2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[neud]

The levels are about the number of different kinds of turns and steps that must be completed.

Do you think Trusova (and almost everybody at Skate Canada) is unable to complete Kyarha VAN TIEL steps and turns number? Yeah...

 

[el henry]

At WC2019 Kyarha VAN TIEL (Personal Best 139.56), who was on the 40th (last) place after SP, has StSq4 in her SP
Watch it - video.
I don't think that StSq is better than Trusova's.
So I don't believe this levels reflect any reality.

StSeq scores for Sasha at SC do reflect reality IMO. But this is why we can’t compare scores from comp to comp, the pure numbers are not good comparators.

Also, I apologize if I missed it, did you answer my post where I asked you about the screenshot? Someone else had an explanation that I found very disappointing, so I would like to know, since you posted it, if you have another one. thanks!

 

[*~RussianBleux~*]

Do you think Trusova is unable to complete Kyarha VAN TIEL steps and turns number? Yeah...

Do you think Trusova is incapable of making mistakes on her elements? Oh wait, I just checked the title of the thread so of course you do! The StSq is an element just like jumps. Sometimes there is a loss of concentration and the skater makes a mistake, they’re rushing and they miss a turn, something isn’t completed in full etc. I mean even Nathan Chen got Vs on his combination spins at Skate America whereas Alex Krasnozhon who finished in 9th place received Level 4s on his.

 

[andromache]

Do you think Trusova is incapable of making mistakes on her elements? Oh wait, I just checked the title of the thread so of course you do! The StSq is an element just like jumps. Sometimes there is a loss of concentration and the skater makes a mistake, they’re rushing and they miss a turn, something isn’t completed in full etc. I mean even Nathan Chen got Vs on his combination spins at Skate America whereas Alex Krasnozhon who finished in 9th place received Level 4s on his.

It's worth noting that this was also an extremely strict panel on the StSq. Just like panels can be lenient or strict on jump rotations, the same is apparently true for step sequences. Very few ladies received level 4.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I have not invested time into looking at Yuzuru's StSq. I have into Trusova's. I had on my big screen side by side performances Nepela-Canada at 0.25 speed. I did not see any difference. And with everything that we know about judging in figure skating I simply don't believe that those superhuman tech people in Canada in real time saw such significant differences in her steps in Canada from Nepela that they cost full fat 2 levels - the differences that I did not see at 0.25. And those super humans did not need any reviews because level 2 appeared within a second after her sequence ended.

But my point was different. Having in mind this level 2 you already started to build theories like she got tired and could not deliver. Because you like myself do not believe that Eteri and Daniil devised for their top student level 2 steps. But the thing is it was during the short program where she apparently was not tired and where she visibly delivered the planned content.

Ok, i watched both her StSq performances closely. In my opinion, which is not the best you can get, but still can be accurate, her steps should be called as Level 3 in both competitions. Now, i cant measure some aspects without judges review and their knoweldge of seing that many steps live, but i quess in one competition judges 'saw' more and in the other less. It happens. However, having more or less levels on steps doesnt determine your GOE on steps or skating skills mark, so it can rarely change the final outcome (unless you are competing in ice dance where there is more steps to perform).

 

[[email protected]]

Are you a trained technical specialist for the ISU?

No, but you clearly missed the point. I am not lazy to repeat it.

I have no idea if her steps were level 2 or level 4. The rules for StSq are quite complicated. But:

1. Eteri and Daniil are very competent people. They have a long track record developing StSq for many of their students who continuously received level 4. Alina in her first senior year kept DQ as a free program, however, the steps were different. Daniil boasted that level 4 requirements were met well before the StSq finished. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that for Trusova they developed anything but level 4 at least they thought it was level 4 and I am sure that they are much more knowledgeable than you and me and, may be, even than "trained technical specialists".

2. Saying that, they might have developed level 4 but Sasha delivered only level 2 that's why "trained technical specialists" took off 2 levels. And the reason is that Sasha was very tired after quads. Wait a minute, she could not be very tired after quads because it was a short program without quads. OK, she was not tired but her skating skills are not that good so that she made some mistakes and lost 2 levels. Full stop.

3. Not really. I am not a trained technical specialist for the ISU. Because of that if I watch some random StSq I can "set" its level only emotionally and I can miss the rules big time. But I am quite good at pattern recognition and watching in parallel 2 performances in slow motion I can quite surely say if the movements are the same or not. Sasha's StSq performances at Nepela and Skate Canada were basically identical and should have received the same level, level 2, level 4, I cannot say but the same. What I could miss are very minor details which are covered by a thing called "grade of execution" rather than level. They did not. And that's the reason for me to strongly oppose ideas of increasing the value of StSq in technical score because it will increase the level of subjectivity. And I want the judging be more objective up to replacing human tech controllers by robots.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

The requirements of StSq changed in 4th feature. I'm not saying that Eteri didn't disagned Level 4 for Sasha, but i don't think Sasha met that 4th feature in those two competitions. But i don't agree her steps should be necesseraly called Level 2 too, so...

