2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Vandevska]

In some interviews from the fed, if i am not mistaken, rusfed folks mentioned that Med kept making mistakes, and that led the team to change the program.
They also mentioned that Zhenya was overtraining it, because she kept trying to skate it clean.

Looking at the change, if Zhenya could do the 6/1 they would have kept it, because i mean, why make it easier. They could totally have made AK 6/1 too, but they still reverted to her old layout. There must have been a reason for that, and i am pretty sure that it wasnt "holding Zhenya back on purpose on the Olympic season".

I actually also feel that the 6/1 program kind of lead to her stress fracture - harder content, more mistakes. We know how competitive and perfectionist Zhenya is, so it is not implausible that she would keep insisting on skating it as many times as possible to skate it clean finally.

I have not seen any of these interviews so can you maybe try to find some?
Because I remember ET saying they changed it after Nepela because she wanted Anna Karenina more.
Also, I think it's kinda mean to say that she couldn't have pulled it off because we saw that program twice, with the second time being in Nepela where the "uncharacteristic mistakes" were a turnaround from the lutz and that's about it. I don't understand why people think that's the end of the world. Alina was making mistakes in the sp that season too but since Russian nationals she kept nailing it. It's a learning curve.

As for Alina's programs this year, they simply don't compare with last year's ones. Especially the SP, that's my favourite SP ever to this date.

 

[Jontor]

How bad is the injury? Dasha can still skate juniors if she gets fit. Who has her now? CSKA?

I didn't know Panenkova was injured! What happened?

 

[Lunalovesskating]

Polina has anounced retirement..

https://mobile.twitter.com/InTheLoPodcast/status/1134325773362270209
So sad. Such a promising skater.

so sad. She was such a good skater

 

[rollerblade]

I love Nastyas Romeo and Juliet. It was wonderful. I hope she gets more good music to work with this year she needs it. I liked Alenas Romeo and Juliet as well. I like them both about the same and think they're great girls.. They are such beautiful skaters and girls. I can't say who did it better. I may go to Youtube and watch both girls Romeo and Juliet free skates to make a final determination. And I will make a final determination and try not to be influenced by Alena at this point being the more accomplished and better skater. Because she's better at this point doesn't mean Alena skated Romeo and Juliet better.

Add Marin Honda's version (from 2017 Jr Worlds) to your list of R&J. All 3 are great imo, and different enough in composition and music cuts to not be a copycat of each other.

 

[Jontor]

Polina has anounced retirement..

https://mobile.twitter.com/InTheLoPodcast/status/1134325773362270209
So sad. Such a promising skater.

This was surprising. I was expecting a great comeback from her next season...

 

[Mathman]

Actually, at the beginning of the season, Alina had already said she always wanted to skate Carmen long before this season. You can view her interview during Nebelhorn Trophy. No need to demonize her team. I don’t like Denil’s choreography either. He definitely need improve his skills. But I have to say, Alina is an independent person, not a doll.

Thanks for joining us, Vnana. Post often, post long!

As for Carmen, every skater wants to skate to this music. There is just something about the cadences of the music that cries out for the type of movement that figure skating brings. Plus, the character is so well defined. :yes:

To me, it is the music itself that draws choreographers to think, "I can really do something with this music! Why would anyone want to skate to anything else?"

 

[andromache]

Polina has anounced retirement..

https://mobile.twitter.com/InTheLoPodcast/status/1134325773362270209
So sad. Such a promising skater.

Oh no. Such a waste of talent.

In another country with more individualized attention from a coach, she could’ve become a star. I’m so sad. She’s been one of my favorites. Though unfortunately this isn’t a huge surprise.

 

[SkySkater]

It's not really clear what's going on with Dasha. She did a try out at CSKA with Davydov but doesn't seem to be there anymore and whilst I think she is still with Tsareva she won't stay there (she's only there because Sambo wouldn't release her funding so she couldn't leave the club) I think I've seen stuff about her wanting to move to St Petes and I think that Turenko if she stays in singles could be a good fit or even Mishin if he'd take her because she has good high jumps with okay tech on them and a nice axel that she said she was trying a triple on at one point--this is only if she could get healthy tho. Alternatively she's mentioned the possibility of going into pairs which again would probably rely on her moving to St Petes other than Mozer the best schools are there--again if she could make this work it could be very good for her because she's very small height wise and at least the Velikov and Moskvina teams don't overly pressurise skaters to be skinny and her fast rotation and strong jumps would transfer across to the twist and throws and if they were speedy she could probably get one year in juniors if she spends the next year training but this is a long shot.

