2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Tolstoj]

Are those skaters considered to be the same generation as Liza?
Mind you, she was born in dec 96, she's much younger than the ones you mentioned, maybe it would be more fair to compare her to the skaters that were born around her time? Gracie, Satoko?

Yeah i was thinking senior skaters from that era, but liza was still in juniors (we'll actually she was doing senior GP also), but it's not that different with Gracie and Satoko, they always had their 2 3-3 combos and that's it.

 

[zounger]

.. and I think she did quite well with Alina this year, her jumps at WC looked like they have more spring than before, and I think this is to credit Sergej who was reworking Alina's technique.
I think it's worth it to give it a little bit more time to make conclusions and patterns about the coaching styles.

Disagree, Alina's jumps regressed from the previous two seasons and you know it as well. 3ltz, 3F, 2a got off axis often this season, more than in the past, you can watch it on all replays you want, 3ltz-3lo is sometimes underrotated on the loop (especially in the free program), she trained hard for Worlds, the whole team was following her preparation as they revealed in an interview, they didn't fix a thing with the actual dynamic of her jumps though. We'll see if they fix at least her 2a for the next season but I doubt they will.

I really like this conversation Tolstoj and nussnacker that you are having, I find it constructive. Unfortunately I cannot participate more due to time and limited knowledge. But I will reply on something that I noticed.

So nussnacker is talking about the spring in jumps, you are underlining that sentence and then reply on the axis which is something different.

I think you will find it here https://vk.com/basevalue

Thanks to Alex65 for the link. So we can see that Alina's 2A for the seasons before was average at 31.0 cm. From the worlds i-scope data, it was 41 cm. We have a 10cm difference. If the data are reliable this is called an improvement in spring. We don't have the data on other jumps from the current season so I cannot comment on them.

Personally, I think the off-axis issues are related to the extra spring Alina needed this season, due to body changes to rotate her jumps. And there was some job done on that, if it continues we will see.

 

[monochrom3]

Personally, I think the off-axis issues are related to the extra spring Alina needed this season, due to body changes to rotate her jumps. And there was some job done on that, if it continues we will see.

I don't think the axis issues are consistent anyway. The one time I think the 2A in particular was pretty off axis (outside the circle) was the first one at world's FS, and the second 2A as well as the one in SP looked fine, so its not a systemic thing in any case. A skater falling on a jump is due to a lot of factors, for example the angle of the blade, the pick, the timing and coordination of the jump. Inherently, those things can throw the axis off balance, but its not really an 'axis' issue per se.

3ltz-3lo is sometimes underrotated on the loop (especially in the free program), she trained hard for Worlds, the whole team was following her preparation as they revealed in an interview, they didn't fix a thing with the actual dynamic of her jumps though.

Just something about the 3Lz-3Lo, this is a confusing jump, and multiple people have mentioned it. The problem with -Lo combinations is that it is difficult to define where the Loop combination beginsIn addition, apparently the ISU tends to allow for up to 180º prerotation on the jump – mainly because of the inherent prerotation needed to take off on the Loop itself, and more so in combination. So while a Loop may seem underrotated to us as viewers it can in fact be not. Plus, the inherent difficulty of the loop jump in combination is that it is often underrotated, see other skaters who have done it like Mao for example. Its not an Alina problem per se, but a general problem with this combination altogether.

You can check out this post that really explains the Loop and the Loop combination more in detail.
https://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/173219245859/the-takeoff-loop

There's also this old thread on GS with some users discussing why -Lo combinations aren't used that often
https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?52744-Triple-Loop-Combinations

I think its an interesting read! In all honesty many of us watching figure skating know more about the skater than the sport itself. And while the skaters themselves are great and basically go out and defy the laws of physics everytime, figure skating is really interesting as a sport in and of itself. I love the sport, and I'd really love to see more discussions about a skater's technique on here.

 

[Tolstoj]

I really like this conversation Tolstoj and nussnacker that you are having, I find it constructive. Unfortunately I cannot participate more due to time and limited knowledge. But I will reply on something that I noticed.

So nussnacker is talking about the spring in jumps, you are underlining that sentence and then reply on the axis which is something different.



Thanks to Alex65 for the link. So we can see that Alina's 2A for the seasons before was average at 31.0 cm. From the worlds i-scope data, it was 41 cm. We have a 10cm difference. If the data are reliable this is called an improvement in spring. We don't have the data on other jumps from the current season so I cannot comment on them.

Personally, I think the off-axis issues are related to the extra spring Alina needed this season, due to body changes to rotate her jumps. And there was some job done on that, if it continues we will see.

I didn't want to comment on that because it has been only one competition, we don't know if that was just the result of more training or a different approach, but yes it could be a response to other potential problems: less tightness in the air compared to last season on certain triples, 2a is definitely shorter in distance even in the free without the difficult entry.

