2018-2019 Season - New rules

[Mathman]

"Quality" is already a criterion for the Transitions score. "Quantity" is not.

The current criteria are:
*Continuity of movements from one element to another (which is also more qualitative than quantitative)
*Variety
*Difficulty
*Quality

Still, I think you need to have a certain "quantity" of transitional elements before you can begin talking about variety, difficulty, etc.

 

[Mathman]

The proposals by Japan and Canada about the backloading bans just make them look petty and childish, sorry. It's too blatantly targeted.

I don't think we need to draw that conclusion. I think people just realized that the backloading thing, though passed through the rules committees with good intentions (to penalize frontloading), turned out to push the sport too far in the opposite direction. Now they want to right the ship a little. Don't worry about Alina Zagitova -- she'll land on her feet.

 

[kwanatic]

Maybe I'm just bored but I'm actually reading through most of this. With the ISU being all about expanding and appealing to the masses it'd be really smart to allow fans to vote on this stuff as well. They wouldn't have to guarantee the results would be used but at least it would let them know where the fans stand on these decisions that will be implemented in the sport we consume.

194) Netherlands - Rule 353 (1.j.): Splitting the judging panel

Our sport is getting more and more complex and therefore more demanding to judge. The revised GOE range of +5 to -5 will require more accuracy of the Judges to assess correctly. Therefore the task to assess also more than 20 criteria within the Program Components is getting too much for an individual Judge. It will be more fair to both Judges and skaters if the Program Components will be assessed by a separate panel of Judges.

100% for this! This was one of the suggestions I had when it came to making the sport fairer and less bias. It may help to eliminate some of the across the board PCS scoring judges are prone to...in a perfect world at least. But they make a valid point: it's ridiculous to expect a judge to accurately evaluate all of those elements and criteria within the small time frame they have to get scores in. I'd love to see this one go through...


197) Canada - Rule 353 (1.h.iv.) - Limiting jumping pass bonus in SP & FS

In the Short Program and Free Skating of Single Skating the Base Values (but not the GOEs) for all jump Elements started in the second half of the program will be multiplied by a special factor 1.1 in order to give credit for even distribution of difficulties in the program, with a maximum of 2 in the Short Program and 4 in the Free program.

Reason: The rule is intended to award credit for even distribution of difficulties in the program, therefore this change will ensure even distribution and reward balanced programs.

Again, another suggestion I'd like to see enacted. The process of backloading has gotten ridiculous and it really needs to be nipped in the bud ASAP. The good thing about this is if skaters wanted to put every pass in the 2nd half they can...they just won't get extra credit for it. I really think this needs to happen. If "balance" is going to continue to be a criteria in PCS then this rule needs to happen.

Japan proposed to limit it to only one solo jump in the SP (not the combo) and only three jumps in the FS. I like the proposed Canadian split more...

Honestly these are the two I'm crossing my fingers on.. and a tano/rippon limit which I'm sure is in here somewhere too. Back to reading!

 

[gkelly]

Still, I think you need to have a certain "quantity" of transitional elements before you can begin talking about variety, difficulty, etc.

For variety, yes, you need at least 3 or 4 notable transitions in order to have at least 3 or 4 different kinds of transitions. But if they're all difficult, that would cover both variety and difficulty without high quantity.

And "Continuity of movement" (which replaces "intricacy" as of a couple years ago) as I understand it doesn't need any additional named moves, just a lack of telegraphing/tightening up before elements and a general sense of every move flowing into the next.

Imagine the following two men's short programs:

Nice fluid stroking with simple turns and simple fluid arm movements into 4T+3T
Back counter into 3A
Hydroblading directly into spin
Russian split, mazurka, Russian split into 3F
Step sequence ending with stars directly into spin

Nothing else you could note down as a highlighted transition, just more simple stroking and fluid but not highlighted use of the arms and upper body, but everything performed well and continuously
That could score well on all 4 criteria without a lot of quantity.

