2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Edwin]

No, it is all about preventing the discrimination of these revolutionary young senior skaters from #TeamTutberidzeForProgress against judging conventions that ruled the sport for decades.

All of Kostornaya, Shcherbakova and Trusova enter the 'big sports arena' with accomplishments of the highest order -in the juniors-, with programs of such a level of mastery and artistry, unattainable by 99.9% of their senior competitors, one can even sort of understand this defensive mechanism.

By some stupid traditional rule that newcomers 'don't deserve their scores', 'need to be kept down in the interest of the established order', 'first have to prove themselves to protect the older skaters' etc. and more of such discriminatory nonsense that is completely unfounded, not written in any ISU rule, yet still prevails over objectivity.

I can fully understand the outrage over what happened in Lombardia SP, and hope it won't happen again when Trusova and Kostornaya have their first starts in the seniors. There were other blogs much more explicit and also very critical over Mishin's presumed 'connections' with the LOC of Lombardia.

PS: Here is Elucidus' blog on the 'underrotation' of Shcherbakova's SP: https://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/elucidus/2574522.html which is an extension to this other blog: https://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/ontheice/2574239.html
Elucidus already made his position on this matter clear in his postings here.

Let's hope after judges' evaluation this proved to be a human error of judgement, those things can and do happen in judged sports. One can be certain judging will be followed with great scrutiny over the next events.

 

[andromache]

Double standards are also very strange when one seriously talks about Kostornaya’s divine skating, which should receive high components, while at the same time trying to convince everyone that Shcherbakova and Trusova, who together with her are going into seniors, have not earned anything yet. How then to get Kostornaya high components? She just didn’t deserve them either. Same 'yesterday's junior'.

This is pretty stupid. Kostornaia has always had vastly superior skating skills to Shcherbakova and Trusova. It is absolutely possible for one skater to be much more mature than others. Isn't it possible that Shcherbakova and Trusova are indeed "juniorish" and that Kostornaia is not? That is not a double standard. That is an opinion that some may have, and it's a fair one. I do not personally find Shcherbakova and Trusova to be very juniorish and they both probably deserve higher PCS than Liza most of the time in most categories, but I do think Kostornaia is better and more mature than any other lady competing today, in large part due to her skating skills. Skating skills are Shcherbakova's only weak point. Otherwise, she is extremely strong artistically. I am personally a huge fan of her LP this season.

I also notice that Shelepen focuses exclusively on "connections" or transitions. IMO, there is more to PCS than that. Transitions are one category. There are 4 other categories by which to judge PCS.

I also want to note that Zhenya was not condemned in 2016 because 1. She did receive lower PCS than Ashley Wagner. If she had received higher PCS than Ashley, maybe people would've been mad. And 2. Zhenya won by a large margin on TES, which no one could really argue with. She did not win on PCS, and everyone was fine with it.

Not to mention that PCS tend to build over the course of the season, especially for first-year seniors. This was Anna's first senior competition. By Worlds, if she is on the team, she will probably have some of the highest PCS in the world. In 2015 at the beginning of the season when Zhenya was a first-year senior, she received lower PCS than Gracie Gold, Satoko Miyahara, and Yulia at Skate America even when those skaters made mistakes and Zhenya did not. Comparing PCS at Anna's first senior competition with Zhenya's 2016 Worlds PCS is not really helpful.

As for the 3F-3Lo, I also think it was fully rotated and the tech panel made a bad call. However, the tech panel is not always right. We know this. They have ignored URs from Russian ladies in the past as well. Sometimes the incorrect calls will help a skater and sometimes it will hurt them. This is just unfortunately part of the sport. I think continuing to make a huge deal out of an incorrect tech call at a senior B is ridiculous, especially when it did not affect the results. Anna still won the competition!!!

 

[VenusHalley]

But if there are other ladies with 3A competing against Trustova and Kostnornya.... yeah, they may not be leading after SP. Kosto... she may not even win after long program. Isn't she competing against Alina?

Will there be outrage? They cannot be given automatic win in every segment just because they are Russian and from Team Tutberitze.

Scherbakova managed to win on her own, by skill and talent. If she continues like this and gets more selfconfident in her skating, PCS will grow.


