2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Edwin]

ISU should take a leaf out of FIG’s book on how to destroy the sport you govern.

Reduce the number of athletes per federation to prevent disencouraging podium sweeps under the pretext of promoting the sport over the rest of the world. Invite only commercially interesting competitors to the live finals.
The others are thanked for their efforts in secret qualifiers that take place out of view of the media and even interested fans.

Raise the minimum age while at the time provide on open ended scoring system to ensure longevity and continuous challenge of the athletes.
Advocate the suicidal chucking of skills for spectacle and entertainment.

Micro manage that scoring system to such an extent every season so that nobody understands the current rules, least of all the casual fan and majority of spectators. Give TV commentators no clue either, as long as they babble over the routines.

Create a show out of every major competition, complete with ‘Oscar’ and ‘Grammy’ like ceremonies to please the sponsors and commercial media.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Chances of Alina landing every quad next season is bigger than her ever landing 3A.

Considering that She rulet out going for 'cheap' quads like 4Toe or 4S, She will probably go for 4Lz or 4F maybe even 4Lo.

Regarding to beating 3A consistently... at this point, skaters who can consistently beat 3A can be counted using fingers of a single hand and most of them will have problems against Peak Trusova so I doubt Alina sets her expection that high

lol, are the quad toe and quad sal really considered “cheap quads” in Russia??

I’d really like to see Alina come back, but I don’t think she’ll get a quad. Isn’t her motivation lacking? She said she wanted to quit many times before.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

ISU should take a leaf out of FIG’s book on how to destroy the sport you govern.

Reduce the number of athletes per federation to prevent disencouraging podium sweeps under the pretext of promoting the sport over the rest of the world. Invite only commercially interesting competitors to the live finals.
The others are thanked for their efforts in secret qualifiers.

Raise the minimum age while at the time provide on open ended scoring system to ensure longevity and continuous challenge of the athletes.
Advocate the suicidal chucking of skills for spectacle and entertainment.

Micro manage that scoring system to such an extent every season so that nobody understands the current rules, least of all the casual fan and majority of spectators. Give TV commentators no clue either, as long as they babble over the routines.

Create a show out of every major competition, complete with ‘Oscar’ and ‘Grammy’ like ceremonies to please the sponsors and commercial media.

Are you talking about rhythmic gymnastics or regular gymnastics? Because rhythmic gymnastics’ scoring system I don’t understand at all.

 

[Edwin]

Are you talking about rhythmic gymnastics or regular gymnastics? Because rhythmic gymnastics’ scoring system I don’t understand at all.

Rhythmic gymnastics is so Russia dominated it runs the risk of being eliminated from the Olympic Games.

I applied some hyperbole in my posting on ISU vs FIG ;-), but FIG is in the same situation. FIG also wants to promote its gymnastics disciplines to the developing world, increasing reach and participation, gender equality and healthy life styles, which are all laudable goals by themselves.

Continental and World Championships took too long for commercial TV and FIG are seemingly incompetent in monetizing their sport using paywalled digital channels to a willing and financially capable audience. So we get hardly any coverage at all, since unused broadcasting rights prevail over the genuine interest of parents and fans of the sport.
First compulsories were dropped to the detriment of basic gymnastics skills and beauty of the sport. Later, numbers of participants have been reduced, but qualifying rounds still take too long. Drop Team Event, All Around or Apparatus Finals? Combine events? Drop one apparatus, every year/every cycle? Dominant federations have completely different ideas from the mainstream who will never have a real shot at the medals, while developing federations probably have no clue at all.

FIG constantly messes with the competition formats, rules, qualification criteria and procedures.
While gymnastics itself hasn’t really improved despite all the FIG's efforts at micro management the Code of Points. Judging hasn’t become any better or easier either, nor more transparent and understandable for the audience.

With 2020 Tokyo Summer Olympics postponed for a year, a whole new cohort of 15 year olds suddenly became eligible for 2021. The current 15 year olds might find themselves displaced, let alone the older team members. But what is there to do, rule out a whole year or birth or two from their only chance of entering the annals of Mt Olympus?