Another program could have something between every element: many arm movements, steps and turns, and very brief Ina Bauers or inside spread eagles that serve more as additional steps within a series of steps than as sustained glides, but the edges are shallow, the turns are often not clean, and there is also usually a pause between each set of steps and each jump so that none of the jumps including the solo jump come right out of preceding steps.

That should score lower on all 4 official criteria even though the program would look busier and if you were counting up the number of times the skater was doing "something" between elements the quantity would be higher.

 

[kwanatic]

A few more...

259) Rule 611, para 2: Eliminate required steps before solo jump

I guess I'm for this as well. It's so rare that skaters are sufficiently punished for not having, it just makes sense to remove it and allow and preceding steps to be rewarded with GOE.


260) Rule 611, para 3: Mandatory spin and solo jump

Basically this one proposes to treat the seniors singles similar to the juniors where each season a mandatory solo jump and spin is required. The jump and spin would change season to season. For example: For both men and women in the 2018-2019 season the solo jump would be a flip and the spin a flying camel. This means men wouldn't be able to repeat the camel position and would be required to have their second spin be a sit spin (with the combo as the third).

The reason I think this would be good is because (1) it forces skaters to develop the correct technique and (should) punish those who have bad technique or get by with omitting certain jumps or spins. By the time skaters hit the senior level they should be able to execute all of the triples... (2) It will result in a switch up of the elements so maybe we won't see the exact same layout multiple seasons in a row. Different elements should add a bit of variety.

I actually like this idea. The only thing I would change is to specify the solo jump must be triple or quadruple (for both men and women). As it's written in the communication it says "double or triple;" I say no less than triple for either discipline and people should have the option to do a solo quad as well.


261) Rule 612: Limits quads to only one each
The same rules apply for doubles, double axels and triple jumps (no more than 2, second in combination of the triple) but it goes on to say that no quad can be repeated in a program. Meaning if you only have a 4T you can't do a solo and combo with that jump; it'd be one or the other.

I don't know how I feel about that. On one hand it levels the playing field somewhat but it's also a bit stifling. There's still an advantage for those who can do quads. If you have 4 different quads you can still have 4 quads in your program. I just suppose the maximum number of quads would be 5 in a program...

Back to reading


ETA: That's pretty much all I found. There is stuff in there about the +/- 5 GOE scale and something about a fall/interruption to a program requiring a mandatory deduction in PCS which makes sense but I don't think they went into depth when it comes to how much of a deduction it should be. I didn't see anything about tanos/rippons palmf so apparently that's not as troubling to them as it is to a lot of us.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

I don't like the mandatory jump for juniors and definitely don't want it in seniors. It's too stifling -- for example, last year, Alina couldn't do her 3Lz-3Lo in the short because of that stupid solo 3Lo requirement

 

[chopinskate]

No mandatory jumps.

What will they even have for men? Not everyone has the capacity for quads. So triples?

 

[Shayuki]

I don't like the mandatory jump for juniors and definitely don't want it in seniors. It's too stifling -- for example, last year, Alina couldn't do her 3Lz-3Lo in the short because of that stupid solo 3Lo requirement

Yep. It seems to hurt the -3Lo combos the most. Especially if a skater only has one -3Lo combo they can perform, like 3Lz-3Lo or 3F-3Lo. That way, they could perform such a combo only every three years.

Also, if they make Lutz the mandatory jump, for men it'll cause gigantic shifts because some skaters can 4Lz and others cannot. A difference between 4S and 4Lz isn't so huge, but a difference between 4Lz and 3Lz is completely insurmountable.


In my opinion, it's one of the worst rules in juniors.

 

[yoloaxel]

Wow I actually disagree with all the last 3 rules mentioned - especially numer 2 and 3 just seem silly to me. I understand limiting the number of quads in a program, but no repeating the same quad more than once is way too strict.

