2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[colormyworld240]

This argument of artistry doesn't make senes to me. Sasha is not an ice princess, she is not elegant nor graceful. But why is there this belief that ladies' skating has to be those things? Sasha is powerful, strong and lively. I love that she doesn't fit into the cute dainty beautiful box that society always tries to shove young girls into - not that there's anything wrong with being beautiful and dainty if that's who you are. I think she does have artistry - she's not just fierce. In Big Spender, in the jazz parts, she's very playful, upbeat, and musical. Her unstoppable EX was powerful. Fifth Element showed her quirkiness and people who say she had no expression haven't seen the character of Leeloo. Kill Bill actually showed her vulnerability - you don't have to be princess to show that. She embodies the spirit of Daenerys in her power and her energy. Obviously she is not doing lyrical pieces that everyone loves because that's not her style. But that's also not the only style.

But in terms of scoring, none of the Russian ladies can match her (maybe Anna when she's perfect) when clean. She's more than 20+ points in BV above Alina, Alena, Evgenia, Sofia. Everyone seems to think her PCS is horrible - but even if she were to get 7s and the other girls 10s, that's 5 criteria and 3 points difference which is a difference of 15 points. She's still 5+ points ahead. That's generous too, because I don't think she's that much behind them in SS/TR, and I like her IN/PE but I get that's subjective. Coupled with the GOEs that she would get (because her jumps are better than a lot of the girls and her quads will get quad factoring in addition to being huge) and her spins being perfectly centred. Regardless of how you want to argue her PCS, she's come out on top if clean, fair and square. Something we should all keep in mind in the upcoming season - every time we want to argue PCS scoring, which is fine, just ask yourselves if that will make a difference in the overall standing of the Russian ladies. You might not like her style, but her BV is a huge advantage and it's not like her quads are the size of Sofia's triples, and that the other ladies' triples are the size of the Kolyada's quads.

 

[Finley]

Yes. Alina does have body posture issues, but still she gets the highest PCS. I don't think Daniil worries much if it doesn't show in the scores.
And double YES. Anna and her foot. It will be interesting to see what the judges will make of that this season, but I too find her "lazy foot" very distracting from otherwise excellent skating. It's indeed strange as I am certain she trains ballet a lot. She needs to point those toooeeess:hpull:

Yuna made it through her entire career without pointing her toes.

During a TSL interview with David Wilson, Dave asked him if there was anything in his career he regretted. "I'll never forgive myself for not getting Yuna to point her #$%%^& toes."

I think that some things are not as easy for skaters to fix as we think they are. Otherwise they would fix them. Some things may not be fixable at all. I remember a season when Dylan Moskovitch and Luba I. were getting dinged in their scores because it appeared he wasn't completely straightening his arm in their lifts. Someone pointed out he was one of the best lifters around and it was his physiology (that is probably not the right word) that made his arms look like that. That was just the way his arms looked when extended.

Like a gymnast with a naturally prominent arch in her back or well developed thighs creates a different line when performing the exact same skills as a gymnast that is built like Nastia Liukin.

None of this is to say people can't have opinions about skater's posture, toe-point, and whatever else. It's just something to consider.

 

[Jontor]

As the technical content for ladies has been rising recent years I was sure that the gap between TES and PCS had grown a lot.
I was wrong.

Nerdy as I am I checked out the top 10 at Worlds LP this year. Here is how they were scored TES in % of total score.

Zagitova 52,2% (TES 81,16 PCS 74,26)
Kihira 53,8% (TES 82,63 PCS 70,96)
Medvedeva 51,2% (TES 76,60 PCS 72,97)
Tursynbaeva 53,1% (TES 78,97 PCS 69,83)
Sakamoto 49,8% (TES 72,71 PCS 73,26)
Miyahara 51,7% (TES 75,18 PCS 70,17)
Tennell 52,6% (TES 75,69 PCS 68,28)
Samodurova 52,0% (TES 71,87 PCS 66,29)
Bell 50,5% (TES 69,15 PCS 67,66)
Lim 50,7% (TES 67,71 PCS 65,95)

Note how Tursynbaeva has the second highest TES percentage even though she missed a 3T. Had she landed that 3T...had her PCS gone up too?
Also, Sakamoto missed a 3F, and she is the only one who scores better with PCS

I thought the differences would be bigger...