It's not discrimination saying that some parts of PCS like interpretation and performance get better with age. I haven't encountered a case where skater would peak at 15 in their PCS mark and then regress (unless there are injuries and possibly mental problems). Alina, Zhenya, 3As... they are better today at the nontechnical skills than when they came out. Even Liza is, in her own ways. Kostner was the best and most enjoyable in her last few seasons.

It used to be normal, that skaters had to do few seasons, before getting the big marks and big medals. Because some things take time and certain amount of maturing.

 

[Edwin]

It used to be normal, that skaters had to do few seasons, before getting the big marks and big medals. Because some things take time and certain amount of maturing.

Only fine wines, liquors, brandies, whiskey's, cheeses and hams mature with age .... These girls debut with top grade skills and top notch choreography and interpretation of the music. Trusova by skill level alone will almost certainly rip any competition apart, she by herself is a category of her own. We'll see next week in Bratislava how her senior debut unfolds. These minor challenger events only serve the purpose to establish the 'pecking order', one assumes in the GP stages there will be more experienced judges with a higher ranking.

 

[VenusHalley]

Only fine wines, liquors, brandies, whiskey's, cheeses and hams mature with age .... These girls debut with top grade skills and top notch choreography and interpretation of the music. Trusova by skill level alone will almost certainly rip any competition apart, she by herself is a category of her own. We'll see next week in Bratislava how her senior debut unfolds. These minor challenger events only serve the purpose to establish the 'pecking order', one assumes in the GP stages there will be more experienced judges with a higher ranking.

So are you saying they will just stagnate from now on?

 

[andromache]

Only fine wines, liquors, brandies, whiskey's, cheeses and hams mature with age .... These girls debut with top grade skills and top notch choreography and interpretation of the music. Trusova by skill level alone will almost certainly rip any competition apart, she by herself is a category of her own. We'll see next week in Bratislava how her senior debut unfolds. These minor challenger events only serve the purpose to establish the 'pecking order', one assumes in the GP stages there will be more experienced judges with a higher ranking.

This is ridiculous. Do you truly think that these girls have already peaked? Yes, they are excellent. But musical interpretation and performance ability definitely improve with experience! They have already improved so much since last year.

Funny that you mention Trusova as being able to "rip any competition apart" - while I agree that I think she will be unbeatable this season unless she makes to many mistakes, that will be on TES. Her interpretation and performance are on the weaker side, especially in the LP when she is very focused on the difficult jumps.

 

[LynsJ]

Anna is a fantastically skilled skater but I have to agree that her skating skills look juniorish. I have no doubt in my mind her scores will improve but I have to say I hope the pc scores are realistic. Kostornaia is just something special. Her skating is so smooth and effortless looking. It’s just the age old argument of TES vs PCS. Everyone will have their preference

 

[flanker]

This is ridiculous. Do you truly think that these girls have already peaked? Yes, they are excellent. But musical interpretation and performance ability definitely improve with experience! They have already improved so much since last year.

It's Eteri who says "there is always a room for improvement." These girls will definitely be better with more experience (not only sport experience but life experience as a whole), yet even on this level they are better than most seasoned adult skaters.

But that's not the question. What raised the wave of dissapproval was that Liza with her completely empty program and zero movements apart from those directly related to technical elements received the same PCS as Anna.

 

[Edwin]

So are you saying they will just stagnate from now on?

LOL, no of course. They will evolve, find new directions for themselves, new images they want to explore come next season. I just wanted to say that for debut programs, you'll hardly find better provided skaters, wether you like the maturity, image, music, costume or not.
As the skaters grow more confident and experience in performing their routines, they might get better still. But ranking them below certain other skaters with even to the untrained eye lesser skills and levels of artistry, just because they are young, new or from a certain rink is not according to the spirit of sports, where the best athletes that very day of competition should win.

In the end it turned out OK for Shcherbakova after all, but I'd like to know what happened behind the scenes there in Lombardia, how the judges briefing went ;-)

This is ridiculous. Do you truly think that these girls have already peaked? Yes, they are excellent. But musical interpretation and performance ability definitely improve with experience! They have already improved so much since last year.

Funny that you mention Trusova as being able to "rip any competition apart" - while I agree that I think she will be unbeatable this season unless she makes to many mistakes, that will be on TES. Her interpretation and performance are on the weaker side, especially in the LP when she is very focused on the difficult jumps.

