2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[flanker]

But the whole team worked on it.

Liza is one example from Mishin who is still very competitive internationally in the 20s post puberty, she "survived".

All the other russian coaches have zero ladies skaters still competitive internationally in the 20s post puberty.

I'd like people to reflect more on that.

Others answered better than me, yet I would still add that when you say "But the whole team worked on it" you support my theory. That's also how it works, or how it should work. When e. g. Alina struggled during the season due to puberty and growth, I think we can say with certainty and dignity that the whole team worked on regaining her jumps. I think Alina "survived puberty" and it is completely insignificant whether you survive it in 16/17 or in 20+. But you survive it due to hard work, not due to some magick stick-er, I mean "technique that survives puberty" (definitely not by itself). To be honest I don't believe in such thing, it's like the Bermuda Triangle - everybody talks about it, yet nobody has ever seen it.

 

[Lunalovesskating]

2 girls in August with Mai Mihara, and Nakano's skaters seems to have a very reliable technique.

Anyway it's a bit different because the wave of great japanese ladies skaters started later than the russians, only 3 years ago, before that there was basically only Asada and some random good result from Hongo, Suzuki, Miyahara.

But you're bringing a good point, it's an interesting watch, how many of these skaters will last. I wouldn't say Hamada's technique is that good either if you want to last for 10 years: even more than Eteri/Sergei, her technique is all about the fast rotation, you can see Miyahara is struggling much more than in the past, Marin Honda also was struggling and had to leave.

Marin had to leave for different reasons. She and her coach had different ideas regarding Marin's training

 

[andromache]

Now, (2). Since when skating past 20 is a good thing?
I said it multiple times, and I say it again. While I will miss my favs, I would rather see them win everything early and retire at 18. If i had a kid and it skated at elite level, I would want my child to leave sport around 18.
Why? First, injuries. It is something that builds up, and becomes worse over time. Not only that, but it is something that won't truly heal. It is something that will return when the skater gets older. All those fractures, injuries and so on will return as pains and health issues when the skater is 40+. I want my favourite skaters to be healthy adults, and not be like Plushenko. I want them to leave sport while they are fairly young and things heal better, and before they accumulated too many injuries.
Second, life. I don't want my favourite skaters to have coaching as the only option. Not everybody is made to be a coach, and not all coaches are successful. Getting a good education in a different while skating at elite level is not trivial. Getting a good education when you are 25 or 30 is also not trivial - all your friends have jobs and families already, and you are the only one studying with no money and so on. It breaks my heart when I read how Bruno Massot struggles financially, or how Serafima Sakhanovich struggles finacially. Leaving elite sport early, after winning your share of medals and earning some $$$, with the option to earn some more in shows, to take any direction you want sounds like a great option to me. That is what I want for my favs.
I really see 0 reasons for long careers in ELITE sport to be a good thing.

If an elite sport is good for kids and bad for adults then it shouldn't be an elite sport at all. It shouldn't belong in the Olympics. Youth Olympics, sure, but not the regular Olympics. A child's sport does not belong at the highest level with the highest honors.

A higher age minimum will mean that kids won't train as hard when they are kids in order to preserve their long-term physical health so they can achieve greatness as adult competitors at the elite level. They will learn to take care of their bodies instead of pushing them as hard as they can as fast as they can.

It is actually far more dangerous to get injured and heal while you are a child, because you aren't done growing yet, and the injury can negatively impact your growth. Sure, children heal faster, but that doesn't mean it is better to get injured as a child.

 

[Jeanie19]

Yep, we do.
Btw, you should list coaches who have ladies skaters still competitive internationally in the 20s post puberty.

Top 20 SB from last year by year of birth.
1996 Tuktamysheva, Bell
1998 Tennell, Miyahara
1999 Medvedeva, Mihara, Hendrickx
2000 Tursynbaeva, Sakamoto, Sakhanovich
2002 Zagitova, Kihira, Samodurova, Yamashita, Cui
2003 Kostornaia, Lim, Tarusina
2004 Trusova, Shcherbakova

There is literally 2 skaters 20 years old, and 2 skaters that are older than 20.
Out of 20 skaters.