I also invite you to check her 3ltz-3lo cause last season and the year before she used to have more flow on that element, while now you can see the effort especially with the upper body to get that 3lo and results are much more variable that way: it was huge in the SP at Worlds, while in the free it was borderline underrotated.

 

[nussnacker]

I didn't want to comment on that because it has been only one competition, we don't know if that was just the result of more training or a different approach, but yes it could be a response to other potential problems: less tightness in the air compared to last season on certain triples, 2a is definitely shorter in distance even in the free without the difficult entry.

I think 2a entries and exits remained difficult for all 2a in her programs. It's a bracket entry for the first one in free, and a transition straight after, charlotte into the second one.
I also think some 2a problems could arise specifically because of the difficult entries.

 

[monochrom3]

2a is definitely shorter in distance even in the free without the difficult entry.

All her 2As last year were done with the difficult entry (Charlotte back counter for the 2nd one that I think you're talking about), she never puts down her foot before taking off on either of the 2As in the free, same as in the SP. I just went back to double check it.

 

[Tolstoj]

I think 2a entries and exits remained difficult for all 2a in her programs. It's a bracket entry for the first one in free, and a transition straight after, charlotte into the second one.
I also think some 2a problems could arise specifically because of the difficult entries.

Yeah i mean i consider only the charlotte entrance a really difficult entry, cause if you look at the other ladies, a 2a with the bracket entry is very common.

 

[Fluture]

Sasha from 2017. She already did two lutz combos, 3Lz+3Lo with Rippon... Her jumps always were amazing. Was she under Eteri back then already?

https://www.instagram.com/talented_skaters/p/BycBJPwpq20/?igshid=199iw2jgzxoqu

 

[Lunalovesskating]

Sasha from 2017. She already did two lutz combos, 3Lz+3Lo with Rippon... Her jumps always were amazing. Was she under Eteri back then already?

https://www.instagram.com/talented_skaters/p/BycBJPwpq20/?igshid=199iw2jgzxoqu

Yes, she switched to Eteri before the 2016/17 season I think.

 

[monochrom3]

Yeah i mean i consider only the charlotte entrance a really difficult entry, cause if you look at the other ladies, a 2a with the bracket entry is very common.

I don't really think it matters what you consider is difficult. The bracket entry is common, but it doesn't mean it isn't considered a difficult entry. The bracket by itself is already an advanced move, since you need to turn your body opposite the rotational direction of the travel curve. Also the jump has a difficult exit.

That one jump you mentioned was the only time she was off axis (outside the circle) on the 2A all season, therefore the height and the distance of the jump would, expectedly, be less than her average. A better comparison will be to take the jump that was not off axis as a fluke, even if it has a difficult entry.

Also the charlotte spiral is difficult, but the real difficult part of the entry is more so the back counter into the 2A. It is hands down the toughest entry for an Axel, or any jump for that matter, and it is for that reason that only one other skater has managed it consistently, which is Yuzuru Hanyu.

 

[Tolstoj]

I don't really think it matters what you consider is difficult. The bracket entry is common, but it doesn't mean it isn't considered a difficult entry. The bracket by itself is already an advanced move, since you need to turn your body opposite the rotational direction of the travel curve. Also the jump has a difficult exit.

That one jump you mentioned was the only time she was off axis (outside the circle) on the 2A all season, therefore the height and the distance of the jump would, expectedly, be less than her average. A better comparison will be to take the jump that was not off axis as a fluke, even if it has a difficult entry.

Also the charlotte spiral is difficult, but the real difficult part of the entry is more so the back counter into the 2A. It is hands down the toughest entry for an Axel, or any jump for that matter, and it is for that reason that only one other skater has managed it, which is Yuzuru Hanyu.

I'm not questioning whether it should be considered difficult from ISU or not, i'm just personally considering that an easier entry compared to the charlotte.

Regardless it doesn't change a thing from my previous statement: Alina's 2A used to be bigger in distance in previous seasons where she always had difficult entries. It wasn't the biggest 2a in the world even previously but it used to be slightly bigger.

About the off axis, you can spot it in other attempts this season.

https://youtu.be/FK6luB3p744?t=110

In others it's just leaning.

https://youtu.be/eIO7oZ3FpiQ?t=68

If you ask me i think she should start work on that distance, otherwise her 2a might look like Medvedeva's 2a from the Olympic season in the future.

 

[Fluture]

I'm not questioning whether it should be considered difficult from ISU or not, i'm just considering that an easier entry compared to the charlotte.

Regardless it doesn't change a thing from my previous statement: Alina's 2A used to be bigger in distance in previous seasons where she always had difficult entries. It wasn't the biggest 2a in the world even previously but it used to be slightly bigger.

About the off axis, you can spot it in other attempts this season.

https://youtu.be/FK6luB3p744?t=110

In others it's just leaning.

https://youtu.be/eIO7oZ3FpiQ?t=68

If you ask me i think she should start work on that distance, otherwise her 2a might look like Medvedeva's 2a from the Olympic season in the future.

