2018 US Men's Oly/World/4CC team announced

[Putina]

My point was that the selections are being explained with check marks, when it should be some sort of weighted numbers. But no one is telling us what those numbers are. I don't think they exist. They're just looking at a bunch of things and saying 3 apples and 4 oranges vs 4 apples, 2 oranges, and a tangerine. Oh yes, the first bag of fruit is better (unless you really like tangerines, or the colour of the second bag).

I think that is why there is a vote, not a score comparison. From what I have heard from the interview the vote was 11-1. Hard to tell from the interview what exactly the vote was about, but apparently they agreed upon the final 3 who have taken the Olympic spots.

 

[charlotte14]

I frankly think they should have sent Ross over Vincent as both of them have no chance to medal. Vicent has all the time while Ross not that much. It's like they're robbing Ross. So much for all of this.

 

[el henry]

FWIW, I think BoP does like Jason actually. In fact, I think BOP put Jason's FS as his top performance of Skate Canada by a lot!

Here it is: https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/s...Skate-Canada&p=1826609&viewfull=1#post1826609

I think he's just making a case why Jason shouldn't get the Olympic spot over Adam, which is all a moot to me cause I don't think anyone is actually arguing for that, especially since Jason finished 6th.

That’s what I don’t understand; why go on and on about Jason v. Adam, when no one, not even Jason’s most ardent supporters, are arguing that *this year* Jason had a better year than Adam. He didn’t.

But to then engage in reviosionist history that Adam had a superior year to Jason *last year*, prior to Adam’s injury’s? Uh, I don’t think so, Tim....

And, this is just jumping off and not directly related to your post, I thought the point was that it was somehow OK to place Adam over Ross this year based on the fact that Adam had a better year than Jason, but not place Jason ahead of Ross, based on the fact that Adam had a better year than Jason.

I mean that just doesn’t even make any sense to write out?

 

[TontoK]

My point was that the selections are being explained with check marks, when it should be some sort of weighted numbers. But no one is telling us what those numbers are. I don't think they exist. They're just looking at a bunch of things and saying 3 apples and 4 oranges vs 4 apples, 2 oranges, and a tangerine. Oh yes, the first bag of fruit is better (unless you really like tangerines, or the colour of the second bag).

I get what you're saying, but I also think that if they're not going to treat USNats as the team trial (and don't worry, I'm not re-fighting that battle) then the committee does need some flexibility.

Vincent is a prime example. Because of choices made by the committee last year, he had no result from World's or 4CC, both of which are Tier 1 event and based on the merit of his skate at USNats last year, there was certainly a case to be made (the minimum score issue could have been addressed). And, he handily won the only post-USNats competition he was assigned, even if JWorld's is a Tier 3 event. In other words, he did all that he could with what they gave him.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I disagree with your assessment of last season. Jason did beat Adam at their two head to head match-ups: U.S. Classic and Skate America

The primary concern is PEAK performance, although I did get my timeline wrong. I thought 2015 Skate America was the competition where Jason did the Quad, but it was in fact 2016 Skate America. Still, Jason hasn't shown the same capability after his injury, whereas Adam has. Also, yeah, in terms of the criteria on paper (but I'll talk more about that in a moment) those competitions don't count anyway. Adam has outskated Jason this entire season, delivering better peak performance than anything Jason did last year during the criteria window as well. So that easily puts him ahead of Jason, and for Jason his "body of work" is not good enough to put him ahead of Ross or Vincent either, because he hasn't had any competition showings that are close to medal worthy at the World level. Ross and Vincent at 2018 Nationals exceed anything Jason has done during the criteria window.

Also I think USFS remembers when they opted to send Ross to Worlds when he beat Jeremy Abbott twice and then Ross bombed at Worlds and the US was unable to get three spots for Sochi.

I am 99% certain this played into the treatment Ross has received, even though it's not part of the selection criteria. You know, people have memories that are longer than 1 year old. Their perceptions and decisions have been informed by more than just the criteria they have stated. The criteria are nearly meaningless as written anyway, because there are no definitions at all about how much the Tiers are worth, or even if the competitions in each Tier are worth the same. They can justify nearly anything they want, the only way someone can ever be guaranteed a spot via the written rules is if they beat the other competitors on every listed criteria possible.

 

[Spinning]

My point was that the selections are being explained with check marks, when it should be some sort of weighted numbers. But no one is telling us what those numbers are. I don't think they exist. They're just looking at a bunch of things and saying 3 apples and 4 oranges vs 4 apples, 2 oranges, and a tangerine. Oh yes, the first bag of fruit is better (unless you really like tangerines, or the colour of the second bag).

TBH your fruit justification sound more reasonable than those from the USFSA's. After all eating fruit is much more healthy than trying to figure out the morality of this fiasco.

 

[TMC]

Well Jason on BOW for the last year hasn't been all that impressive and if you ranked him lower than Adam for Bow in the last year with his lower placement at Nats it would be enough to knock them out.