That is (1).


Now, (2). Since when skating past 20 is a good thing?
I said it multiple times, and I say it again. While I will miss my favs, I would rather see them win everything early and retire at 18. If i had a kid and it skated at elite level, I would want my child to leave sport around 18.
Why? First, injuries. It is something that builds up, and becomes worse over time. Not only that, but it is something that won't truly heal. It is something that will return when the skater gets older. All those fractures, injuries and so on will return as pains and health issues when the skater is 40+. I want my favourite skaters to be healthy adults, and not be like Plushenko. I want them to leave sport while they are fairly young and things heal better, and before they accumulated too many injuries.
Second, life. I don't want my favourite skaters to have coaching as the only option. Not everybody is made to be a coach, and not all coaches are successful. Getting a good education in a different while skating at elite level is not trivial. Getting a good education when you are 25 or 30 is also not trivial - all your friends have jobs and families already, and you are the only one studying with no money and so on. It breaks my heart when I read how Bruno Massot struggles financially, or how Serafima Sakhanovich struggles finacially. Leaving elite sport early, after winning your share of medals and earning some $$$, with the option to earn some more in shows, to take any direction you want sounds like a great option to me. That is what I want for my favs.
I really see 0 reasons for long careers in ELITE sport to be a good thing.

Are there any female skaters born 1997 and 2001? None in top 20.

 

[Payako]

I strongly disagree with all these negative takes on Mishin.

Mishin is probably the only top coach who teaches a reliable technique in Russia, a technique that can last post puberty.

I'd like to remind you that according to most people on the internet and in Russia, Sofia was essentially doomed 3 years ago already cause she didn't have the best jumps, she didn't have the most difficult programs,...

2 seasons ago she beated both Tarakanova and Kostornaya at JGP Zagreb and Italy against all odds.

Last season she beated OG Alina Zagitova at the Europeans, and she is now the current European champion.

She HAS musicality and a great presence on the ice, even with watered down choreographies, she can sell the program better than Eteri's skaters which are all business all the time, no emotions whatsoever. That's why i think, while Mishin skaters are not as polished, they are definitely more authentic on the ice.

Performance and Interpretation are criteria for the PCS, it's not just skating skills.

Her other quality is consistency, which i'd say it's extremely important in this era because so many skaters literally come and go, they don't last more than 2-3 seasons, if you manage to stay in the mix, your day will come, and with the 3A she is competitive technically.

Yes Tutberidze is more successful with ladies right now, i'm the first to admit that, but it doesn't mean all other coaches are trash.

Those competitons Sofia beated Tarakanova and Kostornaia,It's because tarakanova messed up in FP and Kostornaia was caught her edges and underrotation.I would like to remind you they both beated Sofia at gpf with silver and bronze while Sofia was sixth.As I mentioned Sofia needs to wait for other skater's mistakes.When they went clean,there are no way to beat them.

And I don't think Tuktamysheva survived from puberty.She onced was dead then she revived. She is the oldest russian skater except Leonova.Imo there was just once she was successful(1415).Yes she worked hard last season but she didn't go to euros and worlds.We know two competitons` medals are most important things to career except Olympics.
You said Tuktamysheva survived.But other skaters like Nugumanova, Fedichkina,Gulyakova etc you never mentioned As your logic,then this could show how Mishin is not teaching reliable technique?

 

[Tolstoj]

Others answered better than me, yet I would still add that when you say "But the whole team worked on it" you support my theory. That's also how it works, or how it should work. When e. g. Alina struggled during the season due to puberty and growth, I think we can say with certainty and dignity that the whole team worked on regaining her jumps. I think Alina "survived puberty" and it is completely insignificant whether you survive it in 16/17 or in 20+. But you survive it due to hard work, not due to some magick stick-er, I mean "technique that survives puberty" (definitely not by itself). To be honest I don't believe in such thing, it's like the Bermuda Triangle - everybody talks about it, yet nobody has ever seen it.

Yes, because my point is: i fear the other coaches don't bother. Why working your a... off to keep a skater competitive during puberty when you have a next generation of kids who doesn't have to deal with it? By the time they reach puberty, you'll have another generation and so on until something breaks the circle. Even the less successful coaches they are all benefiting from this system.

