2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Scott512]

I would say stop trying because they don't want to see that what daniil did was wrong. Stop wasting your time on them.

Everyone in here has said he made a mistake, a miss judgment or worse. No one is letting him get away with anything. Even those in here that like Danill.

The question is now will this controversy cause Alina to lose faith in Danill? My guess is no but who knows.

 

[Tavi...]

To be honest, I see Jojo Gomez as villain here.
The choreo IS NOT COPYRIGHTED, as she said it herself in the comments. Which means she owns nothing, and she is basically bullying Daniil and Alina.


And I say this as a fellow artist who had quite a few copyright issues before. If there is no copyright, well, you own nothing there.

In the US, a musical or choreographic work is copyrighted as soon as it’s fixed in a tangible medium. You don’t have to register it to own the right. Daniil infringed Gomez’s copyright, pure and simple.

 

[Happy Skates]

Good analysis. I think it really depends on who's skating against who, but seeing as how all of them are really good, even someone with silver will get a 2nd event. Vasilieva seems to have good jumps and some consistency. Valieva and Kanysheva are confirmed for 2 imo, and perhaps Tarusina given her consistency. We still don't know how's Tarakanova with the new coaching change, and how will Usacheva perform, though Kromykh seems quite set too.

Now, questions for everyone here:

1. Considering we've seen some of these juniors do quads, how early in the season do you think we'll see them try it in competition? Will Valieva follow in Trusova's footsteps and have it in her FS from the beginning? Will she become the youngest to land a quad (considering she does it before New Year)?

2. Who do you think is most likely to only get 1 event?

3. Also, I thought that Russia had 18 spots in total like for the seniors, especially since it's 7 events. Why isn't it like that for the juniors?

4. I went back and checked that last year they used up 14 spots, and why oh why didn't they give a second event to Sinitsyna, or even Vasilieva?

5. Who do you think will be the leader of the group? Valieva is the world's sweetheart right now, and keeping her SP was the best strategic thing they've done. If she lands that quad she's unstoppable: she'd have both Kostornaia's PCS and Sasha's TES. Otherwise, Kanysheva's on the rise.

Ah so many variables for the juniors too!

Not sure if 4 was answered but through all the drama I didn't catch it - Vasilieva and Sinitsyna weren't given second events this year because they got 3rd at their first events respectively (brutal right? - but necessary because to give them second events they would've had to deny a second event to someone who got a silver or gold).

As for 5, I do think Valieva looks to be on the "leader of the juniors" path. People love to watch her and now she's got the quad. And the federation seems to be behind her as they put her on the junior national team before even competing internationally or even at junior nats. It's all up to what Eteri can do with that consistency now - she was really improving with that by the end of this past season so hopefully she stays on that track and maybe can get that quad in competition also which will help her compete with someone like Alysa technically.

In my heart I want Tarakanova and Sinitsyna to also lead juniors, although I think Kanysheva is more likely to come out ahead of them due to consistency (I like her also just not quite as much as the former two) - although all three have struggled with consistency in the past. Either way I think these four will be somewhere at the head of the pack. I also hope Daria Usacheva can figure out her consistency because I constantly find her skating growing on me. Beautiful extensions and musicality and huge jumps.

 

[Skater Boy]

Maybe someone can explain. In Russia it is fair to say the only two skaters that have fully survived puberty are Liza T and Alena Leonova who I am not sure if she is even going to get B competitions? Evgenia and Alina are struggling and trying to work on their technique to survive all the changes. The three A's are yet to go through puberty. Have Sofia and maria survived puberty. Though Sotskova has underrotation problems - not sure if that is due to growth or just her poor skating technique? How odd that the world bronze medallist (Evgenia) has a really good chance of not being i the top five in her nation - I guess the same for the world gold medallist Alina and Euro champ Sofia. I do wonder how the Russian ladies will fair against the Japanese ladies who seem to survive puberty far better.

 

[DanseMacabre]

In the US, a musical or choreographic work is copyrighted as soon as it’s fixed in a tangible medium. You don’t have to register it to own the right. Daniil infringed Gomez’s copyright, pure and simple.

Exactly. And that's not just in the US either. It's part of the Berne Convention, which is the international standard for copyright law.

In case it's still not clear for anyone, committing a dance to video qualifies as a tangible medium. For example, I'm an author and though neither I nor my publisher have ever registered my published work to the copyright office, it is still MY copyright because it's published in book form. So even if Jojo never registered a copyright (or understands how copyright works which is fair enough because that particular law is a bit esoteric), her choreography is still legally hers. So, no, it was never free for the taking. That's not how that works at all.

But Daniil apologized and acknowledged that he was in the wrong and I'm personally satisfied with that (whether or not Jojo is is up to her) so I'm not going to keep beating a dead horse.