In regards to her injury it is quite unclear. She had a stress fracture that she was skating on during the jgps and jgpf because she had to get the seasons best which deteriated sharply afterwards--she missed out on elder age 2017-8 becuase she couldn't make it out of the qualifiers so presumably she was forced to take a step back/it had gotten seriously worse to lead to this decrease in performance by late Jan/Early Feb. Then she left Eteri for some unexplained and then she's with Tsareva at which point the same leg seems to be injured again raising the question of did it ever get better as it has been taped up all season as well as her changing bootsboots frequently and now/. As it seems to have become relatively chronic--same injury which has either not healed/flares up it doesn't make her that appealing to coaches and especially without funding this year due to limited results I think she'll struggle to find a new coach--much as I dislike him for his conduct with Nastya and even Sima a possibility in Moscow could be Angels of Plushenko as they have scholarships which can fully fund training and won't require her to move. Regardless I just want her to be happy and to hopefully see her skate because she's a really nice skater when she's on and she really deserves something in skating to work out if that is what she wants.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Doing all jumps in the second half IS hard... other elements also require stamina and power but jumps are the most taxing on the legs and if you do all jumps on the second half, you've already used up some of your energy and you almost have no time in between jumps to recover.

One reason I admire Alina as an athlete is because she has so much stamina, endurance and power in her skating that she has been able to succesfully do a fully backloaded program with difficult transitions, jump entries/exits and some of the hardest jump combinations, and even now that backloading is not allowed, she still had programs with some of the most difficult technical content that we've seen so far.

Even when she struggles, she doesn't just settle for programs that could be easier for her. That deserves some respect.

I didn't say it's not harder, i was saying that ISU thought how probably is not hard to be rewarded in points that much (or in that way).

I think you will have a hard time in finding any support from ISU communications to support that claim.

The second half bonus was instituted basically from the beginning of the IJS. (At 2005 Worlds, irina Slutskaya got the bonus for three jumps. Alina was two years old.)

I didn't read the rules when bonus is implemented for the first time. I read it when they were changed and i basically quoted their words:
'197. CANADA, Figure
Rule 353, paragraph 1, h, iv) Revise as follows:
iv) In the Short Program and Free Skating of Single Skating the Base Values (but not the GOEs) for all jump Elements
started in the second half of the program will be multiplied by a special factor 1.1 in order to give credit for even
distribution of difficulties in the program, with a maximum of 2 in the Short Program and 4 in the Free program.
Reason: The rule is intended to award credit for even distribution of difficulties in the program'
So, it's about the balance of difficulty, not about the balance of aestetics (in terms of program's composition in 'right order' - which appeals for the most as more aestetic one). Her composition was actually rewarded by the judges at that time, which only means it didn't lack balance in it, and how description of that program as 'not balanced' is wrong!

 

[Scott512]

Add Marin Honda's version (from 2017 Jr Worlds) to your list of R&J. All 3 are great imo, and different enough in composition and music cuts to not be a copycat of each other.

That was a wonderful Romeo and Juliet too and the music was a little bit different than what Anastasia and Alena used with R & G. Romeo and Juliet is music that has always worked with figure skating and always will.

 

[Scott512]

Polina has anounced retirement..

https://mobile.twitter.com/InTheLoPodcast/status/1134325773362270209
So sad. Such a promising skater.

Why? Polina surdly knows the first year after eteri is a struggle. She has something different she is very tall at 5 ft 8 and offers a great contrast to most of the very short ladies figure skaters. This is sad. How old she? 18?

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Why? Polina surdly knows the first year after eteri is a struggle. She has something different she is very tall at 5 ft 8 and offers a great contrast to most of the very short ladies figure skaters. This is sad. How old she? 18?

17 I think... in her post she said she would like to focus more on studies. But she will be gravely missed I’m sure.

 

[nussnacker]

I am someone who criticized Daniil for one comment in his interview, but I am not sure if these comments are directed to me, since I was not quoted or engaged directly. Therefore, if they are not, this post will be irrelevant

that was not directed at you, el henry, if I wanted to refer to you, I would have =)
There was nothing wrong with your commentary, and I think critique is very welcome!
But someone here saying he is "dumb" or "delusional" is going a bit further than that, don't you think?

If that appears as a well rounded and thought out critique to you (as you note that you don't think there was anything wrong with comments), then we probably put different meanings in the word "critique" and let's agree to disagree =)

 

[Mathman]

Reason: The rule is intended to award credit for even distribution of difficulties in the program.'

I don't think we are in any disagreement here. Yes, the rule is and always was intended to encourage a more even distribution of difficult jumps. Putting all the jumps in the second half goes counter to this goal, just like putting all the jumps in the first half does.

As for choreographic esthetics, we still need to ask ourselves why the ISU felt that an even distribution of difficult jumps was to be preferred and encouraged.

