2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Mishaminion]

There is too much going on now to fixate on "what ifs" from the past.

 

[Edwin]

Littlest quadster Veronika Zhilina just jumped 4T cleanly in her "New Year 2020" competition.

Protocols: https://www.sportvokrug.ru/r/competition/6630/Протокол.pdf

 

[desp]

Littlest quadster Veronika Zhilina just jumped 4T cleanly in her "New Year 2020" competition.

video https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/650626256475389953/656484601824411648/nika4T.gif
She is 11 y. o.

 

[starla16]

Today is Tuks birthday and shes been in senior for ages
so all this talk of russian shelf life is ridiculous, also Med is old

Tuk could be competing past 2022
and shell be almost 30 by then, Tuk is exteremly old skater by russian standrds predating Sochi

 

[Tolstoj]

This wouldn't have made a difference in the olympics. If Evgenia did a -3Lo combo, she wouldn't have gotten more points. Because she'd still only be repeating 3F; her BV would've remained more or less the same; she could have repeated 3Lo but the BV difference would is not enough. I believe this has been discussed many times before. The value of doing a -3Lo combo is that you can maximize your BV by repeating 3Lz and 3F (before ladies started doing quads). But Evgenia wouldn't have repeated the 3Lz due to the possibility of the edge being called. The same goes if she would've done -Eu-3S. Yes she wouldn't be repeating the -3T, but she'd lose the BV of a -2T to the -Eu-.

To maximize a non-quad non-3A program, these things are required:
- clear outside edge lutz and clear inside edge flip so the skater can repeat both jumps and score the highest GOE
- ability to do -3T combos and -3Lo combo
- ability to do a -2T-2Lo instead of -2T-2T

If you don't have all these things, whichever you do doesn't really make a difference; BV is evaluated on the entire layout, not single jumping passes. That's what gave Alina the technical advantage, along with backloading. And I believe Evgenia tried backloading her program in the beginning of the season, but it didn't work out at Ondrej Nepala and probably some practices so they decided to change it. If Evgenia had repeated her performance at Ondrej Nepala where she did the 1/6 layout at the olympics, I believe her score would have had her below Katelyn Osmond. Yes, there was a chance she could've nailed it, but there was also a chance that Alina could've bombed her short like she did earlier the season and it wouldn't have made the difference. I think they made the right choice with the ability/condition of the athletes.

It's not just a matter of BV though but also perception, the idea that you do harder combos by attaching it with the more difficult jumps. 2a-2t-2t is literally the easiest combo you could ever do, and frankly it's not even a pretty one which also limits the potential of high GOE.

I'd have risked 2 3F-3T, and maybe put the 3 jumps combination with the 3s or the 3lo.

 

[macy]

It's not just a matter of BV though but also perception, the idea that you do harder combos by attaching it with the more difficult jumps. 2a-2t-2t is literally the easiest combo you could ever do, and frankly it's not even a pretty one which also limits the potential of high GOE.

I'd have risked 2 3F-3T, and maybe put the 3 jumps combination with the 3s or the 3lo.

i think you are missing the point. Zhenya and her team did the max she could do because she was injured. she didn't do a harder layout because she was injured. if she wasn't it would have been another story and then maybe there would be reason to have these discussions.

 

[Draculus]

Eteri did more (much more) than enough for Medvedeva to deserve being told that in Person and definitely didn't deserve to get ignored by her family and most definitely doesn't deserve all that comments from Medvedeva which sound like her moving to Canada was like Andy Dufresne escaping from Shawshank Prison.
Sure, Eteri should have stayed classy and shouldn't have gone to media with all that behind the scenes information, but she was angry and it's understandable.

1) If non adult student has problems telling adult teacher in person that he wants to leave and leaving "silently" - their relationship is not healthy.
2) The responsibility for the adult teacher - non adult student relationship is on the teacher.
If you agree with those two claims, then simple logic tells us that Eteri is responsible for the situation that Zhenia leaves her without saying a word, if it hurts her she has to blame herself.

If you think Eteri "deserve" something - why do you think Zhenia did not tell her in person? She (Zhenia) is quite intelligent and classy, so there should be reasons.

 

[Draculus]

Furthermore, he is from an "old school" but the Soviet one, where girls used to go to university and would rarely have children before their twenties or even mid-twenties.

This is very wrong, USSR was very patriarchal. So for person from old Soviet times it pretty common to tell such misogynistic things even without understanding what is wrong with them.

 

[Draculus]

Utkin(famous russian football expert, tv commentator and trash talk master) indirectly blamed Team Tutberidze for Elena Vaytsekhovskaya. Also he claimed that Eteri may be playing same game to get Tarasova Fired.

Wish Eteri luck (fingers crossed).

 

[Decoder]

1) If non adult student has problems telling adult teacher in person that he wants to leave and leaving "silently" - their relationship is not healthy.
2) The responsibility for the adult teacher - non adult student relationship is on the teacher.
If you agree with those two claims, then simple logic tells us that Eteri is responsible for the situation that Zhenia leaves her without saying a word, if it hurts her she has to blame herself.

If you think Eteri "deserve" something - why do you think Zhenia did not tell her in person? She (Zhenia) is quite intelligent and classy, so there should be reasons.

Eteri is not the only adult in that game.

 

[Draculus]

Eteri is not the only adult in that game.

This is not a game.

 

[Decoder]

This is not a game.

Or drama?

 

[Edwin]

So the plot thickens ...

The more parties are invited/forced/volunteer to side with one party or the other the better, as to lay open the affiliations and make public where the power lies.

#TeamTutberidzeForProgress for ever, the future in women's figure skating is theirs.

