2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Mishaminion]

Negative.

Lol! That clip made me giggle (and almost inhale vodka through my nose)

 

[el henry]

Interesting and very well explained. But some people are still going to want to debate you on this.

Not debate.

I tried discrimination cases for a living. These numbers would not be legally sufficient statistics to prove discrimination in a courtroom. I do not have time, or frankly, the interest, to outline how they would fail, but they would.

I don’t care enough about who wins IdF ladies or what their scores are to debate the scoring, but I have a slight professional interest in the use of the word statistics in conjunction with discrimination.

 

[Mishaminion]

So nervous for Alyona, bless her she's got so much pressure on her shoulders.

Alina I'm not so worried about, she's experienced and already been through what her teammate is going through right now.

Would love to see Maria skate well also but... sadly I fear it will be more of the same. I really feel for her

 

[el henry]

Negative.

I have absolutely no idea what “would you like to talk to a human” means? What are you trying to say?

 

[Finley]

I underlined the bias and a valid explanation for why your conspiracy theory exists.

Using Russian sites as proof of a conspiracy against Russians is like using anti-semitic sites to claim Jews are evil.

This statement strikes me as extremely unfair and I believe the comparison doesn't read the way you intended. You have every right to believe that Russian opinions are influenced by their bias toward their own skaters (just like anyone's might be). But to dismiss them all on that basis is unfair. To equate them with extremists is just wrong, in my opinion.

 

[Fluture]

Aliona is younger and with not so much experience yet. In comparison with Alina, who wasn't considered "talent itself" for a very long time, everything went well for her..

Actually, that‘s not true, according to Aliona‘s own words at least.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B3nNzSHJ2eQ/?igshid=owycazbih046

“There was this moment. I was never on the podium. I‘ve always been told: you‘re average, you won‘t make it, your place is below the top ten. That‘s when I realised that I can and I want. I want to win.“

I do agree that Alina has more experience and is likely to know better how to handle such disappointments. That‘s natural, it comes with age. And of course Alina went through many hardships too. But to say Aliona always had it comparatively easier? In fact, their stories on how they became successful aren‘t all too different. Aliona was 16th or smth at the Russian Junior Championships, she wasn‘t even supposed to get a JGP. But then she worked hard, overcame herself and showed strong performances at a local competition. So, I wouldn’t say she had it easier. She‘s just younger, has immense pressure on her and doesn’t know how to deal with it yet. I wish it was different and it breaks my heart to see her like this but that‘s the way competition in Russia is. I just hope she gets all the support she needs and learns from this competition. I hope one day Aliona will be able to compete like Alina, enjoying herself on the ice, knowing she has proved everything already. It will take time and she’ll need quite a bit of luck as well but I‘m willing to wait and cheer her on for every part of her story.

 

[flanker]

I have absolutely no idea what “would you like to talk to a human” means? What are you trying to say?

Just the last question and answer.

Seriously, I truly don't want to offend anybody, but I feel that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the idea of an athlete being affected by the wrong decision of the judges and referees. That's absolutely nothing uncommon, you can see it in soccer, tennis, everywhere. I don't understand what is so hard to understand on this.

 

[Finley]

I have absolutely no idea what “would you like to talk to a human” means? What are you trying to say?

He is trying to say "no" with the use of a YouTube video depicting a humorous clip of a movie with a robot asking the exact same question you did and Matt Damon's character responding 'negative'. Which means 'no'.

Sometimes you just have to take a post at face value and not impart ulterior motives.

Apologies to flanker for speaking for you but I felt you were being misunderstood and wanted to clarify.

 

[el henry]

Just the last question and answer.

Seriously, I truly don't want to offend anybody, but I feel that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the idea of an athlete being affected by the wrong decision of the judges and referees. That's absolutely nothing uncommon, you can see it in soccer, tennis, everywhere. I don't understand what is so hard to understand on this.

That opinion I understand. I may agree or disagree with the underlying premise (wrong decision) but I understand the sentiment.

I don’t understand “oh please thank you for explaining” if you don’t agree with someone, because I truly don’t know if it’s agreement or if it’s an attempt at mockery. It’s much more clear for literalists to say “I still don’t agree”

 

[[email protected]]

Not debate.

I tried discrimination cases for a living. These numbers would not be legally sufficient statistics to prove discrimination in a courtroom. I do not have time, or frankly, the interest, to outline how they would fail, but they would.