Yes, but again - if. ’If’ is the operative word. If they had interpreted the rules one way for one and one way for others, they could have done something else. And I honestly don’t think anybody’s trying to argue Jason v. Adam? I’m talking about the choice of 1st alternate and why the logic of picking Jason over Ross makes sense to USFS (even though I personally don’t agree with it).

 

[TMC]

Jason hasn't done anything to merit consideration over Adam. "Body of Work" is not supposed to mean checkmarks, it's supposed to be about assessing an athlete's peak abilities, looking beyond just one Nationals to see if there other times the athlete has delivered better. Last season on the Grand Prix, Adam gave a better performance than anything Jason did during that whole season. Adam got injured and couldn't compete the rest of the season or else he likely would have bumped Jason from the World team (and also finished 7th at Worlds, securing the 3 spots for the Men). Then this season Adam outdid Jason at literally every event.

Are you kidding? I know in this sport you’re only as good as your last competition but come on...Jason had an excellent 1st half of last season and beat Adam twice but bombed at NHK and Adam had an excellent half of 2nd half of the season and bombed at the GPF. They both did well and they both bombed. Saying that Adam’s season was decisively better is just wilfully ignoring how the judges ranked them, no matter how much you might prefer one’s style over the other’s.

ETA: I see that you got your seasons mixed up so that makes a bit more sense now

 

[Putina]

I get what you're saying, but I also think that if they're not going to treat USNats as the team trial (and don't worry, I'm not re-fighting that battle) then the committee does need some flexibility.

Vincent is a prime example. Because of choices made by the committee last year, he had no result from World's or 4CC, both of which are Tier 1 event and based on the merit of his skate at USNats last year, there was certainly a case to be made (the minimum score issue could have been addressed). And, he handily won the only post-USNats competition he was assigned, even if JWorld's is a Tier 3 event. In other words, he did all that he could with what they gave him.

This is a good reminder that "Body of Work" does not spring out of vacuum. It depends on the previous decisions of the Fed, which in turn depends on the previous performance of the skaters, and so on. It is a tight rope that has to consider totality of circumstances.

 

[NanaPat]

I'm sorry I started the Jason vs Adam discussion. I agree with the choice of Adam over Jason, and I haven't heard anyone argue otherwise. But Jason did have the tangerine (worlds last year) that Adam didn't have. And some people really like tangerines.

Basically the selection is done like things were in the 6.0 system (look at the bags a fruit / BOWs and decide in some sort of holistic way which one looks better). I like the IJS system better, but that's me.

 

[Blades of Passion]

You also seem to have forgotten that it was Jason, not Adam, who was expected to make the 2016 GPF outright; the reason he didn’t - the reason Adam got in - was that Jason competed at NHK with a stress fracture.

Adam didn't only get in because of that. He skated well at Skate America and then did amazingly at Grand Prix France and should have placed 2nd there. Even if Jason hadn't been injured for NHK, there's no guarantee he would have skated well enough to make the GPF, he's never actually skated great at two Grand Prix events in one season. Both last season and this season, Adam for sure had better overall Grand Prix showings than what Jason has ever accomplished.

And yes I agree Jason at his best is better than Adam at his best, but Jason hasn't been able to deliver his best for quite some time now, whereas Adam did deliver his best at NHK this season and has been better at every single competition this season.

I'm sorry I started the Jason vs Adam discussion.

Yes, let's please get back to talking about why Ross Miner was robbed and should be going to the Olympics!!

 

[Jaana]

To qualify for GPF the first tier is the number of total points based on placements in GP-events. In US Nationals it would mean the placement there as the first tier.

The second GPF-tiers are the combined scores from GP-events. I think USFSA should use something similar = placements and scores at all fall events and not look at the BOW so far back, because that will not tell much of the skater´s present condition. The present condition should have much more meaning more than something you did six months or much, much longer ago, IMO.

 

[lurkz2]

Perhaps. I wonder if there was an urgency in naming someone now though. I would imagine they might not want to leave it until the last minute.

It begs the question though. The Winter Olympics starts 2 weeks from 4CC. Would USFS ask the alternates (which is the 4CC team) to stick in Asia for two weeks?

I remember reading that, for pairs, the first alternate would stay to train in Asia in case they're needed for the Olympics.

 

[Skater Boy]

Umm. Did Jason run over your puppy, or what?

The 2016 Grand Prix was not part of the body of work criteria for the Olympics, but for the record, the judges did not agree with you; Jason beat Adam at both Skate America and Salt Lake City. I also disagree with you: I was at Skate America, and in my opinion, Jason was by far the better skater and more charismatic performer. If you haven’t already done so, you might try comparing one foot skating in their SA free skates.

You also seem to have forgotten that it was Jason, not Adam, who was expected to make the 2016 GPF outright; the reason he didn’t - the reason Adam got in - was that Jason competed at NHK with a stress fracture.

