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- Apr 8, 2018
2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating
- Thread starter Spirals for Miles
- Start date
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2018
But Zagitova and Medvedeva are seniors. Do you really think they would be sent to Youth Olympics? Actually, Medvedeva, as far as I know, is not even eligible anymore. And Zagitova is the senior Olympic Champion so I doubt she would go back to Juniors.
Valieva‘s better than Kseniia, alright. But what other juniors are there that have been better this season on a regular basis?
No, all I think is Sinitsyna is number 8 in Russia now.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2018
First, You's score is not second, but third highest junior score. Behind Kamila and precisely Ksenia, who scored 215 at Egna. Second, if you have to blame somebody for allegedly generous score for Kamila in Chelyabinsk, then I say that You's yesterday's score is not just generous, it's a gift from a higher power (=not in accordance with reality). That's not undermining, that's how it is. Her free skate was good, but nothing superb despite all the superlatives with some shaky landings (incl. 3A) and very dubious positive GOE for 2A+2T (obviously doubled 3T with near-fall). And as I've already said, Kamila got only 62 for PCS in JGPF for definitely much better and completely clean skate (she received 2 points higher TES than You even without 3A) than what You performed yesterday, while You has received unbelievable 67 points for PCS. For that skate fair score would have been something between 130-132, not 140, and that she would have received for such skate with the JGPF standards. So for me there is no way clean Kamila could have been beaten by You at the same competition with the same scoring standards.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
This. You was scored extremely generously in GOE and PCS at this event. One judge even gave her a +4 on her telegraphed 3A with a wild landing she had to jump out of. To be honest a 0/+1 would be generous. Plus many of her jumps got off axis mid air, and her program had much less 1 foot and multi directional skating vs. Sinitsyna. She absolutely got the Korean senior #1 score bump at this event.
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2018
First of all, I think you‘re being disrespectful to You here, calling her score “not in accordance with reality“ and a gift from the judges. Would you like it if I said something like that about Alina? I doubt it. I‘m not even a You fan necessarily but the disrespect here is blatant.
Secondly, your point about the shaky landings is confusing, to say the least.
This is the 2A+2T for which you found the GOE so dubious.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B7RTsYVpNro/?igshid=ij8vxm660n6r
I see a slightly off-axis 2A but the 2T looks controlled and smooth again. I don‘t know where she supposedly was close to falling but it is not there. Her GOE of 0.94 is also not so tragically high that it would have changed the final score had it been negative. That‘s one point less, not 8.
So, unless you can provide any other examples of jumps where she should have received lower GOE, I will conclude that you‘re only really talking about PCS. Which is a difficult case in itself since we‘re not supposed to compare them across competitions. But since you already did: At Skate Canada this year, Young received 65 in PCS for a program with a fall, so it is not incomprehensible that a much cleaner program overall would be getting two points more than that. Now, of course, this was a senior competition but fact is that yesterday You was a senior competitor among juniors and it showed. She was the only one to keep her nerves and deliver a clean, calm, inspired performance. I‘m not saying she is the best artistically yet (in fact, neither of her programs nor her interpretation of them are to my taste this year) but she has got qualities that tick off the bullets. Now, if she would have scored 70 in PCS or 76 technically, I would have objected, but she didn‘t.
Comparing her to Kamila at the JGPF is also not exactly sensible. Kamila was (and is) recovering from injury, she didn‘t skate her best there. Her score, for what she put out there, was fair. As was You‘s at the YOG. I’m sure there might be one or two points we can deduct from both of their scores but to lower You’s by 8-10 points without any objective reasons?
We don‘t know what would happen if Kamila and You skated against each other because we haven‘t seen it yet. The discussion is pretty weird in general. You won because she was the best yesterday. If Kseniia had been better, she would have won. But she wasn‘t and she didn‘t.
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- Aug 11, 2018
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
I'm confused. Her lutz has been ratified many times this season, and significantly increases her ability to win.
I suppose if you want Anna to have less of a shot of winning things, you might prefer that she doesn't compete the quad lutz.
Define "get proper"? Proper enough for you? Proper enough for certain people who misinterpret the current rules and gripe about pre-rotation?
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2019
The only way to know who is stronger than whom is to put them all into 1 competition and then see what happens 
Probably it will happen in few years anyway!
Taking facts straight though, You also outskated Medvedeva and Bradie Tenell this season, that’s quite an achievement for any skater, especially a new senior like her. So she’s a threat to a lot of ladies, russian ladies included.
P.S. I kinda want to see a competition like worlds last year, where most skated practically clean, but have all the strongest skaters in the world there, not limited by quotas/spots and age limits, and see who lands where.
Would be interesting how all of them would stack up against each other.
Probably it will happen in few years anyway! Taking facts straight though, You also outskated Medvedeva and Bradie Tenell this season, that’s quite an achievement for any skater, especially a new senior like her. So she’s a threat to a lot of ladies, russian ladies included.