 

[kwanatic]

I still like the idea of mandatory elements. It puts everyone on the same playing field so you get a clear view of where skaters are strong and where they are lacking. A skater who has no flutz/lip issues will thrive in this kind of scenario b/c it showcases their stronger technique.

Having a mandatory jump forces skaters to add variety and find ways to make up points in other ways. It wouldn't be a big deal if Alina couldn't do a 3Lz-3L in the SP for one year. She's capable of other combos. Plus she could do it in the FS where there are no jump restrictions.

 

[kwanatic]

Yep. It seems to hurt the -3Lo combos the most. Especially if a skater only has one -3Lo combo they can perform, like 3Lz-3Lo or 3F-3Lo. That way, they could perform such a combo only every three years.

Also, if they make Lutz the mandatory jump, for men it'll cause gigantic shifts because some skaters can 4Lz and others cannot. A difference between 4S and 4Lz isn't so huge, but a difference between 4Lz and 3Lz is completely insurmountable.


In my opinion, it's one of the worst rules in juniors.

The 3L would be a solo jump once every 4 or 5 years. It's not that big of a disadvantage and it would encourage skaters to add variety to their arsenal. Besides, the skater can still do the loop combos in the FS.

I think they do it in juniors as a way to spot check technique for skaters who are still learning and developing. Clearly, with all of the flutzing and lipping going on, there's a large number of senior skaters who need a bit of spot checking too.

No mandatory jumps.

What will they even have for men? Not everyone has the capacity for quads. So triples?

I mean, that's what has been happening. In the SP there are men who have solo quads and others have solo triples.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

But they never pick the toe because barely anyone can do -3Lo combos, and they never pick the salchow either
so it's like every 3 years... and that's too many rules for me

 

[Shayuki]

The 3L would be a solo jump once every 4 or 5 years. It's not that big of a disadvantage and it would encourage skaters to add variety to their arsenal. Besides, the skater can still do the loop combos in the FS.

I think they do it in juniors as a way to spot check technique for skaters who are still learning and developing. Clearly, with all of the flutzing and lipping going on, there's a large number of senior skaters who need a bit of spot checking too.

At least in the juniors, the rotating jumps are Flip, Lutz and Loop so that'd be every 3 years. Also, many skaters can only do one -3Lo combo. Which in itself is quite a bit. I can only think of Alexandra Trusova who has actually done multiple ones.

Take Anna Shcherbakova, for instance. She can only do 3Lz-3Lo. The only year she could perform this combo is when the Flip is the solo jump of choice. During 3Lz or 3Lo years she couldn't.

And no, I don't think it's reasonable to expect a skater to be able to perform several -3Lo combos. Just being able to perform one should be rewarded more.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I don't think we need to draw that conclusion. I think people just realized that the backloading thing, though passed through the rules committees with good intentions (to penalize frontloading).

Not really. The intention was to reward jumps on tired legs. Cause their GOE is generally lower that was a way for later jumps to be scored with same points as first jumps. Implication of that for skaters is to be free to put more jumps later in the programme. Only now federations (Canada) are giving that kind of a reason ('balance'/'even distribution') for proposals which i find only restrictive. Cause we will watch the same distributions of elements in every programme again and again. Which could be only boring! Those federations should look how to make FS competitions less boring to watch for casual viewers, not just to make FS competitions easier for their skaters! I hope ISU wont agree with many of that and instead find a way to reward different approaches to programmes. I know one of their main goals is versatility, so i hope it will stay that way

 

[kwanatic]

At least in the juniors, the rotating jumps are Flip, Lutz and Loop so that'd be every 3 years. Also, many skaters can only do one -3Lo combo. Which in itself is quite a bit. I can only think of Alexandra Trusova who has actually done multiple ones.

Take Anna Shcherbakova, for instance. She can only do 3Lz-3Lo. The only year she could perform this combo is when the Flip is the solo jump of choice. During 3Lz or 3Lo years she couldn't.