Then of course there was Worlds, which you seem to keep forgetting was part of this year’s selection criteria. Jason’s performances there were brilliant and his scores reflected that. And of course, with Nathan struggling, Jason’s 7th place finish was instrumental in getting back those three spots.

Even this season, despite his struggles, he has higher short program scores. And incidentally he finished 0.52 points behind Adam at the GPF.

I think looking at the criteria a lot of discussion about the 2016 year isn't worth much. Besides it was clear Adam earned his spot over Jason this year based on Nats, Grand Prix events and the Grand Prix final plus in all the head to head battles Adam won this year. Moot point the USFSA has made its decisions.

 

[labgoat]

Perhaps. I wonder if there was an urgency in naming someone now though. I would imagine they might not want to leave it until the last minute.

It begs the question though. The Winter Olympics starts 2 weeks from 4CC. Would USFS ask the alternates (which is the 4CC team) to stick in Asia for two weeks?

Olympics may have security issues that require athlete vetting, Olympic wear had to be fitted & sewn for the athletes, publicity and athlete guides need to be produced...

 

[labgoat]

Oddly, Olympics judging can sometimes be more lenient than the worlds.

I tend to agree. Often the years leading up to the Olympics are judged strictly to encourage the athletes to clean up their acts so that the Olympic final produces good performances. Judging is often more lenient during the event in the spirit of goodwill and seeking a generally controversy free event.

 

[MiRé]

I tend to agree. Often the years leading up to the Olympics are judged strictly to encourage the athletes to clean up their acts so that the Olympic final produces good performances. Judging is often more lenient during the event in the spirit of goodwill and seeking a generally controversy free event.

Except lenient judging is not always consistent thus actually creating controversies.....and IMO, judging should be equal no matter what event you're in. That's the integrity of any sport. You can't be inconsistent and lenient just to satisfy the public. That's not a sport. That's a circus show

 

[gstrain]

I don't think the entire selection process is based on BOW. I do think nationals did make a difference for some, like Vincent Zhou. I think had he finished 4th with subpar skates, I'm not sure he would have kicked Ross out on the team. But it did seem that Nationals meant different things to different folks as far as the selection committee is concerned.

When referring to the entire selection process being based on BOW, my point was that Nationals is no longer really "special" and instead is just another Tier 1 event towards the each skater's BOW. So it can still make a difference since it is part of the BOW, but it isn't really special like it has been historically.

Regarding your second question: You mean someone who medaled who went through the qualified via regionals/sectionals?

Yes, by "qualifier" I meant someone that qualified via regionals/sectionals as opposed to with a bye. Clearly all nationals competitors qualified through one process or another so just saying "qualifier" was not very clear.

USFS needs to be the ones to be proactive in ensuring that stakeholders understand the process and to explain what the National Championship means in the future. For about 75 percent of the skaters it the culmination of the season, so the concept of taking nationals at face value already makes sense to those folks.

But for that 25 percent who are elite and compete internationally, it's much harder to uncouple nationals with the team selection process. USFS needs to find a way to uncouple the two (if they want to do more BOW stuff) and make sure to explain the change throughly

One thought I had around "separating" the team selections from Nationals would be if they want to go this direction and make it clearer that Nationals are just one data point in the selection process, they might want to not announce the team selection during Nationals and intertwine the team selection process and results with the Sunday exhibition event. Maybe wait a week before announcing the teams. However from a marketing perspective that's probably not great as by then the public focus has moved elsewhere.

On the outside, the committee went with straight Nationals results on the other three disciplines, so it does make it look like that they did some crazy thing with the men. But really BOW didn't need to be a factor because the people who were on the podium also had the BOW. The top three dance teams have been on the GPF three years in a row and two of the three are world medalists. Bradie Tennell, the national champ, had the highest score internationally and Mirai had the second highest score.

I think most of the time the selections are still going to be closely aligned with Nationals results since the best skaters are usually going to do the best at Nationals. It's just this year the men's selections were rather jarring and clearly showed how the selection process has been moving in a different direction.

 

[Andrea82]

Perhaps. I wonder if there was an urgency in naming someone now though. I would imagine they might not want to leave it until the last minute.

It begs the question though. The Winter Olympics starts 2 weeks from 4CC. Would USFS ask the alternates (which is the 4CC team) to stick in Asia for two weeks?

Lynn Rutherford‏ tweeted that Auxier said that Kayne/O'Shea will "remain in that part of the world to train & stay acclimated, in the event they are needed as Olympic team alternates".

I think they are the ones asked to be stay in Asia because there is no other Pair and therefore if something happens to K/K, they absolutely need someone for the Team Event.

 

[fenway3]

I think that is why there is a vote, not a score comparison. From what I have heard from the interview the vote was 11-1.

Do they ever reveal the exact names behind the votes? Or is this stuff all "sekret"?