really hope they don't pass these.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2013
I think that that's a terrible idea. The focus should just be on penalizing poor landings / falls / URs on the quads accurately. But there's nothing wrong with actually good, clean quads. That sort of a focus would also encourage the skaters to only perform quads they are good at.
I think what they should look into is judges giving out +2 or +3 GOE like candy for any remotely clean jump and completely ignoring SP's "preceding steps"-requirement for the solo jump(good luck finding any preceding steps for solo quads but somehow they still don't get -3 GOE).
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2014
Haven't read through the whole thread, but I just wanted to voice an idea here.
I think it would be a great change for judges to have to note what bullets an element satisfied to receive the GOE they give. I think this could reel in some of the obscure GOEs that jumping passes tend to get. "That jump was good! I'll give it a +3!" Ok, but for what, exactly? "Uh... well, it matched the music...." So, +1? "........."
I understand that is another thing judges would have to mark down. With 8 possible bullets for each element (right?), could they mark it quickly enough? That I'm not sure of, as I've never been a judge. :scratch3:
I think it would be a great change for judges to have to note what bullets an element satisfied to receive the GOE they give. I think this could reel in some of the obscure GOEs that jumping passes tend to get. "That jump was good! I'll give it a +3!" Ok, but for what, exactly? "Uh... well, it matched the music...." So, +1? "........."
I understand that is another thing judges would have to mark down. With 8 possible bullets for each element (right?), could they mark it quickly enough? That I'm not sure of, as I've never been a judge. :scratch3:
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2013
No negative features is just for the +4 or +5 GOE.
The ISU congress is scheduled for the beginning of June.
We'll see what they will approve, and what they won't.
Also note that in order for a rule to change a simple majority is not enough.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2013
What would be nice is if the judges had a pull down tab and instead of assigning numbers they all just selected the bullets that each jump satisfied and then the computer would factor up all of the panel’s bullets and assign GOE. There just probably is not enough time during live scoring for the judges to accurately accomplish this.
You could have random audits where after an event each judge has one program selected and writes up a report on which they address the bullets. I wish they did pressers where people could ask questions about specific elements and scores, Oh my lord...the popcorn!!!!
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2014
Actually, that was my proposal at begining of the season when i saw too many competition failed to be watchable. But the point in that proposal is not to minimize number of quads in programs (nobody wanted to say you can jump only 2quads or 3 quads per program). Cause skaters who can jump 2 type of quads they will jump those 2 instead of 3, skaters who can jump 5 type of quads will jump 5 instead of 6 etc So that is just one quad less per program per skater. Not a big deal really. The point is that skaters will have only one chance to perform that type of element in their program. So skater who fail to perform that element clean will be properly punished for failing it (when he has no chance to try it again). And actually thats how things work in many sports.