To be fair, Alina was injured during Russian Nationals. Her jumps were all pretty bad there, not only her 2A and I think it was a result from that severe burn she had on her leg.

In general, though, I would say that her axel isn’t her best jump. It was always pretty “swingy“ and small, not only this year. She jumps very far into the circle, that‘s why she doesn‘t get a lot of distance. Her 2A during the SP at the Olympics is an example of that.

https://www.google.at/amp/s/the-rea...alina-zagitovas-jumps-lots-of-people-have/amp

Here‘s an analysis of Alina‘s axel last season.

This season, her jumps all have become a bit worse as she grew. This is normal but it will depend on whether she gets back on track and adjusts to her new body. I‘d say the jumps at Worlds looked a lot better than what we saw earlier during the season. Jackie Wong said they had more spring than when he‘d seen them at GPF. So, she is on a good way.

But I have to say the 3Lo after the combo still sometimes looks problematic, especially in the FS where it‘s been UR or borderline more often than not. It was the same at Worlds, she barely hung on to it. This combo has definitely become harder for her. But she gets it in the SP most of the time, so maybe switching the order of the 3Lz+3T and 3Lz+3Lo would be a good idea? She‘d have more stamina left in the beginning of the program. We‘ll see.

Her 3S also isn‘t a particularly good jump. I think it‘s one of her worse, very small and off axis a lot. But she get‘s it done 99% of the time so it‘s okay. Other than the 2A (sometimes), 3S and the 3Lo in the combo, her jumps are usually all solid and beautiful (maybe except from that flat edge on the 3Lz). She‘s a natural jumper. If she can get more speed in the entry and adjusts to the body changed, she‘ll be even stronger next year.

I‘m interested in Alina‘s layout for next season anyway. I think it will stay the same unless she does a quad.

 

[katymay]

Yes, she switched to Eteri before the 2016/17 season I think.

Somewhere I saw a video of her when she was 10-I never would have pegged her for the superstar she is now. (IMO). She was good, but I didn't think her jumping ability was anything special. Say what you will about Eteri, and perhaps some of her training methods are questionable, but she took a skater with some ability and made her into....Trusova.

 

[LiamForeman]

Somewhere I saw a video of her when she was 10-I never would have pegged her for the superstar she is now. (IMO). She was good, but I didn't think her jumping ability was anything special. Say what you will about Eteri, and perhaps some of her training methods are questionable, but she took a skater with some ability and made her into....Trusova.

Well, this is Trusova in 2013: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvx-Xr7rmew&t=76s
And this is her THREE years later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me1A8SjAaSM

Whoever took Trusova from her 2013 level to her 2016 level is a miracle worker as far as I'm concerned!!!! I would have never expected after seeing her at her 2013 level that FIVE years later she would be landing two different quads at JrWorlds!!

 

[tempo]

Well, this is Trusova in 2013: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvx-Xr7rmew&t=76s
And this is her THREE years later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me1A8SjAaSM

Whoever took Trusova from her 2013 level to her 2016 level is a miracle worker as far as I'm concerned!!!! I would have never expected in five years after the 2013 level that FIVE years later she would be landing two different quads at JrWorlds!!

I think the first video is fake, that is not Trusova. Another body, another face, another arm movements, another short hair.
But here is definitely Sasha in 2011:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jgq23GE-lE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrreoQeJ76M

 

[LiamForeman]

EEK!!! I'm sorry! But still, with the video you posted it's still incredible that five years later she improved so much to her 2016 level and seven years later was landing quads!!!

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

The first video is fake, that is not Trusova. Another body, another face, another arm movements, another short hair.
But here is definitely Sasha:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jgq23GE-lE

https://youtu.be/SkSzV7rWdCE
Watch Sasha in 2015-16.....it’s amazing how far she has come IMO. Tiny Boss is all in!!!!

 

[Wombat1800]

https://youtu.be/SkSzV7rWdCE
Watch Sasha in 2015-16.....it’s amazing how far she has come IMO. Tiny Boss is all in!!!!

Pretty sure it's 2016-17, but still, the improvement is great, and it's obvious she was pretty skilled even then!

 

[Happy Skates]

https://www.instagram.com/p/ByfqHE1gWBN

Yasmina Kadyrova 4S+3T

Taken from the ladies and the quad thread -
finally there is a public video of her quad! I wonder if she could factor into JGP selection next year. She was injured last year but did alright at the Asian Youth Winter Games (or whatever that was called), and now has a quad (albeit probably under-rotated and might not be consistent). Is there any chance she could be invited to test skates?

 

[LiamForeman]

How many are invited to test skates? It's probable that these would be invited: Kanysheva, Valieva, Usacheva, Kromykh, Tarakanova, Vasilieva, Sinitsina, Tarusina (if she doesn't go senior). I would think someone from the Mishin school would be invited, so Kadyrova seems to have a great chance.