P.S. I kinda want to see a competition like worlds last year, where most skated practically clean, but have all the strongest skaters in the world there, not limited by quotas/spots and age limits, and see who lands where.
Would be interesting how all of them would stack up against each other.
I think the big deal with US nationals is that funding levels highly depend on nationals placement. The money issue is a huge one to US skaters, where only the very best get top level assistance (even then, only a portion of training costs are covered).
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2018
You think? Right. Well, I don't know how you managed to get Alina* into it, I didn't mention her at all, if there was some implication that would matter her team, it was only as a reference to the score. This is about completely different skaters, but at least Alina is a russian skater. Nobody came to korean or japanese thread and called her korean slayer ("Rika could be the Russian slayer so to speak"). Also, it always fasciate me how you are triggered by some words, but those words are only a reaction to the very similar words that you are completely fine with, to be precise: "Valieva had generous scoring". That's completely fine, of course
. When you are so selective in the things that are triggering you, I can't take you seriously.Truth is never disrespectful.
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*By the way, you actually did it after the worlds, you actually made some statements about Alina's score being too high. The North remembers
I admit my memory failed me. The combo I had in mind was 3Lz+1Eu+3S, which received 1.26, but it was so-so to stay on skates, the exit was turned to the side and she was forced to help herself with the second leg. That's not how positive GOE looks like. 3A landing was nearly two-footed, yet it received 1.26 point in GOE. 3Lo landing was also quite dubious with catching the balance, yet it received the second highest GOE of all, 1,68.
So OK, 2A+2T was fine, but with 3Lz+3T at the beginning it is for me one of the smaller number of non-problematic judgings.
We are always told that we can't compare between competitions, but then always somebody comes and compares like e.g. You with the performances of some of the russian skaters in their thread in order to show them threatened by this skater. So, when the comparisons between different competitions in negative way towards russian skaters in their thread are made, I don't know why it shouldn't be done in a response to such comparison as well.
I don't care when you would have objected, from that doesn't come when I am objecting. For another comparison, who else of juniors only received 67 in PCS? It's an easy answer, of course it was Aliona Kostornaia at JGPF. Young You is not on the same level of components at all. Anna Shcherbakova has received 66 at junior worlds. Not even Kamila at so called "generous" JGP Chelyabinsk received so much, only 64.
Kamila with broken leg still moves much more fluently and smoothly than You. And again, if she was mentioned as being potentially threatened by You with the reference to her skate at JGPF, I don't know why I shouldn't use the same reference in the opposite way.
As for the objective reasons, I think that 4-5 points less for jumps are pretty objective, and those 4-5 points for PCS are, as usually, subjective, because nobody truly knows how to score specific performance.
We don‘t know what would happen if Kamila and You skated against each other because we haven‘t seen it yet. The discussion is pretty weird in general. You won because she was the best yesterday. If Kseniia had been better, she would have won. But she wasn‘t and she didn‘t.
And I didn't doubt You won deservedly. I even said that explicitly. But with those comparisons made and statements made there must have been some correction made.
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2009
You're not the only one.
Compare to Nathan Chen quad lutz. Or perhaps more humane: How about comparing her quad lutz to what the actual definition of a lutz takeoff is? A lutz has a toe pick takeoff assist, not half or more of the blade assisting. Despite tech panels ratifying her "lutz" and the judges going along with the entire charade, whatever Anna is doing, it isn't really a lutz. I'm frankly surprised that Team Eteri has let her get away with this questionable technique....but I guess, whatever wins them medals....
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2018
Okay, I‘ll split this up. I got Alina into it because I know she‘s your favorite skater. Nothing more than that. Nothing about her scores, nothing about Eteri, just an example. I was thinking how you (or I) would feel if their favourite skater was being talked about like that. And considering how closely you remember my analysis on Alina‘s score after Worlds, you didn‘t take it too lightly.
So, a You fan coming in here will feel just as good as you do when you read someone saying *insert your favorite lady so as to not get Alina into it* was terribly overscored and only got gifted by the judges. Not.As for the “XY could be the Russian slayer“ or whatever. You‘ve been on this forum for a while, right? I think both of us know that the poster who said this regularly comes into the Russian thread just to proclaim the end to the Russian ladies and their success. It‘s been like that since - what - 2016? I don‘t know why you‘re so angered by that or how it has anything to do with me. I spend like 90% of my time on goldenskate here so if I don’t like the Russian ladies skaters, idk who does.
"Valieva had generous scoring". That's completely fine, of course
You‘re right that I didn‘t react to this. My reason was that it was firstly not worded as harshly as what you said and also that the event in question was a home event. Home events are, to a degree, always overscored. I didn’t take it as something sensational, to be honest, or anything particularly about Kamila. Maybe I should have, no idea. I also don‘t know if you want to disagree with me on the home event scoring thing or not (you can, of course) but that‘s the reason why I wasn‘t exactly outraged.