The same might happen if ISU changes minimum age under political pressure from certain federations before 2022, just to curb the "Russian Revolution”.

Although there would be no such urgent need if CAS doesn’t overrule WADA’s recommendations or advises IOC on a blanket ban.

Hyperbole off

 

[flanker]

Children have right to be protected from their own desires, the consequences of which they cannot foresee. It's their parents, teachers and coaches role to provide safe environment they can develop their wants.

Certainly not by self-proclaimed do-gooders with zero authority, relevance or knowledge, yet with mouth full of good intentions. That's what the parents are for.

Grandmas only? Don't think so. Sarcasm apart, kids should be stopped, not encouraged to do anything that is dangerous to their physical and mental health.

And miss Kiira, I admit. And that's what they call a happy childhood, I bet. No going outside, no sport, no activity. Just soft cage. Or couch

Always reminds me good old Pratchett

"You can't give her that!" she screamed. "It's not safe!"
IT'S A SWORD, said the Hogfather. THEY'RE NOT MEANT TO BE SAFE.
"She's a child!" shouted Crumley.
IT'S EDUCATIONAL.
"What if she cuts herself?"
THAT WILL BE AN IMPORTANT LESSON.
― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

https://i.imgur.com/r2fW2o7.jpg

I was talking once with a colleague, who is a former skater successful on a junior level and now is a coach, about Stephen Gogolev learning quads (when Gogo was 11 so it was in the time no Russian lady presented quads, at least internationally). He said it was irresponsible to introduce such a difficult element to a kid because of medical reason and that according to his best knowledge it would influence the kid's bone structure resulting in problems with growth and bone density and, in the long run, developmental disorders of the musculoskeletal system and overuse injuries. That's why kids shouldn't be taught quads till they were at least 15. And the colleague is in his fourties now so he's definitely not a granddad .

Everybody has a "colleague" supposedly presenting his own ideas giving them somehow higher credibility. So far I haven't seen anything relevant that would show us that in the world where kids play ice hockey, football, train martial arts etc. (still, I hope not just temporalily, because some good soul would decide it's too dangerous) precisely the quad jumps in figure skating represent somehow greater than acceptable danger than all the other activities.

 

[KOBOT37]

lol, are the quad toe and quad sal really considered “cheap quads” in Russia??

Quad Toe gives skater 9.50 points (for example, triple axel is 8 points worth) and Quad Salchow-9.7
Quad Loop is worth 10.50, Quad Flip is worth 11 and Quad Lutz is worth 11.5 2 points more than Quad Toeloop. So yeah, they are cheap

Alina, if she returns, will highly likely go for Quad Flip and if It works, probably will try to add Quad Lutz Like Anna did this year but reversed.

 

[Edwin]

And Alina can, for she is with the best collective of trainers, surrounded by the best skaters in the world.

She only needs to apply herself.
But that, of course, is easy for us to say.

Motivation is the key, and with Alina being a young adult now, this has to come from within, by her own desire.

She has tasted a sample of life outside the competitive ice, will she be sated or will she want to taste more? I doubt FFKKR or Tutberidze will put pressure on her, for there is a new generation on the ice, and the next generation is already waiting behind the boards.

Alina has to decide for herself.

 

[KOBOT37]

I don't think Quads being dangerous for kids is even matter worth discussing.

Until after kids are banned from practicing Boxing, Rugby, wrestling, MMA, Judo, Hockey, skiing, snowboarding and many other sports which are much more dangerous to health than jumping quads.

 

[flanker]

lol, are the quad toe and quad sal really considered “cheap quads” in Russia??

I’d really like to see Alina come back, but I don’t think she’ll get a quad. Isn’t her motivation lacking? She said she wanted to quit many times before.