 

[karina17]

I was going through the comments on Jojo Gomez's post, and Jojo has said that she's not looking for monetary compensation because she knows her work isn't copyrighted. Apparently all she wants is credit for her work, which is fair, and I think she's getting that.

I'm kind of surprised the mods haven't intervened yet. I woke up to 6 new pages and copyright drama was the last thing I was expecting.

 

[DanseMacabre]

I was going through the comments on Jojo Gomez's post, and Jojo has said that she's not looking for monetary compensation because she knows her work isn't copyrighted. Apparently all she wants is credit for her work, which is fair, and I think she's getting that.

I'm kind of surprised the mods haven't intervened yet. I woke up to 6 new pages and copyright drama was the last thing I was expecting.

You mean you didn't come to GoldenSkate for a crash course in international copyright law?

But yeah, like I said in one of my earliest posts, this boiled down to professional courtesy. Daniil publicly acknowledged his error and apologized so let's hope that's that.

The off-season drama out of Russia this summer isn't as spicy as last year's, gotta say.

Here's hoping Alina announces her actual competitive music soon so we'll have something new to argue about.

 

[Mathman]

But yeah, like I said in one of my earliest posts, this boiled down to professional courtesy. Daniil publicly acknowledged his error and apologized so let's hope that's that.

Agreed. All Daniil has to do is bill the program as "adapted for figure skating from the choreography of Jojo Gomez."

 

[Mathman]

Where are the mods?

We're paddling our kayak against a white water torrent as fast as we can, but like the Red Queen in Alice Through the Looking Glass, sometimes it takes all the running you can do just to stay in the same place.

 

[Reina del Hielo]

I just have one thing to say regarding this whole mess and it's in reference to a post from hours ago:

Those "Macarena guys" are not Mexican, they are from Spain

 

[Payako]

Yes, I agree. Khromykh is the weakest of the top 8. Well Tarusina is the weakest IMO but she lands everything everytime. I wasn't much a fan of Vasilieva earlier in the season, but she's improved her presentation and over the summer she could really change. I'm not wild over Sinitsina, and I have a feeling that Usacheva is going to do VERY well, she has the talent that Khromykh and Tarusina just don't have at this point. If Gubanova were to skate JGP, I'd have her as third ranked behind Valieva and Kanysheva, but why put her on JGP when she is Senior Reserve? I'm hoping Gubanova does two SeniorB's and gets her season's best scores there. Of course things will work themselves out at Test Skate. I do expect Valieva to try out her 4toe right off the bat. I also wouldn't be surprised if Kanysheva and Tarakanova attempt a quad at test skates too. So much talent....

Yes nastya is senior reserve.But we don't call skater a senior before GP debut.What I think of rusfed is they want Nastya to prove herself internationally.She could go to euros If she scrored fairly.(video 6:23)

https://youtu.be/tm-g-NW_OwU

While nastya seemed so dissapointed,coaches expected underscoring.And this time they could send her over sotskova,sackhanovich and konstantinova by not submitting them.They didn't.Then one way left for nastya to prove herself internationally.Stuck in domestic competitions and just getting season best at SeniorB's are not enough for proving herself.They submitted her last season(linz).Due to injury with boot issue she had to withdraw.She palnned to stay junior last season probably because of this.As rusfed still think she has to prove herself internationally, she is likely to go jgp.

 

[MMisMis]

Everyone in here has said he made a mistake, a miss judgment or worse. No one is letting him get away with anything. Even those in here that like Danill.

The question is now will this controversy cause Alina to lose faith in Danill? My guess is no but who knows.

This will make Alina angry at Jojo and possibly at the choreography. It's hard for me to explain logic, but it's true. :noshake:

But Eteri will probably be unhappy with Daniel because of the scandal.

 

[TallyT]

I just have one thing to say regarding this whole mess and it's in reference to a post from hours ago:

Those "Macarena guys" are not Mexican, they are from Spain

Thank you! Our similar priorities are clearly in the right order

 

[j00mla]

jojo has over 1mil on instagram while alina has 600k. i know alina seems super famous (and she is) but i think you might be underestimating how big some choreographers are. although i'd imagine most of jojo's fans are from north america not japan/russia

Not an argument. Adam Rippon has twice as many IG followers as Plushenko, which does not make him more successful in sports or business.

 

[hippomoomin]

Isn't using dance moves from dancers and singers very common in figure skating? I thought Evgenia's 7 things exhibition copied heavily from the MV of Ariana Grande, dance moves, hair and costume... Misha Ge has a exhibition in which he did the signature Gangnam Style dance movie.