#РаботаемДальше

 

[flanker]

1) If non adult student has problems telling adult teacher in person that he wants to leave and leaving "silently" - their relationship is not healthy.
2) The responsibility for the adult teacher - non adult student relationship is on the teacher.
If you agree with those two claims, then simple logic tells us that Eteri is responsible for the situation that Zhenia leaves her without saying a word, if it hurts her she has to blame herself.

If you think Eteri "deserve" something - why do you think Zhenia did not tell her in person? She (Zhenia) is quite intelligent and classy, so there should be reasons.

Polina Tsurkasya openly spoke with Eteri about leaving and they (according to Polina's own words) spent very nice time in just talking about everything. Zhenya was 18, an adult, when she left, BTW.

Genarally this has nothing to do particularly with Zhenya-Eteri relationship, in my country we are also not that overprotective that we would think that non adults or young adults have totally zero responsibility, duties or dignity. You can work since 15 but you are not able to talk with your coach about leaving? That would totally go behind the athlete, not the coach, that's just ridiculous.

 

[KOBOT37]

1) If non adult student has problems telling adult teacher in person that he wants to leave and leaving "silently" - their relationship is not healthy.
2) The responsibility for the adult teacher - non adult student relationship is on the teacher.
If you agree with those two claims

No I don't.

That may be true in kindergarten or first few years at school, but both of these are simply wrong when applied to high performance sports ( and by high performance, I mean anything above regional junior level).

One and only way to keep relationship between them "healthy" was Medvedeva winning OGM.

 

[Sugar Coated]

On the flipside, he isn't in the 1950s, he's in 2019, he should respect times have changed.

His thinking may be old fashioned but I doubt he is unaware that making such a statement is controversial.

Mishin isn't stupid or that out of touch



My Grandmother is 82 years old, she comes from a different time, one where (her example she often tells me to get across how things are different now) calling black people the N word was normal, but she doesn't go around saying it publically just because it used to be okay.

Because she knows that's not how things are anymore.

If Dmitri Aliev retires tomorrow, would Mishin wish him good luck in his future as a father and grandfather?

 

[Edwin]

No I don't.

That may be true in kindergarten or first few years at school, but both of these are simply wrong when applied to high performance sports ( and by high performance, I mean anything above regional junior level).

One and only way to keep relationship between them "healthy" was Medvedeva winning OGM.

And what about mother Medvyedeva perhaps argumenting " you broke my daughter, you took her chance at OGM away " ?

Unless both parties open up or publish their memoirs, I can hardly think a 17-18 y.o. starting this argument with her trainer, unless she has a quarrelsome nature, has been brooding for a long time and was stoked by whatever 'advisor'?

 

[Mishaminion]

If Dmitri Aliev retires tomorrow, would Mishin wish him good luck in his future as a father and grandfather?

I don't know lol

Maybe?

It's not quite the same, is it? I mean Dmitri could become a father and still continue his skating career with no physical change to himself or expectations to be a stay at home parent.

 

[KOBOT37]

And what about mother Medvyedeva perhaps argumenting " you broke my daughter, you took her chance at OGM away " ?

Unless both parties open up or publish their memoirs, I can hardly think a 17-18 y.o. starting this argument, unless she has a quarrelsome nature and was stoked?

Ok, let's Assume Eteri made some mistake which lowered her chances of winning OGM.(although, If I had to bet, my bet would be on claim that Eteri got 99% out of Medvedeva's Ability,Trusova for example, has much better claim against Eteri when it comes to mismanagement ).

So what?

Is there any coach who doesn't make mistakes ? If so,I am not aware of.

Does that justify what happened after? Nah, not even close.

Eteri was pretty much second mom for her, taught her everything on ice, they won 2 worlds together, she became dominant skater under her coaching, she become a popular brand under her coaching... and after all these,she made one mistake and now she deserves to hear them going to other coach from media/telegram channels or Director of Sambo? without any single 'thank you' said in person? yeah, sorry but, if you do that, don't be surprised if people start disliking you.

Imagine if,for example,Liverpool FC fired Jurgen Klopp last year, cited that his mistakes made club second instead of the first, and to make matters worse, imagine if Klopp heard him being fired from BBC,The Guardian or FA. Would LFC management got hate because of it? Absolutely, no one likes ungrateful behaviour.

 

[Tolstoj]

i think you are missing the point. Zhenya and her team did the max she could do because she was injured. she didn't do a harder layout because she was injured. if she wasn't it would have been another story and then maybe there would be reason to have these discussions.

Look, i think the team made the best to ensure they'd have won gold and silver: Alina with the most difficult programs, Evgenia with her reputation and a more stable layout. I'm not blaming Eteri, strategically they did their best.

But the whole "Eteri was upset because Evgenia didn't win" is BS, otherwise she'd have really tried everything risking more of course, with new combos, or moving the lutz in the second half,... even if she was injured. If you can skate a 7 triples free skate cleanly, and you had already trained backloaded program, one more jump in the second half is not the one that kills you.

Eteri looked upset cause:

1) You can't just be happy for one of your athletes when the other is sad because she didn't win.

2) All russians were on the Evgenia train because she has been the face of ladies figure skating for the previous 2-3 years, even Tarasova was on board with her (when Radionova stopped being competitive), and because she was the one who stood up for the country after the doping scandal and WADA/IOC decisions.

I mean Tarasova kept saying last year the whole time that with 3s-3lo Zhenya would have won the Olympics, we know that would have not been enough if you do the math, but that's the perception i was talking about. People see more difficult or unsual combos and they give you even more credit and that sometimes applies to the judges too.

Alina did the 3ltz-3lo, that was the most difficult combination in the ladies event, that's something even the person who knows nothing about figure skating can understand.

Again to be clear i think the team did fine, but if Evgenia really wanted to win, she could have risked more. Judges sent that message at the Europeans and it was very clear.