And no, I don't think it's reasonable to expect a skater to be able to perform several -3Lo combos. Just being able to perform one should be rewarded more.

It'd likely be those 3 jumps as well, so you're right. Still, I don't think it'd be such a bad idea.

It would shine light on the good (those with solid technique) and the bad (those without). If I skater can't do their favorite 3L combo, they'd have to adjust. Again, this is a plus IMO because it encourages variety and versatility. If 3L is the only combo a skater can manage having this rule would encourage/force them to broaden their technical arsenal which is a win-win.

Shake skaters out of their comfort zone. Make them do something different. I'm here for that. Like I said, it'd be nice not to see the exact same layout for 4 years in a row...

I doubt if that proposal would go through but I do think it would be interesting to see how skaters would respond.

 

[Shayuki]

It likely wouldn't be the only combo they would manage... They can also do a -3T combo, obviously. But during those years, they wouldn't be able to differentiate themselves from others with their -3Lo combo, which in my opinion is not a good thing.

And I am not sure how having to perform the same 2 elements as everyone else would bring any sort of variety. The only thing would be with the flutz and lip jumps but the sacrifice of -3Lo combos is in my opinion not worth it.

 

[gkelly]

Remember that there are many senior ladies who will never get to Worlds but who do compete internationally, and even more within their home countries only, who will never master all or maybe any of 3Lo, 3F, and 3Lz.

It's not just a matter of good technique, but also of body type including muscle fiber composition.

Right now (for approximately the last 20 years) the SP rules require seniors to do at least 2 different triples and a double axel. The maximum content is much higher especially for men, but that's the minimum bar to be able to compete as a credible senior at all, even if far from medal contention.

And if the goal is to reward good technique, which would show that better? A strong 2Lz, for example, or 3Lz<< or 3Lze (or both rotation and edge issues) as a compromise in an attempt to try to get some credit for the element.

Until a few years ago skaters who doubled the required triples in the SP either intentionally or by mistake earned -3 GOE off the value of the double jumps. Recently that changed so that now they get no points at all for doubles. But they are allowed to choose their best or second-best triple for the solo jump. If you require a jump that they simply are not physically capable of rotating and landing no matter how good their overall technique, with 0 points for doubles, that is not magically going to make them able to rotate any faster in the air.

By requiring the more difficult triples, in effect you'd be telling even more young women they're not welcome in the sport, not at senior B events, not at 4 Continents even if they're the best skaters in a developing program, not in their national events, after they turn 19.

 

[karne]

These two proposals come from ISU Single and Pair Technical Committee (composition is Italy, Japan, Australia, Belgium, USA and Switzerland)

Ah dinga-linga-ling! There you go.

I don't think we need to draw that conclusion. I think people just realized that the backloading thing, though passed through the rules committees with good intentions (to penalize frontloading), turned out to push the sport too far in the opposite direction. Now they want to right the ship a little. Don't worry about Alina Zagitova -- she'll land on her feet.

I think it's the only conclusion to draw. Particularly given it was put forward by two countries whose ladies spent most of the season getting beaten by skaters who were using the backloading rule effectively.

194) Netherlands - Rule 353 (1.j.): Splitting the judging panel

No proposal that I've seen for this ever adequately addresses the many concerns I have about this concept. What levels is this done at? Is there a line drawn? It is just for the Olympics? Just for ISU Championship events? Will National Championship events be required to have it? GP events? What about Challenger events? If it's only for a handful of events, how are we supposed to compare scores between split events and non-split events? Should those events even count for SB or will non-split events not count? Will member nations be required to trickle this down to club level? And if so, what about the clubs who can barely scrape together a single panel for a comp? Will there be some kind of compensatory system so that comps who can't afford split panels can import judges?

197) Canada - Rule 353 (1.h.iv.) - Limiting jumping pass bonus in SP & FS
Again, another suggestion I'd like to see enacted. The process of backloading has gotten ridiculous and it really needs to be nipped in the bud ASAP.