To be honest i don't even like the wording "surviving puberty" because it's not about that but more jumping accordingly to your body which has changed in the meantime.

On that sense i've already stated here that Alina Zagitova hasn't been through that yet, some of her jumps need rework in my opinion, they are still the same jumps she had in juniors, but worse now, and i hope they're addressing those issues now in the summer rather than ignoring them and then:

"oopsy somehow Alina is not that consistent anymore, it must be lack of motivation"

 

[Tolstoj]

Those competitons Sofia beated Tarakanova and Kostornaia,It's because tarakanova messed up in FP and Kostornaia was caught her edges and underrotation.I would like to remind you they both beated Sofia at gpf with silver and bronze while Sofia was sixth.As I mentioned Sofia needs to wait for other skater's mistakes.When they went clean,there are no way to beat them.

And I don't think Tuktamysheva survived from puberty.She onced was dead then she revived. She is the oldest russian skater except Leonova.Imo there was just once she was successful(1415).Yes she worked hard last season but she didn't go to euros and worlds.We know two competitons` medals are most important things to career except Olympics.
You said Tuktamysheva survived.But other skaters like Nugumanova, Fedichkina,Gulyakova etc you never mentioned As your logic,then this could show how Mishin is not teaching reliable technique?

That shows how valuable is consistency when more talented skaters have a bad day or how valuable is having correct edges that random day when judges notice that a Lutz should stay on the outside for example.

I laughed at "dead and revived". Is she Jesus?

Tuktamysheva proved she was ready for Worlds and should have gone in my opinion, the reason why she didn't go is all political. She medalled at every international competition she has been and won most of them.

As for the other skaters it's also very important at which age they joined the group: Gulyakova only came last year, she was in Moscow before (so rare to see a Moscow skater moving to SPB, you usually see the other way around), she didn't learn how to jump with him, but i'd say her results are improved: she finished in the top 10 at Nationals, the year before she was 13th.

Fedichkina joined later, she learned all her triples from Rukavicin.

Nugumanova was a great skater and still is (her jumping technique hasn't changed) in my opinion, she was taught as a very artistic skater (this is a good reminder for the people who say Mishin skaters have atrocious artistry), she has great balletic qualities, unfortunately at domestic competitions PCS is all political and no reward for artistry. It's a shame cause still today, Nugumanova is one of the few skaters who showed far better posture and skating skills than even the top russians.

She left Mishin apparently due to behaviour and not lack of results.

 

[flanker]

Yes, because my point is: i fear the other coaches don't bother. Why working your a... off to keep a skater competitive during puberty when you have a next generation of kids who doesn't have to deal with it? By the time they reach puberty, you'll have another generation and so on until something breaks the circle. Even the less successful coaches they are all benefiting from this system.

To be honest i don't even like the wording "surviving puberty" because it's not about that but more jumping accordingly to your body which has changed in the meantime.

On that sense i've already stated here that Alina Zagitova hasn't been through that yet, some of her jumps need rework in my opinion, they are still the same jumps she had in juniors, but worse now, and i hope they're addressing those issues now in the summer rather than ignoring them and then:

"oopsy somehow Alina is not that consistent anymore, it must be lack of motivation"

First, the thing you still can't understand is there is no such a thing as all time every situation working technique. That simply doesn't exist. You have to work all the time and all the time you have to adjust and adapt. It doesn't matter whether you work with Mishin or anybody else. What Liza did was work work work, it was literally newly gained ability, not a return to magical Mishin's technique. If there is a credit to Mishin, it defintely is his patience and willingness to devote his time to her, but not some exceptional technique that he would teach his students. They don't have such a thing.

Second, As for Alina, I've never heard anything like "Alina has lack of motivation" that would come from anybody from her team. Her team worked with her on her jumps as much as it was possible during such a short time. And she won the world championship. This is all time process, not riding the bike, that one allegedly never forgets. There is plenty of time before next season starts and there will be work during the season as well just like there was such work during the last season. That's about "other coaches don't bother". They bother, but not about what you think they should. But you made a judgement as if this was the final point and there were no future treainings, no future work on jumps and other technique, because you say "they don't bother". That's wrong conclusion, it never was like that in the past. The most obvious example is Lilbet and I can't see a single thing that would approve another conclusion about Alina.