 

[Elana]

Just of note, it’s not so easy to get lvl4 on steps no matter who you are. You can have as many turns and steps as you want and execute them perfectly, but if you don’t complete one of your clusters properly you are already at a level 3. With the clusters you have to do 3 turns in a row, which is relatively easy, but it’s a lot of edge changes in a row which allows for easy mistakes. And even if you nail the turns, if you don’t have proper cadence you don’t get credit for the cluster, so down to a 3. If clusters on both feet are missed then it’s a 2, even if the rest of the sequence is complicated and executed. When I competed, my right foot cluster was always weaker and would cause me to get level 3s because I could do the turns just fine but often didn’t have the correct rhythm. It’s little things like that, that you might not realize that can easily knock off a level.

 

[tempo]

Cup of Sankt-Petersburg, stage 2.
Ladies SP, KMS rank.

Live stream at 11:00 msk (4 hours countdown):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83OV-Uz4RMs

 

[Arbitrary]

All the ZAG-vs-MED talking based on the result of Olympics. The wouldn't be any horn locked if the Gold and Silver were awarded "fairly".
The life is unfair.
MED recovered after a not so minor trauma. ZAG just delivered. The color of the medal changed.

So MED decided to continue. Unfortunately there are a lot on fresh youngsters with much more priced content.

When judges check the list of elements for FS they see someone's backloaded 2A2T2T combo. Checking otherone Daredevil's they see 4T3S combo. Ok, let us see the delivery results.... Both delivered? A pity.

You may do 222 combo for +5 GOE but it will never stand against zero GOE of the high end.
You will be never placed above except when the Daredevil crashed totally...

Sometimes to win you require others to help. But it's highly unlikely all the others will do it simultaneously and at the proper time.
Hanyu was lucky in Sochi. Or he was the real hero and continues to be. Depends on a point of view.

 

[prorussian fan]

Sorry, I disagree, especially on the highlighted points.

I'm going to split this post into more factual stuff and stuff that's more my interpretation, so, here we go.

First, let it be said that I don't agree with all of Brian's decisions either. Putting three lutzes in the programs for the second year in a row hoping she would not get called is pretty naive. The spins are also an issue that need fixing and more time spent on them. I also think he kind of underestimated the internal competition in Russia and the pressure Zhenya would face.

However, I do think that Zhenya is objectively a better skater than she was during the Olympic season. Why? Well, I will not disagree that she is not as consistent now. This is kind of obvious. However, consistency makes a good competitor, it doesn't necessarily make a good skater. And Zhenya's skating quality has improved a lot. If one can't see that, I'm sorry but I can't help them. In short: Her jumps have better height, flow and ease when she's in the right mindset for competition. Her skating skills are also vastly different. Olympic Zhenya was quite literally, dragging herself across the ice with shallow turns and low speed. Zhenya now has speed, flow and deep edges. There's a reason she was one of the few to earn level four on her steps in both SP and FS at SCI when most of her biggest competitors didn't. And as much as some want to believe it, it is not the judges being biased against some of the others who got level 2. Of course skating skills and step sequences aren't exactly the same and it's possible to miss a level even with some of the best skating skills in the world (e.g. Hanyu in the SP) when you miss a turn or something. But it is at least an example that can generally be made: looking at Zhenya's step sequences now to the ones she had in the Olympic season, the difference should be clear.

That's for her improvements. Of course it is obvious that she needs to find her consistency again and fix the spin issues. I'm worried about that as well. But I think many underestimate the pressure she's been facing for a year now and what happened even before that. Will she make the team if she keeps skating like she does now? No. But considering that even Alina will need to fight for her spot on the team, Olympic year Zhenya wouldn't have had any chance either.

Now onto the other stuff:

Olympic Zhenya was quite seriously injured. She didn't skate for months before she came to Orser. In general, there are a lot of things regarding her body and overall health that make me suspect that she would not only have deteriorated under Eteri but maybe been plagued with even more serious injuries. I don't have any proof for that argument but neither did you for most of the points you made, so whatever, I guess.

Zhenya's back injury: Considering that Tursynbaeva, with a quite dangerous back injury that has forced her to miss both of her GP events now, was doing biellmanns in both (!!) of her programs at Shanghai Trophy, I suspect that Zhenya's body would have broken down even further if she had continued to train the way she had.

Besides the physical injuries, there is also the mental aspect that comes into play. I think it's quite obvious that while Zhenya and Alina have nothing but respect for each other as competitors, it might also have been awkward for the two of them to continue to train with each other every day. Especially for Zhenya. Zhenya also seemed to be quite in a melancholic, sad mood after the OG, she looked stressed out and unhappy. Going to Canada provided her with a different experience, a new path in life and new people. After the traumatic experience that was the Olympic season, that's what she needed and she has said similar things herself.

There is something else about the jumping technique. Tracy made an interesting point there when she said that, during the SCI SP Zhenya tried to go back to her old mentality and thus tried to jump the way she did before as well, which meant twisting her upper body into the jumps. (which is pretty bad for the back btw) She said she'd done that when she was considerably younger and smaller but that it doesn't work for her body anymore because now she has to jump from her legs. With Zhenya's painful fall on the lutz in mind, I'm pretty glad she tried to change her jump technique. At least she's still able to compete now...