Nip what in the bud? There was literally ONE skater running an 0-7 layout. She happened to be very, very good at it. There was nothing stopping the other countries' skaters from trying similar layouts! Nothing at all!

This is a targeted rule and it looks so damn petty and childish. "Our ladies struggle to beat Zagitova so let's get the rules changed." Anyone who thinks this isn't targeted is naive at best.

259) Rule 611, para 2: Eliminate required steps before solo jump

I guess I'm for this as well.

No! I hope this one doesn't get up. Instead they should focus on making sure judges adequately punish ALL skaters who don't do the steps before solo jump (not just selective punishment based on your status, flag and ranking).

The answer to some skaters deliberately breaking the rule knowing they won't get hit for it is NOT to remove the rule!

260) Rule 611, para 3: Mandatory spin and solo jump

Basically this one proposes to treat the seniors singles similar to the juniors where each season a mandatory solo jump and spin is required. The jump and spin would change season to season. For example: For both men and women in the 2018-2019 season the solo jump would be a flip and the spin a flying camel. This means men wouldn't be able to repeat the camel position and would be required to have their second spin be a sit spin (with the combo as the third).

I'm half and half on this. While I like the idea overall, gkelly made an excellent point; what about the lower-ranked skaters who can't do 3Lz? What about domestic competition? If you're going to have a mandatory solo jump maybe allowing it to be a double without punishment could be an alternative.

261) Rule 612: Limits quads to only one each
I don't know how I feel about that. On one hand it levels the playing field somewhat

How? It tips the playing field straight into Nathan Chen's arms. It's a terrible proposal. There's nothing wrong with a skater doing, say, a three quad layout by repeating the Salchow, for example. Let the Zayak rule do its job.

I didn't see anything about tanos/rippons palmf so apparently that's not as troubling to them as it is to a lot of us.

Good! There shouldn't be anything about tanos/rippons! If other countries are upset about it they can teach their ladies to do them and then they can get points from it too!

 

[Mathman]

Nip what in the bud? There was literally ONE skater running an 0-7 layout. ...

I think that's what people mean by "the bud." Next year there might be two. Then it will have to be nipped in the blossom.

To me, the proposal is harmless. A good backloader will get 2.0 bonus points instead of 3.5. Maybe a skater will prefer to show stamina by putting a rip-roaring step sequence right at the end instead, while spacing the "highlight elements" throughout the program as dictated by the music. I don't see this proposal as a biggie one way or another.

The quad thing, I can see the ISU's dilemma. We do not want a situation where a skater does 6 quads and nothing else, picking up automatic 9.25s in PCS along the way, and running away with the competition. And yet -- quads are the hardest jump, they should get the most points, so what are you going to do?

It is easy to say that the judges should do better on the PCSs. But they are not going to. So that hope is out the window. The judges will give the most points to the skaters that they think skated the best. If "skating the best" means doing the most quads, I think figure skating is stuck. ( Don't blame the messenger.)

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I think that's what people mean by "the bud." Next year there might be two. Then it will have to be nipped in the blossom.

To me, the proposal is harmless. A good backloader will get 2.0 bonus points instead of 3.5.

Then, those are people who didnt watch figure skating that closely. Cause second half bonus is there for many many years now and we got only one skater who did fully backloaded program. The only problem is cause she won with it, nothing more. Cause im sure many other tried it, and we even saw two time world champion did, and didn't succeed with it... I agree proposal is harmless in a 'getting the points' way, cause im quite sure good backloader will perform those second half jumps stronger at the begining of the programme and get better GOE for it. But it is not harmless in a way that it will restrict skaters to try something different. And thats the problem. My opinion is - If they want 'fairer competitions' they should give other type of bonuses, not to restrict some of them. Mens competition maybe deserves some restriction though. Cause Olympics were the only watchable competition of them from the whole last season.