 

[Finley]

This argument of artistry doesn't make senes to me. Sasha is not an ice princess, she is not elegant nor graceful. But why is there this belief that ladies' skating has to be those things? Sasha is powerful, strong and lively. I love that she doesn't fit into the cute dainty beautiful box that society always tries to shove young girls into - not that there's anything wrong with being beautiful and dainty if that's who you are. I think she does have artistry - she's not just fierce. In Big Spender, in the jazz parts, she's very playful, upbeat, and musical. Her unstoppable EX was powerful. Fifth Element showed her quirkiness and people who say she had no expression haven't seen the character of Leeloo. Kill Bill actually showed her vulnerability - you don't have to be princess to show that. She embodies the spirit of Daenerys in her power and her energy. Obviously she is not doing lyrical pieces that everyone loves because that's not her style. But that's also not the only style.

But in terms of scoring, none of the Russian ladies can match her (maybe Anna when she's perfect) when clean. She's more than 20+ points in BV above Alina, Alena, Evgenia, Sofia. Everyone seems to think her PCS is horrible - but even if she were to get 7s and the other girls 10s, that's 5 criteria and 3 points difference which is a difference of 15 points. She's still 5+ points ahead. That's generous too, because I don't think she's that much behind them in SS/TR, and I like her IN/PE but I get that's subjective. Coupled with the GOEs that she would get (because her jumps are better than a lot of the girls and her quads will get quad factoring in addition to being huge) and her spins being perfectly centred. Regardless of how you want to argue her PCS, she's come out on top if clean, fair and square. Something we should all keep in mind in the upcoming season - every time we want to argue PCS scoring, which is fine, just ask yourselves if that will make a difference in the overall standing of the Russian ladies. You might not like her style, but her BV is a huge advantage and it's not like her quads are the size of Sofia's triples, and that the other ladies' triples are the size of the Kolyada's quads.

This.

Dave said it would be a crime if they gave Sasha anything higher than 7s in PCS. Doug Haw's response - "Get ready. Because they are going to if she lands those jumps."

I swear I am not a TSL apologist. 90% of the time they drive me crazy with one thing or another. I just happened to agree with them in this case.

As an Alina fan, I'm planning to get very excited about the prospect of possible silver and bronze medals this season! :agree:

 

[Jontor]

Disclaimer - Ice is slippery and figure skating is unpredictable. The things you think will never happen.....happen.

And in comes Samodurova, winning the Euros last year:scratch3:

 

[Georgya]

Perhaps I do not understand the use of the word “gratuitous”?

I do not have time to list all the programs where in my opinion a mere quad adds nothing to the program. in fact, adding a quad just to show, look I can do a quad, with no connection to a program’s theme, is, for me, quite gratuitous.

I do agree it adds points:thumbsup:

I certainly understand that some folks love quads, and that’s fine. But some of us who have been sport of figure skating for 45 plus years do not find a quad, merely for the sake of doing a quad, exciting at all.

And that’s fine too

Please give an example, I don't want a list, just one example

If we are honest with each other, most of the time a poster here says a quad adds nothing to a program is like this:

-I love Rika (just an example) winning, if she does a quad is meaningfull to the program

-I don't like Trusova winning, if she does a quad or 3 they add nothing to the program

A well done quad always adds something to a program even if it's "only" points

 

[Tavi...]

I did not 'ignore' anything. Did you expect me to come up with a complete breakdown of her programs weighting all the negatives and positives against each other?
Of course she gets some things right, she is a skater on the elite level and one of the top women after all. But I can still expect her to be better at even more things and in more instances than she's showing us, especially given her position.

And btw, I'm not impressed with someone doing what are basically plain edge drills in the beginning of their program, I'm looking for a more complex use of skating skills. For instance, doing a clean loop amidst other steps and turns during a step sequence is more challenging, since you can't take your time like that because it's one element after the other in more or less quick succession.

And I honestly don't believe that the intro to her SP shows a noteworthy skill level, but it certainly looks like it was designed to give off this impression and I was just waiting for someone to point it out.
(Not saying that holding an edge like that or doing a clean, non-scratchy BI loop is trivial or that easy, not from the perspective of a beginner or lower level skater at least, but it should be for an elite skater who's at the top of her field)

Yes, if you’re going to give “constructive” criticism of a skater, I would expect your comments to be fair and balanced, and to acknowledge what the skater does well in addition to suggesting how she can improve.