Alina's composition was actually rewarded by the judges at that time, which only means it didn't lack balance in it, and how description of that program as 'not balanced' is wrong!

Let's agree to leave out the word "balanced" (and replace it by the ISU's choice, "even"). The ISU evidently thought that 100% back-loading is not an "even distribution of difficulty." Choreographers and coaches, seizing an opportunity in the rules, saw that they could benefit from an uneven distribution of difficult jumps, despite the ISU's intent. Last year's rule change closed that loophole.

Whether the ISU uses esthetic considerations when formulating and revising rules, that's hard to say. (Sport or Art?) For instance, there was a time for a couple of years where the rules gave extra encouragement to Biellmann positions. The result was a lot of unattractive spins. The ISU responded by changing the rules to make this feature somewhat less prominent.

On the other hand, they all but eliminated spirals. I suppose it was because a spiral is pretty to look at, but not very difficult to perform. They also changed the criteria for levels on step sequences, resulting in sequences that are harder to execute and more "sporty," but which often have less choreographic integrity.

Anyway, none of this has anything to do with Alina personally, except that she happened to be the poster child that brought the dilemma to a head. It seems to me that the ISU is quite stingy about sharing their though processes with fans. Why did they decide that a triple Axel should be worth 8.5 points in 2018 but only 8.0 points is 2019? Was it an evil conspiracy to torpedo the rise of Rika Kihira? I personally do not put much credit in speculation of this sort.

 

[andromache]

Why? Polina surdly knows the first year after eteri is a struggle. She has something different she is very tall at 5 ft 8 and offers a great contrast to most of the very short ladies figure skaters. This is sad. How old she? 18?

I love her skating so much. But I think her height makes her jumps much more difficult to rotate cleanly. Maybe she should've moved to Mishin after leaving Eteri?

It's so sad. I remember when she was being celebrated as the next big superstar. But the depth + difficulty of the field makes it incredibly difficult for ladies to justify continuing in the sport when they are "old" and haven't yet been able to reach the top (unlike "old ladies" Zhenya and Liza, for example). Plus, she has struggled with injuries.

I just read her interview (via Google translate), and she sounds like a very intelligent + studious young woman who has a good idea of what she wants her future to look like. A lot of skaters struggle with that post-retirement, but she is taking her education very seriously. I hope this is a happy ending for her, though I will miss her a lot.

 

[moriel]

I have not seen any of these interviews so can you maybe try to find some?
Because I remember ET saying they changed it after Nepela because she wanted Anna Karenina more.
Also, I think it's kinda mean to say that she couldn't have pulled it off because we saw that program twice, with the second time being in Nepela where the "uncharacteristic mistakes" were a turnaround from the lutz and that's about it. I don't understand why people think that's the end of the world. Alina was making mistakes in the sp that season too but since Russian nationals she kept nailing it. It's a learning curve.

As for Alina's programs this year, they simply don't compare with last year's ones. Especially the SP, that's my favourite SP ever to this date.

Disclaimer: considering the number of interviews, news and articles about medvedeva, finding an interview that you only vaguely remember is hard.

So a few articles:

https://rsport.ria.ru/20170911/1125569408.html
Medvedeva: "this is new content for me, more jump elements in second half. I think that I simply need to skate the program more time. Skate, and skate it as a whole."
"No, I skated it countless times. Many. I guess it means I do not work enough, means more work is needed"

there is a couple of other interviews, such as https://rsport.ria.ru/20170910/1125532775.html
https://rsport.ria.ru/20170923/1126159600.html
where Zhenya is clearly unhappy with the mistakes in free
Also, the collection of interviews imply that she was making "too many" (for her standards) mistakes in practice/training too.

Here, there is some quote attributed vaguely to federation: https://russian.rt.com/sport/article/437777-medvedeva-programma-olimpiada
"Medvedeva tried to enter new season with an even harder program which, in any case, allowed her to get a solid score, and minor mistakes could be compensated by the short program performance - the two times world champion has no rivals in short program and doesnt need to worry about it. But the closeness of competitors and the desire to skate everything as clean as possible forced her to abandon this plan".


Now, i'm pretty sure ive seen an article where someone fed-related clearly states that she kept making mistakes and trained too much to try to fix that, but cant find it now =(


I feel that while indeed she liked AK more, from the pre-AK interviews I get a strong feel that a significant part of dislike/discomfort for the first program was due to the mistakes she made (in the interviews she sounds very frustrated). If she could skate it clean with a good success rate, she would have liked the program more.

 

[NoviceFan]

In some interviews from the fed, if i am not mistaken, rusfed folks mentioned that Med kept making mistakes, and that led the team to change the program.
They also mentioned that Zhenya was overtraining it, because she kept trying to skate it clean.