We'll see TES vs PCS will always be a dilemma when you break the bounds of conventions, as Trusova does. Interpretation and performance are difficult to objectify, micro managing the rules will only make it more difficult and prone to misinterpretation.

 

[Tolstoj]

What is different, though,what makes this season special is that traditional lines do not work like before.

1. Eteri is only good with pre-puberty girls. Alina is clearly past puberty now. What is left is to say that Alina "is done". But it looks like it's not the case at least for this season.

2. Eteri's pupils skate too juniorish This one - "sonograms" - is still here. However, no matter how some people try to push the idea that "what about" is a wrong philosophical platform I don't agree. "What about?" is a very relevant concept because there are few absolute things in this world. And to get the flavor of reality we have to compare. Then, what about Alysa Liu, the senior US champion? This one makes a lot of people see things in perspective. Including Ashley Wagner who seems to be quite protective about Alysa and does not attach labels to her like she did with young Russians.

3. Eteri makes them jump quads and this is bad for young bodies Alysa is the only real non-Russian contender among the juniors and Rika is the only real non-Russian contender among senior skaters. Both either have quads or plan to introduce them. Both have quite young bodies. The argument that only Eteri's students bodies are affected by quads will be too wild even for the most decorated critics.

I am sure that critics will never stop. However, traditional arguments won't sound as "convincing" as before, hence, there will be subtler ones. Like "Valieva is overdoing her spins". Anyway, we shall have a lot of fun in this thread.

- - - Updated - - -



You cannot compare. Last year summer was just about Medvedeva's going to Orser.

I'd say some of those criticisms were deserved in the past, but they don't take into consideration that Eteri does adapt and they are good at correcting the mistakes with the future generations.

For instance Medvedeva, Lipnitskaya all had a bad axel technique, now Valieva, Usacheva and Khromykh have a 2a so big and long that they are all three ready to learn triple axel.

With Alina they have been smart, after the Olympics they started to ease the technical contents with a layout she is more comfortable instead of maximizing the TES, since she will get the marks as Olympic Champions anyway as long as she stays clean.

I was also happy to see some of her jumps looking better at the Test Skates, cause after Europeans 2019 some of those needed some serious rework and i was worried they were going to ignore that.

Though if i have to play devil's advocate, i do wonder if all these attentions they're giving to Zagitova are there only to make sure all their skaters are better than Medvedeva. :dev2:

 

[Nogagolova]

Anna Tarusina - https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...hot-www.instagram.com-2019.09.15-23_02_03.png

 

[VenusHalley]

I think Eteri is learning from her mistakes. After Alina had two bad outings at RusNats and then Europeans (bad for her standards), instead of usual million trillion reruns, Alina got bit of break, instead of videos of jumping "quads" in harness she got to skate with her dog... And it worked for Alina. It seems they tried to fit Trusova in the pretty skating mold her first junior season (wearing dresses and skating to classical music... or Big Spender), but then they realized maybe let's just let her skate to movie soundtracks about *strong* chicks.

So I am willing to give Eteri that.

It will be interesting though how she handles several top ladies, especially should one of them struggle.

 

[Blacknight]

This is ridiculous. Do you truly think that these girls have already peaked? Yes, they are excellent. But musical interpretation and performance ability definitely improve with experience! They have already improved so much since last year.

Funny that you mention Trusova as being able to "rip any competition apart" - while I agree that I think she will be unbeatable this season unless she makes to many mistakes, that will be on TES. Her interpretation and performance are on the weaker side, especially in the LP when she is very focused on the difficult jumps.

Medvedeva looks more slow and more focused on the simple jumps than trusova on her quads. Interpretation and performance absolutely comparable. What about pcs)

 

[andromache]

It's Eteri who says "there is always a room for improvement." These girls will definitely be better with more experience (not only sport experience but life experience as a whole), yet even on this level they are better than most seasoned adult skaters.

But that's not the question. What raised the wave of dissapproval was that Liza with her completely empty program and zero movements apart from those directly related to technical elements received the same PCS as Anna.