I don’t care enough about who wins IdF ladies or what their scores are to debate the scoring, but I have a slight professional interest in the use of the word statistics in conjunction with discrimination.

Why does one have to bring court or Holocaust into this? I clearly stated the reason of my dissatisfaction. There are ladies who receive different treatment from the last season. This is manifested in the the combination of things. These things are obvious like edge call for Zagitova, the call that she never had before although visibly her lutz technique is the same. And like it was with Trusova who got -2 levels here we are also -2 levels (clean, !, e) It's a big deal. The number of these cases form now statistics. And the point is that those who experience this - and they do experience this like Alyona said yesterday: "Why did I bother?", those happen to be my favs. Is it a crime?

I firmly believe that there should be other explanations than: "her lutz was good before and not that good now" or "her lutz was always bad and finally they noticed it". Unfortunately, those attempts for analysis that I and some others try to do encounter immediate "Conspiracy!" shout.

 

[Mishaminion]

[/B]

This statement strikes me as extremely unfair and I believe the comparison doesn't read the way you intended. You have every right to believe that Russian opinions are influenced by their bias toward their own skaters (just like anyone's might be). But to dismiss them all on that basis is unfair. To equate them with extremists is just wrong, in my opinion.

I'm sure not all Russians are biased, but naturally many will be. We see this with the fans and media of most countries, of course, not just Russia.

American figure skating media, to me, often seems quite biased and for that reason I would not use it to argue a point about Bradie Tennel for example, because of the obvious bias.

I wasn't equating fans with anti-semites, please do not misinterpret me. It was an example (slightly tongue-in-cheek I suppose) of a biased source that's all.

I know many people do not think my own professional training has anything to do with this subject but I think it does. Simply because I have been taught to be careful with sources that have a potential or obvious bias, have learned from years of study how people who hold a particular bias try to support it by literally quoting only from sources that agree with them or that they can cherry pick in order to make it seem like it does.

 

[Mishaminion]

Why does one have to bring court or Holocaust into this? I clearly stated the reason of my dissatisfaction. There are ladies who receive different treatment from the last season. This is manifested in the the combination of things. These things are obvious like edge call for Zagitova, the call that she never had before although visibly her lutz technique is the same. And like it was with Trusova who got -2 levels here we are also -2 levels (clean, !, e) It's a big deal. The number of these cases form now statistics. And the point is that those who experience this - and they do experience this like Alyona said yesterday: "Why did I bother?", those happen to be my favs. Is it a crime?

I firmly believe that there should be other explanations than: "her lutz was good before and not that good now" or "her lutz was always bad and finally they noticed it". Unfortunately, those attempts for analysis that I and some others try to do meet immediate "Conspiracy!" shout.

People have professional experience of certain things that's all.

I am not dragging the holocaust in to the debate, but using my experience of dealing with those who do not accept the historical narrative as true.
I see exactly the same kind of biases, tactics and argument styles used in different theory topics, from Figure skating to flat Earthers, from 9/11 to faked moon landings... conspiracy theories use very similar methods.

That is my experience.

You are doing it yourself by stating you know the reason why Alyona said "why do I bother?"

Without any evidence or confirmation of why she used those words, you are linking them to a specific definition, one that fits your theory.

 

[Scott512]

When nobody protests loudly, "mistakes" will soon become a norm. "When people have swallowed it one time, why not to do it again." Mr. Jeroen Prins sends his regards.

Not to mention that I wouldn't be happy if the public space would have been taken only by those who are already celebrating over the "bravery of the tech panel finally calling Alina's flutzes".

Made up fake calls for everyone? Yeah, sure. No, only for Aliona (ur) and Alina (e). Bell's rotation on 3Lz was no better than Aliona's 3A, Bell's edge on 3Lz was no better than Alina's. But she didn't get the same calls. So, no.

Just the last question and answer.

Seriously, I truly don't want to offend anybody, but I feel that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the idea of an athlete being affected by the wrong decision of the judges and referees. That's absolutely nothing uncommon, you can see it in soccer, tennis, everywhere. I don't understand what is so hard to understand on this.

it's unbelievable to me that Mariah is within four points of Alina and five points of Alyiona. If all of them skate very well and all three did the two Russinas should be well ahead of Bell and not just for a five points. The two Russians got squeezed yesterday but let's hope that does not affect them today. Anything less than gold and silver for them would be a disaster. I think the younger Russian has an advantage if she hits her 2 trixels.

