They most definitely did not have to pick Jason for anything. Had they weighed nationals more they could have easily have said 4th + BOW is enough to make changes for one (its only one step off the podium after all) but 6th + BOW is not for another (not even close to a medal). There is a big enough difference between 4th and 6th to justify different treatment . It wouldn't be that hard to justify makes big changes for Adam and none for Jason especially when comparing the two BOW wise their neck and neck and neither is superior to the other :confused2:
2018 US Men's Oly/World/4CC team announced
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They most definitely did not have to pick Jason for anything. Had they weighed nationals more they could have easily have said 4th + BOW is enough to make changes for one (its only one step off the podium after all) but 6th + BOW is not for another (not even close to a medal). There is a big enough difference between 4th and 6th to justify different treatment . It wouldn't be that hard to justify makes big changes for Adam and none for Jason especially when comparing the two BOW wise their neck and neck and neither is superior to the other :confused2:
The other thing that rubs me the wrong way is we teach our young skaters and their coaches that to advance in qualifying, it’s the top 4 at Regionals that advance to Sectionals, and the top 4 at Sectionals that advance to Nationals. Deliver at the competition that day, or wait another year. It's an open, transparent, fair system, and if you're good enough and want to prove it, anybody can walk in off the street (pass your senior free skate test), go through qualifying, finish in the top 4 each time, beat everyone at Nationals and become the US champion. And get left off the national team.
I think this speaks to how instilled the idea of Nationals as a qualifying competition is to skaters, parents and coaches. And this is why I feel like USFS threaded far too lightly in putting more body of work into the team selection process.
If they want to factor BOW, Nationals needs to be seen as a separate competition, with its own merits and awards For one a lot of the top skaters haven't gone through the qualifying process in some time. Half the competitors have byes.
But if you want to do that you have to make a concerted effort to let people know why this change is happening.
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Yes, but this is just how you feel about it - and to be honest how I feel about it - but clearly USFS felt otherwise because that’s how they chose to weigh the criteria. They didn’t have to give Adam anything either and had they weighed nationals more they could have easily sent Ross but alas, they chose not to.
I agree, and of course my post above was a dramatized version of the "American dream." The reality is of course that nobody is walking in off the street and winning Nationals, and like you said, nobody that didn't get a bye to Nationals is probably even medaling. That said I do think that making the entire selection process based on BOW is hard to reconcile with what we teach kids, parents and coaches in the sport.
I am curious when was the last time a senior qualifier medaled at nationals in each discipline? Also, when was the last time a senior qualifier won at nationals in each discipline?
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Ugh I’ve posted so many times in so many places that I may be repeating myself here.
But it seems to me that if USFS had wanted to ensure that Nationals was weighted far more strongly than any other event, they could have easily done so:
Tier 1: 2018 US Nationals
Tier 2: 2017 Worlds, 2017 GPF
Etc.
That they didn’t suggests that’s not how they’re thinking any longer. (TBF I suppose it could also mean they’re sloppy or confused
)
It seems to be hard for people who’ve grown up with the idea that Nationals is the de facto Olympic qualifier to accept the change. But I think if this selection process (hopefully tweaked and clarified) sticks around, it’ll be far easier for skaters and fans to accept in the future.
But it seems to me that if USFS had wanted to ensure that Nationals was weighted far more strongly than any other event, they could have easily done so:
Tier 1: 2018 US Nationals
Tier 2: 2017 Worlds, 2017 GPF
Etc.
That they didn’t suggests that’s not how they’re thinking any longer. (TBF I suppose it could also mean they’re sloppy or confused
)It seems to be hard for people who’ve grown up with the idea that Nationals is the de facto Olympic qualifier to accept the change. But I think if this selection process (hopefully tweaked and clarified) sticks around, it’ll be far easier for skaters and fans to accept in the future.
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Tara Lipinski and Mirai Nagasu medaled at their first senior Nationals, but I don't know if they qualified through sectionals/regionals or got there through byes based on junior events.
I don't think the entire selection process is based on BOW. I do think nationals did make a difference for some, like Vincent Zhou. I think had he finished 4th with subpar skates, I'm not sure he would have kicked Ross out on the team. But it did seem that Nationals meant different things to different folks as far as the selection committee is concerned.
Regarding your second question: You mean someone who medaled who went through the qualified via regionals/sectionals?
Ugh I’ve posted so many times in so many places that I may be repeating myself here.
But it seems to me that if USFS had wanted to ensure that Nationals was weighted far more strongly than any other event, they could have easily done so:
Tier 1: 2018 US Nationals
Tier 2: 2017 Worlds, 2017 GPF
Etc.
That they didn’t suggests that’s not how they’re thinking any longer. (TBF I suppose it could also mean they’re sloppy or confused
It seems to be hard for people who’ve grown up with the idea that Nationals is the de facto Olympic qualifier to accept the change. But I think if this selection process (hopefully tweaked and clarified) sticks around, it’ll be far easier for skaters and fans to accept in the future.
USFS needs to be the ones to be proactive in ensuring that stakeholders understand the process and to explain what the National Championship means in the future. For about 75 percent of the skaters it the culmination of the season, so the concept of taking nationals at face value already makes sense to those folks.
But for that 25 percent who are elite and compete internationally, it's much harder to uncouple nationals with the team selection process. USFS needs to find a way to uncouple the two (if they want to do more BOW stuff) and make sure to explain the change throughly
On the outside, the committee went with straight Nationals results on the other three disciplines, so it does make it look like that they did some crazy thing with the men. But really BOW didn't need to be a factor because the people who were on the podium also had the BOW. The top three dance teams have been on the GPF three years in a row and two of the three are world medalists. Bradie Tennell, the national champ, had the highest score internationally and Mirai had the second highest score.