 

[Mathman]

Second, life. I don't want my favourite skaters to have coaching as the only option, and not all coaches are successful. Getting a good education in a different (field) while skating at elite level is not trivial. Getting a good education when you are 25 or 30 is also not trivial...

I always wonder how elite athletes deal with the "rest of my life" dilemma: Let's say you are the World or Olympic Champion in your sport. You are the best in the world at your chosen endeavor.

Eventually your athletic career is done. You have another 60 years to fill. So you go back to school and become an architect or a firefighter. That's wonderful. But in your heart you know that you will never be as good an architect or firefighter as you were a skater.

(On the other hand, you have all the options before you that everyone else has -- plus an Olympic medal in your sock drawer. )

 

[moriel]

If an elite sport is good for kids and bad for adults then it shouldn't be an elite sport at all. It shouldn't belong in the Olympics. Youth Olympics, sure, but not the regular Olympics. A child's sport does not belong at the highest level with the highest honors.

A higher age minimum will mean that kids won't train as hard when they are kids in order to preserve their long-term physical health so they can achieve greatness as adult competitors at the elite level. They will learn to take care of their bodies instead of pushing them as hard as they can as fast as they can.

It is actually far more dangerous to get injured and heal while you are a child, because you aren't done growing yet, and the injury can negatively impact your growth. Sure, children heal faster, but that doesn't mean it is better to get injured as a child.

Literally all elite sports are bad for health. If you believe otherwise, you are extremely naive.

Folks, there is nothing healthy about elite sports. Nothing. Nope. Nein. No health. There is no way to train for that "taking care of your body" and "remaining healthy" and blabla. Its just not happening.

Also if you think kids wont train as hard, you are also extremely naive. Do you really believe that Trusova wouldnt be jumping quads right now if the age limit for seniors was, lets say, 18? She would, because that is the only way to ensure she will be able to train on that level.
Are you saying Mishin is wrong, also? He was the one (one of the coaches, but he got authority) who said that women, usually, have the jumps they learned before puberty, and that is it. You know what that means, right? They will train quads and triples just like they do now, except they wont be winning big stuff and earning money.

And you didnt get my point really. It is equally bad for everyone, so between spending 20 years training on that level, and 10 years on that level.

 

[colormyworld240]

I strongly disagree with all these negative takes on Mishin.

Mishin is probably the only top coach who teaches a reliable technique in Russia, a technique that can last post puberty.

I'd like to remind you that according to most people on the internet and in Russia, Sofia was essentially doomed 3 years ago already cause she didn't have the best jumps, she didn't have the most difficult programs,...

2 seasons ago she beated both Tarakanova and Kostornaya at JGP Zagreb and Italy against all odds.

Last season she beated OG Alina Zagitova at the Europeans, and she is now the current European champion.

She HAS musicality and a great presence on the ice, even with watered down choreographies, she can sell the program better than Eteri's skaters which are all business all the time, no emotions whatsoever. That's why i think, while Mishin skaters are not as polished, they are definitely more authentic on the ice.

Performance and Interpretation are criteria for the PCS, it's not just skating skills.

Her other quality is consistency, which i'd say it's extremely important in this era because so many skaters literally come and go, they don't last more than 2-3 seasons, if you manage to stay in the mix, your day will come, and with the 3A she is competitive technically.

Yes Tutberidze is more successful with ladies right now, i'm the first to admit that, but it doesn't mean all other coaches are trash.

Have you ever even watched Anna Shcherbakova skate?....

 

[colormyworld240]

But the whole team worked on it.

Liza is one example from Mishin who is still very competitive internationally in the 20s post puberty, she "survived".

All the other russian coaches have zero ladies skaters still competitive internationally in the 20s post puberty.

I'd like people to reflect more on that.