 

[el henry]

Not an argument. Adam Rippon has twice as many IG followers as Plushenko, which does not make him more successful in sports or business.

The point of who has more IG followers is without a doubt a relevant argument.

The question is not “success”. The post was made in response to another post, about someone not knowing Jojo Gomez. So the question is who is more well known.

Jojo Gomez is without a doubt more well known in the USA than Alina Zagitova. Adam Rippon is without a doubt more well known than Evgeny Plushenko in the USA. Whatever her motivations, JoJo Gomez was not doing this to make a name for herself. She is already far more of a name. ETA: in the arena in which she works, for her own business purposes, than Alina.

I believe that was the point that is being made.

 

[karina17]

Isn't using dance moves from dancers and singers very common in figure skating? I thought Evgenia's 7 things exhibition copied heavily from the MV of Ariana Grande, dance moves, hair and costume... Misha Ge has a exhibition in which he did the signature Gangnam Style dance movie.

The difference is that if you copy from something widely known among the general public, they already know you're taking inspiration from there. Whereas if you copy a less known work of art, everyone is going to assume you are the creator of it. Everyone knows Misha Ge didn't create the Gangnam Style move because everyone knows where it's from.

If you are quoting a famous saying, it's normal to just say it in conversation without quoting the person who first said it, because everyone already knows you didn't come up with it. But if you're quoting an, I don't know, an online poetry piece or something, and you don't mention that you are quoting from someplace, then they would think you wrote it. That's the issue. Not that you are copying, but that you are copying without giving credit. When the original piece is famous enough, you don't bother to give credit because everyone already knows where it's from and will credit the original artist. A dance video is too niche and unknown to forgo credit. It's not to say that Daniil should not use Jojo Gomez's choreography, it's that he should not use it without crediting her in some way.

 

[el henry]

Isn't using dance moves from dancers and singers very common in figure skating? I thought Evgenia's 7 things exhibition copied heavily from the MV of Ariana Grande, dance moves, hair and costume... Misha Ge has a exhibition in which he did the signature Gangnam Style dance movie.

One move does not violate copyright.

Intellectual property law in the US is a very specialized field, and I would not begin to know all the details. But intellectual property (“copyright”) is something that, in US culture, is taken very seriously. Even in situations where “fair use” is allowed (for example parodies of “Weird Al” Yankovic) typically permissions are sought as a matter of courtesy and of caution.

 

[Tavi...]

Agreed. All Daniil has to do is bill the program as "adapted for figure skating from the choreography of Jojo Gomez."

I don’t want to derail the thread, but it’s not nearly that simple. You know how when you go into a store to buy or rent something, you pay the price set by the owner, or at least, a price negotiated with the owner? The same is true with copyright.

If you want to use a copyrighted work, with a few exceptions (which almost certainly wouldn’t apply here), you have to ask permission. If the copyright owner wants money, you will negotiate a license agreement. If the copyright owner decides all she wants you to do is credit her in some way, then that’s what you do. But you don’t get to unilaterally decide that’s what you’re going to do.

In this case, JoJo doesn’t seem to know much about copyright or have a lawyer advising her, so she may not sue him. But she could.

 

[TallyT]

The difference is that if you copy from something widely known among the general public, they already know you're taking inspiration from there. Whereas if you copy a less known work of art, everyone is going to assume you are the creator of it. Everyone knows Misha Ge didn't create the Gangnam Style move because everyone knows where it's from.

If you are quoting a famous saying, it's normal to just say it in conversation without quoting the person who first said it, because everyone already knows you didn't come up with it. But if you're quoting an, I don't know, an online poetry piece or something, and you don't mention that you are quoting from someplace, then they would think you wrote it. That's the issue. Not that you are copying, but that you are copying without giving credit. When the original piece is famous enough, you don't bother to give credit because everyone already knows where it's from and will credit the original artist. A dance video is too niche and unknown to forgo credit. It's not to say that Daniil should not use Jojo Gomez's choreography, it's that he should not use it without crediting her in some way.

A couple of musical examples are Hans Zimmer using 'Man with a Harmonica' (Morricone, siiiiggh...) in his score for Pirates of the Caribbean, and Elgar's 'Nimrod' in his Dunkirk score. Both cases it was done openly and intelligently for homage/echo effect, and full credit was given without music fans even having to point it out. No problem.

Or take the book Pride and Prejudice and Zombies (to be fair, they didn't even need to parody the Penguin cover of the Austen book, I can't believe anyone could miss it) Like Misha's Gangnam, nobody was under the impression that he invented it himself, just adapted and celebrated it.

The problem - and accusations of plagiarism - arises when the person copying either seeks or accepts the credit for the original creation and doesn't make it clear who the creator actually is (okay, and where legally justified asks permission and pays for it)