The last point is both physical and mental stuff: Zhenya's health and body were quite different with Eteri and Orser, let's put it like that. I would not like to rehearse this stuff again but reading the interview about her issues with eating and her confidence, especially after the Olympics, should be concerning. Zhenya's got a nutritionist now and let's just say, good for her. Because I don't want to imagine what further years of the training/food regime she had would have done to an adult body.

__
I know many will disagree here. That's okay. I can also see when some are concerned because the mental issues are still there as shown in the SP. Believe me, I was and am as well. I think Zhenya and Brian will have to have a serious talk about future plans and how they're going to address the later half of the season. However, as much as it looks like Zhenya won't make the team now, it would have been the same with Eteri or any other trainer. Let's face it, Zhenya is 19. Any changes or improvements she will make will take more time. It will take her longer to learn new jumps/combos, it will take longer to change the technique. It's just the way it is. I personally find it admirable that she tries at least. There's no guarantee that she will ever make a Worlds team again. But we can't know that yet and neither can she. The only thing she can do is continue to work and try her best to heal and fix the mental issues she's been having. This will, whether we like it or not, take time and maybe help from professionals. Competing as an adult is different from competing as a child. Zhenya will need mainly need to find out with which mindset to go into competitions. The mental aspect is the biggest challenge right now. Her scores are not that bad. 209 with a bombed SP? She would have been capable of way more had she skated cleanly. And it's still a higher score than Liza got at her GP and she had 3 3As there. So, not that bad. Might not be enough to catch the 3A but then again, she would need ultra c elements for that anyway. The main problem to solve for her and her team is her consistency and her mindset. And that wouldn't have been better with Eteri either because as we've seen from Yulia - staying in an environment if it makes you unhappy and uncomfortable will not make you win again. In fact, it will do quite the opposite.

Sincerely, what Evgenia could say to justify her exit from the Eteri group? That her diet was bad, that she was plagued with injuries. I think that is a defense strategy or mechanism to justify moving to Canada. The point is that it was not nor will it be nor will it have the success it had with Eteri. And it is unfortunate.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

All of the reactions to Sasha’s senior debut on the GP (and ensuing threads) has been really juicy

 

[starla16]

always the thread ends with Med, I guess thats how shes still relevant and in the mix.

 

[zounger]

All of the reactions to Sasha’s senior debut on the GP (and ensuing threads) has been really juicy

She is powerful, squeezes all the juice out of people

 

[voolfee]

All the ZAG-vs-MED talking based on the result of Olympics. The wouldn't be any horn locked if the Gold and Silver were awarded "fairly".

I partly agree with you. If Med received her well-deserved bronze and Osmond her well-deserved silver, then none of this would have happened.

 

[Arbitrary]

I partly agree with you. If Med received her well-deserved bronze and Osmond her well-deserved silver, then none of this would have happened.

This is just another "fair" point of view. Unfortunately the scores "were awarded" and not "will be awarded"...

 

[Kittosuni]

Question:

WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED to ZHENYA'S SPINS?

its not even about the positions she changed to preserve her back( I think that was smart) on those spins but it is how rushed, incomplete number of turns and just over all unstable.

It deteriorated so badly that whenever she gets a level 4 I even question it.

Am I the only one noticing this?

 

[Alex65]

Are you a trained technical specialist for the ISU?

I like this. The best answer to any opponent in any situation. :thumbsup: Convincing and versatile. No offense.

 

[Fluture]

Sincerely, what Evgenia could say to justify her exit from the Eteri group? That her diet was bad, that she was plagued with injuries. I think that is a defense strategy or mechanism to justify moving to Canada. The point is that it was not nor will it be nor will it have the success it had with Eteri. And it is unfortunate.

Actually, what people don’t seem to understand is that she doesn’t have to justify her leaving at all. She wants to leave, she leaves. Easy as that. Has happened countless of times before with coaches and students. She did give her reasons and I found them logical. Others might not feel the same. But in the end she doesn’t need any “defense strategies“. She’s a free, adult human being and she certainly doesn’t need our permission what to do with her life.

As for her success.. Well, she’s never going to be as dominant as she was in her first two years with Eteri, true that. But her dominance had ended already with Eteri anyway, so I can live with that. As for the rest... well have to disagree.

I partly agree with you. If Med received her well-deserved bronze and Osmond her well-deserved silver, then none of this would have happened.

Sure. And Miyahara should have won the whole thing, I suppose?

Nah, seriously, can we leave the Olympics discussion aside now? It’s been long enough. Judges decided.

 

[Edwin]

Medvyedeva took her fate into her own hands, for better or for worse.

That’s still sort of uncommon in Russia, where you’re supposed to stay at your station in society, obey your superiors.

So kudos to her for breaking free from this tradition. And strength and wisdom in dealing with all the negativity this decision brought forth, even to this day.

She probably knows she is living on borrowed time, but still tries to make the best out of it.

One can only imagine how much mental energy this requires, so far away from home, family and friends.