Yeah, because her motivation is lacking she's training a quad. On a question misleading the similar way as your comment she explained the only time when she really wanted to quit was when she was little girl and it lasted very short time. I don't know how many times you people need to be reminded her words "I'm not quitting."

 

[Tolstoj]

Chances of Alina landing every quad next season is bigger than her ever landing 3A.

Considering that She rulet out going for 'cheap' quads like 4Toe or 4S, She will probably go for 4Lz or 4F maybe even 4Lo.

Regarding to beating 3A consistently... at this point, skaters who can consistently beat 3A can be counted using fingers of a single hand and most of them will have problems against Peak Trusova so I doubt Alina sets her expection that high

Well i'd add Kihira there too honestly.

Between this season and last they faced each other 4 times (2018 GPF, 2019 Worlds, 2019 NHK Trophy and 2019 GPF) and Alina beated the japanese only once at Worlds.

Without quads and 3a it's hard to expect to win every competition even with the highest components of the field, I think expectations should be in check on what it is possible to win and what isn't.

As for the quads if i was her i'd go with the toe, it seems the most reasonable, who cares that is cheap, you're Olympic Champion, chances are if you skate clean you'll get the mark, she doesn't need the most difficult program content.

 

[Good Vibes Only]

Well i'd add Kihira there too honestly.

Between this season and last they faced each other 4 times (2018 GPF, 2019 Worlds, 2019 NHK Trophy and 2019 GPF) and Alina beated the japanese only once at Worlds.

Without quads and 3a it's hard to expect to win every competition even with the highest components of the field, I think expectations should be in check on what it is possible to win and what isn't.

As for the quads if i was her i'd go with the toe, it seems the most reasonable, who cares that is cheap, you're Olympic Champion, chances are if you skate clean you'll get the mark, she doesn't need the most difficult program content.

Well it’s not that the quad toe and salchow are “cheap” jumps. She is/was training quad flip because that is one of the triples that she is the most comfortable with/has the best technique on, along with the lutz and the loop. You can see this with Anna. She jumps quad lutz and quad flip because she is the most comfortable with them and gets the best height on them. For Sasha all of her triples are strong which is why she is so versatile with the quads.

 

[Edwin]

As for the quads if i was her i'd go with the toe, it seems the most reasonable, who cares that is cheap, you're Olympic Champion, chances are if you skate clean you'll get the mark, she doesn't need the most difficult program content.

Hopefully not, it is about time skating runs are rated as they are performed, without any name, reputation, longevity, federation bonuses. Alina should be no exception.

 

[Fried]

Certainly not by self-proclaimed do-gooders with zero authority, relevance or knowledge, yet with mouth full of good intentions. That's what the parents are for.

And miss Kiira, I admit. And that's what they call a happy childhood, I bet. No going outside, no sport, no activity. Just soft cage. Or couch

I'm sorry, but sometimes the ignorance and willful distortion of what someone else said becomes almost unbearable. A less arrogant discussion would make more sense.
Just my 2cents

 

[plushyfan]

Grandmas only? Don't think so. Sarcasm apart, kids should be stopped, not encouraged to do anything that is dangerous to their physical and mental health.

I was talking once with a colleague, who is a former skater successful on a junior level and now is a coach, about Stephen Gogolev learning quads (when Gogo was 11 so it was in the time no Russian lady presented quads, at least internationally). He said it was irresponsible to introduce such a difficult element to a kid because of medical reason and that according to his best knowledge it would influence the kid's bone structure resulting in problems with growth and bone density and, in the long run, developmental disorders of the musculoskeletal system and overuse injuries. That's why kids shouldn't be taught quads till they were at least 15. And the colleague is in his fourties now so he's definitely not a granddad .

I believe it depends on the kids. They don't have same body, bones, muscles, etc. I also believe the coaches, team doctors can see it, can judge whether it is allowed or not to learn quads or not for each kids. You don't forget Plushenko was 15 he won silver on ECH and bronze on WCH in his first senior season with 4T-3T. Sure he started to learn quad some years before.