I would also say that if doing a controlled series of edges and loops was all that easy for the majority of elite skaters, we’d see skaters looking for an easy way to raise their PCS including them in their programs by the boatload. But we don’t, do we? The truth is that just because a skill is basic and learned early on and can be performed in some fashion by beginners doesn’t mean it’s easy to fully master.

 

[nussnacker]

Someone put the original music of Liza's SP over her SP at Test Skates:
https://twitter.com/fs_is_my_life/status/1171395680532914176?s=20
What do you guys think?

I posted this yesterday and only mrrice noticed it :sad4:
I think it fits so much better to the original music! they should've kept it, her moves make me sense, she looks more dynamic and fast.
It was such a good program! We need to start a petition to get drumming song back :dev2:

 

[fabienne1996]

Please give an example, I don't want a list, just one example

If we are honest with each other, most of the time a poster here says a quad adds nothing to a program is like this:

-I love Rika (just an example) winning, if she does a quad is meaningfull to the program

-I don't like Trusova winning, if she does a quad or 3 they add nothing to the program

A well done quad always adds something to a program even if it's "only" points

Why exactly did you quote,me here? I just said that while Sasha has quads and it's amazing for me she is not portraying daenerys at least not in a way I can connect her to it at this point, which is not her fault , I wish Daniil had used some of daenerys iconic themes, like mysa , like dracarys, like dragonstone, winds of winter , reign, khaleesi, blood of my blood, dance of dragons, fire and blood , mother of dragons, there are literally so many songs to choose and they choosn2 songs that have nothing to do with daenerys? So yes at this point I am so not sold on this programm

 

[Jontor]

Why exactly did you quote,me here? I just said that while Sasha has quads and it's amazing for me she is not portraying daenerys at least not in a way I can connect her to it at this point, which is not her fault , I wish Daniil had used some of daenerys iconic themes, like mysa , like dracarys, like dragonstone, winds of winter , reign, khaleesi, blood of my blood, dance of dragons, fire and blood , mother of dragons, there are literally so many songs to choose and they choosn2 songs that have nothing to do with daenerys? So yes at this point I am so not sold on this programm

Oh come on. GoT is one of my fave series of all time, but still I don't even know what you're talking about. Expecting too much perhaps? You obviously have a very precise vision of how Daenerys should look like on ice...

 

[Mathman]

I thought the differences would be bigger...

The statistic "% of total segment score" is a little bit misleading. It takes a huge big whopping difference to move the needle very much off 50%.

Zagitova: TES 81.16, PCS 74.26. That is actually a pretty big difference, almost 7 points, more than an extra triple Lutz. But, as you calculate, that amounts to only a 52%-48% split of the total.

I think it is more instructive to express the TES in ratio to the PCS. Alina's TES is 9% higher than her PCS.

So I think that your intuition about TES gretly outpacing PCS is sound.

And in fact, Alina's TES score is higher than the highest possible PCS (80 for a ladies LP, with straight 10s from all judges in all components).

 

[Jontor]

The statistic "% of total segment score" is a little bit misleading. It takes a huge big whopping difference to move the needle very much off 50%.

Zagitova: TEc 81.16, PCS 74.26. That is actually a pretty big difference, almost 7 points, more than an extra triple Litz. But, as you calculate, that amounts to only a 52%-48% split of the total.

I think it is more instructive to express the TES in ratio to the PCS. Alina's TES is 9% higher than her PCS.

So I think that your intuition about TES gretly outpacing PCS is sound.

Great points MathGod. It's interesting with Alina's points, as you pointed out, that she has a huge advantage in TES, but still she got the highest PCS score of them all... So in a way she is the PCS queen as well...

Edit: With your way of describing TES vs PCS then the overall average result of the top 10 was that TES was +7% higher than PCS.

 

[Mathman]

... You obviously have a very precise vision of how Daenerys should look like on ice...

That is, how Daenerys would have looked on the ice when she was 15.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Sasha’s program is awesome and going to score really well when she hits. Had she done a more literal or even an exact GOT program I’m sure some people would point out all season long that her literal interpretation is cheap or hiding her (insert here) weakness. No point in trying to please them all. I’m glad she’s just doing her thing honestly.

I love the program and think she’s in a very good position to do well with it this year. I can’t wait to see where it takes her.