Or maybe Liza herself wants to skate into her 20s post puberty, and wanted to stay with Mishin. Not every skater wants this. I don't think you can say a certain coach can't coach skaters through puberty if they haven't yet. It's just they haven't, not that they absolutely cannot. Skaters leave coaches all the time for various reasons. In Eteri's group there is a lot of competition. Not every skater wants to remain in that environment if they start to struggle, like many do during puberty. That's their right, but also doesn't mean it's a bad environment.

 

[karina17]

Sofia Akatieva basically destroys the "Senior age should be raised because the younger ones won't work as hard on difficult elements" argument.

If "I have to wait 2 more years to turn junior" won't stop Akatieva from learning quads and a triple axel (and jumping this in a gala), "I have to wait 2 more years to turn senior" won't stop anybody.

 

[andromache]

Literally all elite sports are bad for health. If you believe otherwise, you are extremely naive.

Folks, there is nothing healthy about elite sports. Nothing. Nope. Nein. No health. There is no way to train for that "taking care of your body" and "remaining healthy" and blabla. Its just not happening.

Also if you think kids wont train as hard, you are also extremely naive. Do you really believe that Trusova wouldnt be jumping quads right now if the age limit for seniors was, lets say, 18? She would, because that is the only way to ensure she will be able to train on that level.
Are you saying Mishin is wrong, also? He was the one (one of the coaches, but he got authority) who said that women, usually, have the jumps they learned before puberty, and that is it. You know what that means, right? They will train quads and triples just like they do now, except they wont be winning big stuff and earning money.

And you didnt get my point really. It is equally bad for everyone, so between spending 20 years training on that level, and 10 years on that level.

I agree there is nothing healthy about elite sport. So why would we let a child do it? Children do not have the ability to make rational, logical decisions. Adults do (at least better than children). Adults can make their own informed decisions about their body. Children can't.

Trusova might be training quads now if the age limit for seniors was 18, but I bet she would be training them much less frequently. She wouldn't be doing them in shows, for example. She would only be doing them in a safe, controlled environment, for a limited amount of time to not risk injuries from overtraining. Learn the quads, but don't overtrain them, and minimize the risk to your body. Protect children, let adults take more risks and compete in the elite sport.

 

[el henry]

I have never understood the argument that "young skaters will do it [such as training quads] anyway".

Really? Have any of you ever raised a teenager?

You will not have your car if you continue to train that many quads every day at practice, I will take away your cell phone if you continue to train that many quads at practice, I will withdraw you from whatever rink you are training at and I will not give my permission for you to travel to any competitions if you continue to train so many quads at practice. I don't care if you win Olympic gold or not. I don't care if every other girl in every other rink wins and you don't.

*That's* how you limit it.

There are a million gazillion things that can be done to limit the training of young teens or teens. Whether or not someone *wants* to do that is another question. Whether someone making a decision for a 15 year old approves of the training regimen is another question. Whether an adult wants to defer to a 14 or 15 year old in making this decision is another question.

But to think that it simply cannot be limited, is, well, extremely naive.

 

[Amei]

First, the thing you still can't understand is there is no such a thing as all time every situation working technique. That simply doesn't exist. You have to work all the time and all the time you have to adjust and adapt. It doesn't matter whether you work with Mishin or anybody else. What Liza did was work work work, it was literally newly gained ability, not a return to magical Mishin's technique. If there is a credit to Mishin, it defintely is his patience and willingness to devote his time to her, but not some exceptional technique that he would teach his students. They don't have such a thing.

Second, As for Alina, I've never heard anything like "Alina has lack of motivation" that would come from anybody from her team. Her team worked with her on her jumps as much as it was possible during such a short time. And she won the world championship. This is all time process, not riding the bike, that one allegedly never forgets. There is plenty of time before next season starts and there will be work during the season as well just like there was such work during the last season. That's about "other coaches don't bother". They bother, but not about what you think they should. But you made a judgement as if this was the final point and there were no future treainings, no future work on jumps and other technique, because you say "they don't bother". That's wrong conclusion, it never was like that in the past. The most obvious example is Lilbet and I can't see a single thing that would approve another conclusion about Alina.