 

[JazzUp]

A less arrogant discussion would make more sense.

Less arrogant sermons from grandmas and their supporters would make even more.

 

[flanker]

I'm sorry, but sometimes the ignorance and willful distortion of what someone else said becomes almost unbearable. A less arrogant discussion would make more sense.
Just my 2cents

For me the biggest arrogance is when amateurs and people with just lack of knowledge are constantly poking a nose into others affairs with the attitude "the right is on my side". Like giving advices how to raise your kids or how to train them in sport. Nobody asked for it, least of all those who are truly relevant, professional coaches, parents, children themselves. The fact that not Stephen Gogolev nor any other western skater, boy or girl, but the russian girls raised such public discussion (possible sporadic voices before are nothing equal to the discussions we have now) also gives me too strong doubts about "good intentions" of many members of the vanguard of this movement.

 

[Fluture]

Less arrogant sermons from grandmas and their supporters would make even more.

I have read the discussion but would only like to say this: calling people who hold a different opinion as yours “grandmas“ is not only a sign of arrogance but of childishness. And it will never lead to any fruitful discussion.

 

[Amei]

Well i'd add Kihira there too honestly.

Between this season and last they faced each other 4 times (2018 GPF, 2019 Worlds, 2019 NHK Trophy and 2019 GPF) and Alina beated the japanese only once at Worlds.

Without quads and 3a it's hard to expect to win every competition even with the highest components of the field, I think expectations should be in check on what it is possible to win and what isn't.

As for the quads if i was her i'd go with the toe, it seems the most reasonable, who cares that is cheap, you're Olympic Champion, chances are if you skate clean you'll get the mark, she doesn't need the most difficult program content.

Everything is relative to what a skater's ambition is, but from what we know Zagitova and all the other skaters want to go to the Olympics in 2 years as of right now it's not looking good for a skater to make it out of Russia onto a European/Worlds/Olympics team without either a triple axel or a quad.

And I don't know if she should really be banking on a PCS advantage - her PCS advantage over Kostornaia was minimal all season and Shcherbakova wasn't too far behind and that was in their freshman season.

Hopefully not, it is about time skating runs are rated as they are performed, without any name, reputation, longevity, federation bonuses. Alina should be no exception.

Wishful thinking, reputation scoring has always been in figure skating it's survived scoring system changes and scandals; likely the only way to do away with reputation scoring is to not have any scoring, disband the ISU and move everyone strictly to show skating.

 

[beachmouse]

Nobody blinked an eye when the emotionally, psychologically, physically and even sexually abusive USAG coaches and staff like the Karoly's, Nunno, Geddert, Nassar et al brought the USA the most coveted Gold medals in the Summer Olympics. On the contrary, it led to a whole generation of mad gym mums exploiting their own children in the race towards glory and $$$$, as still evidenced today in their daily IG updates.

While no one knew what was going on with Nassar for so long, there were a good number of American gymnastics fans during that time who preferred the Russians and Romanians because their talent pool wasn't as deep and they actually had to nurture the careers of their top talent longer. Unlike the Karolyis, who knew they could just toss a girl out like a used tissue after a year because there was always another girl in the pipeline to take her place. (There's also the awesomeness that is Aliya Mustsfina, who, well how can you not respect her ability to stay so good for so long and get back to elite form after pregnancy?)

 

[Mawwerg]

While no one knew what was going on with Nassar for so long, there were a good number of American gymnastics fans during that time who preferred the Russians and Romanians because their talent pool wasn't as deep and they actually had to nurture the careers of their top talent longer. Unlike the Karolyis, who knew they could just toss a girl out like a used tissue after a year because there was always another girl in the pipeline to take her place. (There's also the awesomeness that is Aliya Mustsfina, who, well how can you not respect her ability to stay so good for so long and get back to elite form after pregnancy?)

I think tossing girls wasn't Karolyis dream. It's just how international sports system works. It approves and sometimes actually demands such behaviour.