I have not seen any of these interviews so can you maybe try to find some?

Disclaimer: considering the number of interviews, news and articles about medvedeva, finding an interview that you only vaguely remember is hard.

...

Here, there is some quote attributed vaguely to federation: https://russian.rt.com/sport/article/437777-medvedeva-programma-olimpiada
"Medvedeva tried to enter new season with an even harder program which, in any case, allowed her to get a solid score, and minor mistakes could be compensated by the short program performance - the two times world champion has no rivals in short program and doesnt need to worry about it. But the closeness of competitors and the desire to skate everything as clean as possible forced her to abandon this plan".


Now, i'm pretty sure ive seen an article where someone fed-related clearly states that she kept making mistakes and trained too much to try to fix that, but cant find it now =(


I feel that while indeed she liked AK more, from the pre-AK interviews I get a strong feel that a significant part of dislike/discomfort for the first program was due to the mistakes she made (in the interviews she sounds very frustrated). If she could skate it clean with a good success rate, she would have liked the program more.

I hope you find at least one interview that you referred to in your first post quoted here (which is what Vandevska was asking about, please correct me if I misunderstood). I am interested to read any of those, too.

 

[silveruskate]

Maybe she could do it, maybe she couldn't.....athletes do train and get better. It's also possible they would have tried to do it in Anna Karenina if there wasn't the injury. It isn't like you have to change the whole program music to re-fit one element. I'm not sure what the point of this conversation was, unless you're dying to say that Alina has better stamina than Zhenya, it's probably true. Both are still at the top of FS and doing their best to train and get better.

 

[melgirl25]

I have not seen any of these interviews so can you maybe try to find some?
Because I remember ET saying they changed it after Nepela because she wanted Anna Karenina more.
Also, I think it's kinda mean to say that she couldn't have pulled it off because we saw that program twice, with the second time being in Nepela where the "uncharacteristic mistakes" were a turnaround from the lutz and that's about it. I don't understand why people think that's the end of the world. Alina was making mistakes in the sp that season too but since Russian nationals she kept nailing it. It's a learning curve.

As for Alina's programs this year, they simply don't compare with last year's ones. Especially the SP, that's my favourite SP ever to this date.

That is what she said on the Japanese documentary - just about the music change though.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I don't think we are in any disagreement here. Yes, the rule is and always was intended to encourage a more even distribution of difficult jumps. Putting all the jumps in the second half goes counter to this goal, just like putting all the jumps in the first half does.

As for choreographic esthetics, we still need to ask ourselves why the ISU felt that an even distribution of difficult jumps was to be preferred and encouraged.



Let's agree to leave out the word "balanced" (and replace it by the ISU's choice, "even"). The ISU evidently thought that 100% back-loading is not an "even distribution of difficulty." Choreographers and coaches, seizing an opportunity in the rules, saw that they could benefit from an uneven distribution of difficult jumps, despite the ISU's intent. Last year's rule change closed that loophole.

Whether the ISU uses esthetic considerations when formulating and revising rules, that's hard to say. (Sport or Art?) For instance, there was a time for a couple of years where the rules gave extra encouragement to Biellmann positions. The result was a lot of unattractive spins. The ISU responded by changing the rules to make this feature somewhat less prominent.

On the other hand, they all but eliminated spirals. I suppose it was because a spiral is pretty to look at, but not very difficult to perform. They also changed the criteria for levels on step sequences, resulting in sequences that are harder to execute and more "sporty," but which often have less choreographic integrity.

Anyway, none of this has anything to do with Alina personally, except that she happened to be the poster child that brought the dilemma to a head. It seems to me that the ISU is quite stingy about sharing their though processes with fans. Why did they decide that a triple Axel should be worth 8.5 points in 2018 but only 8.0 points is 2019? Was it an evil conspiracy to torpedo the rise of Rika Kihira? I personally do not put much credit in speculation of this sort.

Well, its one thing to argue that rules are changed to reward aestetic of 'balanced programs', and completely different to say that rules are changed to better reward (only) those elements which are comprehended as more difficult to perform. And the second seems more likely according to the ISU documents i was able to found. You are right to say this has nothing to do with Alina personally, but i'm not sure she supposed to be (and she is) the poster child for that at all. Before Alina performed Don Quihote as a senior, Tarasova was claiming (i'm not sure if it was in a live comentary or in a interview, but i read the translation here) that ISU is planning to change rewarding all the jumps performed in the second half and she called it 'Medvedeva's rule' precisely. It just happened that rules are changed at the moment when Alina was 'exploated' them to the max There was also another one of Medvedevas rules which supposed to allow performing (and bonus rewarding) of 3-3-3 in a program, but apparently it was not published as a discussed thing (yet).