Tolstoj wasn't saying that's what they were saying but that if her jumps don't get re-worked and she's not consistent that the excuse provided is that she lacks motivation. - That's what Lipnitskaia was accused of

And the 'plenty of time' conversation isn't 1 that can really be used with Alina, from what it looks like she's doing a bunch of shows in June/July in Japan. Test skates are in September. 2 months doesn't leave a lot of time for someone that needs re-working on her doubles/triples, needs to get a triple axel or a quad to compete with her training mates, and probably needs her programs choreographed.

 

[moriel]

I have never understood the argument that "young skaters will do it [such as training quads] anyway".

Really? Have any of you ever raised a teenager?

You will not have your car if you continue to train that many quads every day at practice, I will take away your cell phone if you continue to train that many quads at practice, I will withdraw you from whatever rink you are training at and I will not give my permission for you to travel to any competitions if you continue to train so many quads at practice. I don't care if you win Olympic gold or not. I don't care if every other girl in every other rink wins and you don't.

*That's* how you limit it.

There are a million gazillion things that can be done to limit the training of young teens or teens. Whether or not someone *wants* to do that is another question. Whether someone making a decision for a 15 year old approves of the training regimen is another question. Whether an adult wants to defer to a 14 or 15 year old in making this decision is another question.

But to think that it simply cannot be limited, is, well, extremely naive.

Well, again, i wonder if you read the person's argument.
"The age limit should be raised to make sure teens don't overtrain dont break themselves with quads and so on and for them to be healthier overall".
While I never raised a teenager, I still remember being one. While, possible, the cell phone would have stopped me and my buddies, something as in "well, now you wont be able to compete with grown-ups for more 2 years" would make literally zero difference I would still do all the same to kick *sses of my peers.

just saying.

 

[neud]

I have never understood the argument that "young skaters will do it [such as training quads] anyway".

Really? Have any of you ever raised a teenager?

You will not have your car if you continue to train that many quads every day at practice

In Russia you already can't drive a car until age of 18 by law.

But to think that it simply cannot be limited, is, well, extremely naive.

I would wait until USA or Canada (or parents) show an example and ban Alysa Liu or Stephen Gogolev from competition until age of 18. But all I see from USA is "In Quads We Trust".

 

[Happy Skates]

I have never understood the argument that "young skaters will do it [such as training quads] anyway".

Really? Have any of you ever raised a teenager?

You will not have your car if you continue to train that many quads every day at practice, I will take away your cell phone if you continue to train that many quads at practice, I will withdraw you from whatever rink you are training at and I will not give my permission for you to travel to any competitions if you continue to train so many quads at practice. I don't care if you win Olympic gold or not. I don't care if every other girl in every other rink wins and you don't.

*That's* how you limit it.

There are a million gazillion things that can be done to limit the training of young teens or teens. Whether or not someone *wants* to do that is another question. Whether someone making a decision for a 15 year old approves of the training regimen is another question. Whether an adult wants to defer to a 14 or 15 year old in making this decision is another question.

But to think that it simply cannot be limited, is, well, extremely naive.

I don't think anyone's point has been that there isn't a way to stop a teen from training a quad (obviously a teen's parent/coach could stop them if they want to), but that raising the age limit specifically won't stop the general trend of teens training them. Your point was also on a micro scale about how one parent can stop their own child from training a jump, which I'm sure happens sometimes. But people are talking about stopping the trend in general, and you can't exactly make a law that teens every teen that trains a quad gets grounded . I think the only thing that would stop the trend of training quads would be not valuing them in the scale of values. As someone said a bit earlier, even Sofia Akatieva, who is two years out from juniors and four years out from seniors, is training quads/3a. You're also assuming that skating parents are responsible and care about their children's safety over them winning - a bold assumption. I grew up around skating parents, and a lot of times this is not the case. When people say "teens will still train them anyways", they mean "athletes and their coaches and parents will still make the decision for the teen to train triples/quads anyways".

 

[neud]

Trusova might be training quads now if the age limit for seniors was 18, but I bet she would be training them much less frequently. She wouldn't be doing them in shows, for example.

Why wouldn't she? She loves it!