I feel nationals was the most cruical for Karen Chen and Vincent Zhou. Had they underperformed at Nationals, I think they would have not been chosen.
My husband pointed out one thing regarding Jason: Jason historically has done well later in the season and he has world and Olympic experience. Given that alternates are usually called up at the last minute, Mr. P pointed out that the committee felt more comfortable having someone who can be counted on in a pinch. Yes, the messy FS is fresh in everyone's minds, but they also remember the Jason who basically showed up to Nationals last year having to wear a leg cast in between-practices, basically managed to medal (2017 U.S. Nationals is one Tier criteria, tier 3, I think) and basically worked to be ready for Worlds, where he and Nathan together got the U.S.three spots. That coupled with Ross' struggles in past ISU championship outings (2012 4CC being the notable exception) may have contributed to the alternate decisions.
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Max Aaron qualified for 2013 Nats by winning Midwestern Sectionals.
And then won the gold medal at 2013 Nats.
(I am pretty sure that he is the most recent example among all disciplines? But not 100% sure.)
(BTW, Ross
was the silver medalist at 2013 Nats. And he was extremely supportive 
to his friend Max, who had never expected to win Nats that year.)
I'm having a hard time understanding the people who say that Nationals don't count for anything, that they're meaningless.
Well, what is the point during non-Olympic years then?
And if they didn't count at all would Ross even be an alternate?
What about all the lower level events that occur at Nationals? Are they just pointless?
Well, what is the point during non-Olympic years then?
And if they didn't count at all would Ross even be an alternate?
What about all the lower level events that occur at Nationals? Are they just pointless?
I agree that compared to last fall, let's say, Jason's BOW has not been as strong, but despite his up and down season, he managed to score 83-90 in the SP, 160-176 in the FS and in the 245-261 overall. That's a huge range, but it's still higher than Ross's range, which was 69-71 in the SP, 148-162 in the FS and 219-233 overall.
Ross did beat Jason by more than 20 points at Nationals, but Jason's range of scores internationally, on average , is 16 points higher in the SP, 16 points in the FS and 21 points overall.
And when you look at season's best/worst score -- Jason's worst (245.95) is some 25 points higher than Ross's worst score this season (219.62) and 28 points higher (261.14) than Ross' best (233.72).
And even with Vincent, who didn't have the greatest fall there's a big gap between him and Ross as well. Perhaps it's smaller but we're still talking a season's best score difference of 22 points.
And it's worth noting that leading up to nationals Ross had the lowest TES in the SP out of ALL the men in the competing for Team USA, and that includes JGP skaters competing as seniors.
Looking it that way I can see the complexity of the decision they had to make. All that said, I feel like they could have given first alternate to Ross at Olympics. The team event will either be all Nathan or likely Nathan and Adam, so Ross wasn't going to be needed for that at the last minute. Jason's first alternate for worlds seems reasonable.
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Yes, c'mon. Just look at Bradie Tennell.
Perhaps. I wonder if there was an urgency in naming someone now though. I would imagine they might not want to leave it until the last minute.
It begs the question though. The Winter Olympics starts 2 weeks from 4CC. Would USFS ask the alternates (which is the 4CC team) to stick in Asia for two weeks?
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Jason hasn't done anything to merit consideration over Adam. "Body of Work" is not supposed to mean checkmarks, it's supposed to be about assessing an athlete's peak abilities, looking beyond just one Nationals to see if there other times the athlete has delivered better. Last season on the Grand Prix, Adam gave a better performance than anything Jason did during that whole season. Adam got injured and couldn't compete the rest of the season or else he likely would have bumped Jason from the World team (and also finished 7th at Worlds, securing the 3 spots for the Men). Then this season Adam outdid Jason at literally every event.
Well it doesn't matter really -- I don't think anyone thinks Jason should have gotten the Olympic spot over Adam. It's all water under the bridge.
I disagree with your assessment of last season. Jason did beat Adam at their two head to head match-ups: U.S. Classic and Skate America -- he basically bombed NHK Trophy, but we all later found out that it was related to his injury. But that doesn't matter either cause BOW didn't count anything from that fall.
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Umm. Did Jason run over your puppy, or what?
The 2016 Grand Prix was not part of the body of work criteria for the Olympics, but for the record, the judges did not agree with you; Jason beat Adam at both Skate America and Salt Lake City. I also disagree with you: I was at Skate America, and in my opinion, Jason was by far the better skater and more charismatic performer. If you haven’t already done so, you might try comparing one foot skating in their SA free skates.
You also seem to have forgotten that it was Jason, not Adam, who was expected to make the 2016 GPF outright; the reason he didn’t - the reason Adam got in - was that Jason competed at NHK with a stress fracture.
Then of course there was Worlds, which you seem to keep forgetting was part of this year’s selection criteria. Jason’s performances there were brilliant and his scores reflected that. And of course, with Nathan struggling, Jason’s 7th place finish was instrumental in getting back those three spots.
Even this season, despite his struggles, he has higher short program scores. And incidentally he finished 0.52 points behind Adam at the GPF.
My point was that the selections are being explained with check marks, when it should be some sort of weighted numbers. But no one is telling us what those numbers are. I don't think they exist. They're just looking at a bunch of things and saying 3 apples and 4 oranges vs 4 apples, 2 oranges, and a tangerine. Oh yes, the first bag of fruit is better (unless you really like tangerines, or the colour of the second bag).
FWIW, I think BoP does like Jason actually.
In fact, I think BOP put Jason's FS as his top performance of Skate Canada by a lot! Here it is: https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/s...Skate-Canada&p=1826609&viewfull=1#post1826609
I think he's just making a case why Jason shouldn't get the Olympic spot over Adam, which is all a moot to me cause I don't think anyone is actually arguing for that, especially since Jason finished 6th.
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