 

[mathlike]

Winners of JGP Chelyabinsk will be rewarded with artsy figurines representing female skater executing Biellmann spin, cast in local factory and projected by St. Petersburg artist who based his art on actual Denise's silhouette:
https://up74.ru/articles/news/113535/

 

[bubblecherry]

The problem with Sasha's GoT is that there's nothing really in it that indicates what she's skating to, except the music. There's no "theme" to the choreo, there's no sort of storytelling, or anything, really, that leads me to believe she's portraying Dany, or skating to a GoT program at all. Now, not every program done to a popular soundtrack needs to be a character program, it's just that Sasha could be skating that program to really any music (especially considering none of the [lack of] choreo really matches the music.) It's not really a 'Sasha' problem, it's not specific to any 'GoT' program, it's just the program really doesn't have any sort of artistic direction... Of course, people can and will still enjoy her skating, and they should, but I'm just trying to articulate why *some* people may be disappointed in the lack of portrayal

On the contrary, if you watched Alina skating her FS on mute, you maybe wouldn't guess it was Cleopatra themed, but you'd soon know that it's some sort of middle-eastern inspired music. The choreo she's doing is relevant to the music, relevant to the story she's telling, and it has a clear theme and direction.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

The problem with Sasha's GoT is that there's nothing really in it that indicates what she's skating to, except the music. There's no "theme" to the choreo, there's no sort of storytelling, or anything, really, that leads me to believe she's portraying Dany, or skating to a GoT program at all. Now, not every program done to a popular soundtrack needs to be a character program, it's just that Sasha could be skating that program to really any music (especially considering none of the [lack of] choreo really matches the music.) It's not really a 'Sasha' problem, it's not specific to any 'GoT' program, it's just the program really doesn't have any sort of artistic direction... Of course, people can and will still enjoy her skating, and they should, but I'm just trying to articulate why *some* people may be disappointed in the lack of portrayal

On the contrary, if you watched Alina skating her FS on mute, you maybe wouldn't guess it was Cleopatra themed, but you'd soon know that it's some sort of middle-eastern inspired music. The choreo she's doing is relevant to the music, relevant to the story she's telling, and it has a clear theme and direction.

Yeah I get that. I just see repetitive harping on her program and instead of engaging individuals about their preferences I just want to make a statement that I think it’s a good program. I couldn’t care less if it was an accurate portrayal of GoT or not. It puts her best moves and skating in the spotlight which TBH is the main reason I love watching her perform. I actually think the choreography is deceptively brilliant and balances her attack first approach with several subtle and tricky nuances in between.

She has a program that I think will put her in the discussion all season long as “one to beat”. You can’t really ask for more than that as a competitive skater.

 

[Lunalovesskating]

I posted this yesterday and only mrrice noticed it :sad4:
I think it fits so much better to the original music! they should've kept it, her moves make me sense, she looks more dynamic and fast.
It was such a good program! We need to start a petition to get drumming song back :dev2:

Oh really? I did not see it
Yes, it is so much better with the original music.

 

[Jontor]

Oh really? I did not see it
Yes, it is so much better with the original music.

Well, it is a better song. Everything is better with a better song.

 

[[email protected]]

...Sasha is not an ice princess...

But in terms of scoring, none of the Russian ladies can match her (maybe Anna when she's perfect) when clean. She's more than 20+ points in BV above Alina, Alena, Evgenia, Sofia. Everyone seems to think her PCS is horrible - but even if she were to get 7s and the other girls 10s, that's 5 criteria and 3 points difference which is a difference of 15 points. She's still 5+ points ahead. That's generous too, because I don't think she's that much behind them in SS/TR, and I like her IN/PE but I get that's subjective. Coupled with the GOEs that she would get (because her jumps are better than a lot of the girls and her quads will get quad factoring in addition to being huge) and her spins being perfectly centred. Regardless of how you want to argue her PCS, she's come out on top if clean, fair and square. Something we should all keep in mind in the upcoming season - every time we want to argue PCS scoring, which is fine, just ask yourselves if that will make a difference in the overall standing of the Russian ladies. You might not like her style, but her BV is a huge advantage and it's not like her quads are the size of Sofia's triples, and that the other ladies' triples are the size of the Kolyada's quads.

I think that Alina's combined GOE will be higher. My take is that Alina will start free program with about 7 point margin after the short program (something like 82 vs. 75) If Sasha lands 3 clean quads she will have about 20 point BV advantage. She will lose about 6 points in pcs (68 vs. 74) and 2 points in GOE (15 vs. 17). She will win about 5 points. But if she falls on a quad or a combo and Alina is clean then it is possible that she is going to lose.