But we all know that reputation (unfortunately) matters. This is the case for all skaters in all disciplines. Liza is a veteran and this was Anna's first senior competition. But over the course of a debut season, new seniors are usually are able to build up a reputation to get equal or higher PCS than the veterans. This happens every year. I have never before seen so much outrage about it. It is likely that Alina will receive significantly higher PCS than Kostornaia, even if Kostornaia has better skating skills and speed, because Alina has the reputation and is a veteran.

We should also try to take into account factors that we cannot see through our screens. Experienced performers like Liza can have a "presence" or charisma that draws the viewer in. Anna is very charismatic, but she doesn't have the years of experience that Liza does. I'm also curious how their speed/ice coverage look in person. Liza has fairly weak SS, and so does Anna (IMO). Maybe Anna's transitions slow her down in comparison to Liza? It's hard to say. I am just suggesting possibilities - not concluding one way or another. I love Liza, but I am certainly no fan of her empty choreography and two-foot skating. And I think that Anna probably deserved higher PCS than Liza, at least from what I saw through my screen. It is likely that Liza was given the veteran advantage, as most veteran skaters from top federations get.

 

[Tolstoj]

Anna Tarusina - https://image.prntscr.com/image/1IEsKCvwRsaMe_2YNL_FNg.png

It says: 403 - Forbidden

 

[andromache]

Medvedevla looks more slow and more focused on the simple jumps than trusova on her quads. Interpretation and performance absolutely comparable. What about pcs)

I think Zhenya does a much better job of expressing her music and performing that Trusova does, at least in the LP. I thought Trusova's LP at test skates looked like a jumping drill - I didn't really see her projecting the character of Daenerys (or any character) at all. Trusova is extremely fast though, which is an advantage over Zhenya, and I do think that Trusova will get better at projecting once she gets more used to the program.

To me, Zhenya is the best in the world at expressing/projecting her character or the emotions of the music. She draws you in to feel the emotions of the program through the emotions she expresses throughout. That is part of PCS, but not all of it.

 

[Edwin]

Anna Tarusina - https://image.prntscr.com/image/1IEsKCvwRsaMe_2YNL_FNg.png

Too bad, would've loved to see her get a chance in her final junior year.

What are her options now, providing she is back to full strength in a few weeks?

 

[flanker]

But we all know that reputation (unfortunately) matters. This is the case for all skaters in all disciplines. Liza is a veteran and this was Anna's first senior competition. But over the course of a debut season, new seniors are usually are able to build up a reputation to get equal or higher PCS than the veterans. This happens every year. I have never before seen so much outrage about it. It is likely that Alina will receive significantly higher PCS than Kostornaia, even if Kostornaia has better skating skills and speed, because Alina has the reputation and is a veteran.

We should also try to take into account factors that we cannot see through our screens. Experienced performers like Liza can have a "presence" or charisma that draws the viewer in. Anna is very charismatic, but she doesn't have the years of experience that Liza does. I'm also curious how their speed/ice coverage look in person. Liza has fairly weak SS, and so does Anna (IMO). Maybe Anna's transitions slow her down in comparison to Liza? It's hard to say. I am just suggesting possibilities - not concluding one way or another. I love Liza, but I am certainly no fan of her empty choreography and two-foot skating. And I think that Anna probably deserved higher PCS than Liza, at least from what I saw through my screen. It is likely that Liza was given the veteran advantage, as most veteran skaters from top federations get.

If I can rely on friends who saw Anna and Sasha on world juniors. According to them from the first moment they stepped on the ice it was clear they are totally above the rest and not because of jumps but because all their movement on the ice, it was (according to them) much more obvious than from the screen.

As for Liza. I liked how she performed on test skates a week ago. But in comparison to that her competition performance in Italy was rather like just an average rehearsal.

 

[*~RussianBleux~*]

Too bad, would've loved to see her get a chance in her final junior year.

What are her options now, providing she is back to full strength in a few weeks?

Could you translate what she said?

 

[Edwin]

Anways, the pairings of new and veteran skaters should make for an interesting comparison over the course of the GP series: http://www.isuresults.com/events/gp2019/gpsladies.htm

They seem very strategically paired at the moment, but of course subject to change and visa problems.
Shcherbakova <-> Tuktamysheva
Medvyedeva <-> Trusova
Kostornaya <-> Zagitova is perhaps the most cruel pairing, IMO both are equally qualified to make GPF

Will be interesting to see how the judging panels rank the skaters in both their stages.