 

[Giltedge]

I'm sure not all Russians are biased, but naturally many will be. We see this with the fans and media of most countries, of course, not just Russia.

American figure skating media, to me, often seems quite biased and for that reason I would not use it to argue a point about Bradie Tennel for example, because of the obvious bias.

I wasn't equating fans with anti-semites, please do not misinterpret me. It was an example (slightly tongue-in-cheek I suppose) of a biased source that's all.

I know many people do not think my own professional training has anything to do with this subject but I think it does. Simply because I have been taught to be careful with sources that have a potential or obvious bias, have learned from years of study how people who hold a particular bias try to support it by literally quoting only from sources that agree with them or that they can cherry pick in order to make it seem like it does.

This is a disgusting line of argument to be pursuing. Surely it has no place here in GS?

 

[flanker]

Actually, that‘s not true, according to Aliona‘s own words at least.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B3nNzSHJ2eQ/?igshid=owycazbih046

“There was this moment. I was never on the podium. I‘ve always been told: you‘re average, you won‘t make it, your place is below the top ten. That‘s when I realised that I can and I want. I want to win.“

I do agree that Alina has more experience and is likely to know better how to handle such disappointments. That‘s natural, it comes with age. And of course Alina went through many hardships too. But to say Aliona always had it comparatively easier? In fact, their stories on how they became successful aren‘t all too different. Aliona was 16th or smth at the Russian Junior Championships, she wasn‘t even supposed to get a JGP. But then she worked hard, overcame herself and showed strong performances at a local competition. So, I wouldn’t say she had it easier. She‘s just younger, has immense pressure on her and doesn’t know how to deal with it yet. I wish it was different and it breaks my heart to see her like this but that‘s the way competition in Russia is. I just hope she gets all the support she needs and learns from this competition. I hope one day Aliona will be able to compete like Alina, enjoying herself on the ice, knowing she has proved everything already. It will take time and she’ll need quite a bit of luck as well but I‘m willing to wait and cheer her on for every part of her story.

That's about the time year and half before what I was talking about. Easier is not good word for what I'm talking about and I didn't use it nor wanted to indicate anything like that. However, I stand by the idea that Aliona so far didn't have the experience of Alina had last season. That's my point, experience, not having something "easier". If people here are talking as if it wasn't somehow hard to deal with such moments, then I say that it is necessary to differ between Alina, who had more time to learn how to deal with pressure.

I truly hope nobody sees anything "negatve, sarcastic or mockering because that is definitely not what I'm saying here.

 

[Mishaminion]

This is a disgusting line of argument to be pursuing. Surely it has no place here in GS?

How is it disgusting?

The very topic of conspiracy theories is not permitted here, and I'm pointing out that it is not just disagreement with the judging but a blatant conspiracy theory that has no place here. And I do that using my experience of how these theories work to show it.

You don't need to tell me it's a sensitive subject, I keep saying it is and that the comparison is ONLY with the tactics used not the subjects being talked about.

 

[Finley]

Who else likes pizza?? [emoji16][emoji14]

With pineapple!

 

[GS Forum Staff]

Reminder:

Do not discuss the Ladies Long Program at the IdF until the Long program has finished (i.e. The last lady has skated and been marked).
This means no posting of marks or discussing scores or results or rehashing performances.

During the Short Program these rules were not followed. Please do not make us shutdown the thread while the Long Program is going on because some of you will not follow the rules.

 

[ancientpeas]

And yet you do it so effortlessly...

 

[flanker]

That opinion I understand. I may agree or disagree with the underlying premise (wrong decision) but I understand the sentiment.

I don’t understand “oh please thank you for explaining” if you don’t agree with someone, because I truly don’t know if it’s agreement or if it’s an attempt at mockery. It’s much more clear for literalists to say “I still don’t agree”

People are different. I remember there was even a thread settled for common sayings and proverbs to avoid situations when someone could feel offended by some words. The problem is that in an environment I live people are completely different on those things than in the environment like this, have different standards (there are things that offend us much more than would you and the other way around), different sense of humour. I admit I have very little experience to talk with people from the environment like you and many others here, who have the boundaries for such things on completely different place than me. That's also probably why I'm receiving infractions, because I use sometimes words and formulations that are normal or harmless here and hardly anybody would consider them offensive. You can't proceed from one environment with some standards to another and back in one day without "losing a flower" (our common saying).