The only thing that “triggered“ (I really don‘t like that word in that context but whatever) me was how you chose to word your “analysis“. There is, to me at least, a difference in these two statements:
“To my mind, the scoring‘s not quite accurate because of .... I think it should have been more like .... and here‘s why:...“ followed by a detailed analysis
And
“Her score was not in accordance to reality and this is a fact, just look at that one jump, she almost fell and her PCS were ridiculous. She got gifted by judges.“
You can disagree here, of course, but we do have a choice in how to word our opinion. The latter, imo, shows blatant disrespect to the skater and nothing else. Also, I don‘t know what you consider “the truth“ but have you thought that maybe it‘s not so black and white after all and what you, personally, see as the ultimate truth may not be the case for others?
That‘s the only thing I didn‘t like. I have no problem with others disagreeing about scores, I just don’t like when I feel like the criticism sounds deliberately dismissive to the skater in question.
It‘s also absolutely true that I‘ve talked about Alina‘s scores and I do not deny or try to hide this, there‘s nothing you have to “forgive or forget“. I tried my best to choose my words carefully and provide detailed arguments on why I, at that particular competition, felt her score should have been different. But I’m always open to learning and it‘s perfectly possible that I was making some comments others considered disrespectful. If so (I will review what I wrote after Worlds, don‘t worry) I‘ll try to do differently next time.
I admit my memory failed me. The combo I had in mind was 3Lz+1Eu+3S, which received 1.26, but it was so-so to stay on skates, the exit was turned to the side and she was forced to help herself with the second leg. That's not how positive GOE looks like. 3A landing was nearly two-footed, yet it received 1.26 point in GOE. 3Lo landing was also quite dubious with catching the balance, yet it received the second highest GOE of all, 1,68.
So OK, 2A+2T was fine, but with 3Lz+3T at the beginning it is for me one of the smaller number of non-problematic judgings.
Well, good, that‘s something to discuss! I‘ve looked at the 3Lz+Eu+3S and I agree that 1.26 seems too high. The landing is slightly shaky because she‘s too close to the boards. There‘s no running edge. However, I wouldn‘t say it‘s enough to warrant negative GOE, as she held onto the landing and had no step out or any other “obvious” error. It was not perfect but it wasn’t really a heavy flaw. Her 3A is pretty telegraphed still, so not on the level of Rika and Aliona at all. I don‘t see a two-foot there, however, just a missing running edge to make it look truly effortless. It was a great effort but it still looked like an effort, if that makes sense. For me the GOE’s acceptable, but truthfully a tad on the high side. I can see where you’re coming from there. But that‘s about tenths of a point, in my eyes, not something truly substantial. I didn‘t see a problem with the 3Lo, she had transitions in and out of it and to me there was no such thing as catching the balance“. It was actually quite an impressive and beautiful jump and she immediately moved into the layback position. That takes a lot of control.
So, yes, I get what you said for the 3Lz+Eu+3S combo and the 3A as well but beyond that? No. Especially since for me the differences in GOE are minimal, essentially if you combine them, it‘s 1, maximum 2, points at best. I‘m really curious where you would have removed 4-5 points because I just don‘t see it.
PCS, especially in juniors, have been on a steady increase since at least last year. Comparing PCS from competitions of this season is a stretch already, and it‘s even more so to last year. Sorry. Also, Kamila had a fall in Chelyabinsk, as far as I know. That does reduce PCS.
In the end, if we saw Kamila and You skate against each other, both flawlessly, I would give the edge to Kamila in PCS. Based mainly on musicality, performance and speed across the ice during one foot skating and stuff like that. I prefer You’s warmth and enthusiasm to Kamila’s ballerina like perfection (both meant in a good way), so it‘s a personal choice in the end. I admittedly have a problem with program composition for both of them, so no idea who‘d win there.
I realize you don‘t care about my opinion or rather, “can‘t take me seriously“ so it might seem strange that I chose to write an answer as long as that. But you know, I‘ve just swallowed the figure skating rule book and I need every chance to prove it, right?
No, seriously, I wanted to clarify a few things here because well... what you wrote was just not in accordance to how I perceived them, let‘s say it like that. And also, I just like to write. But that might not be that much of a surprise, I guess.
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- Apr 26, 2018
https://www.instagram.com/p/B7TvLq6p2yT/?igshid=kt5wraogdxm7
Because I needed something funny to help my brain cells recover after writing that monster post above.
Because I needed something funny to help my brain cells recover after writing that monster post above.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2018
Okay, I‘ll split this up. I got Alina into it because I know she‘s your favorite skater. Nothing more than that. Nothing about her scores, nothing about Eteri, just an example. I was thinking how you (or I) would feel if their favourite skater was being talked about like that. And considering how closely you remember my analysis on Alina‘s score after Worlds, you didn‘t take it too lightly.
As for the “XY could be the Russian slayer“ or whatever. You‘ve been on this forum for a while, right? I think both of us know that the poster who said this regularly comes into the Russian thread just to proclaim the end to the Russian ladies and their success. It‘s been like that since - what - 2016? I don‘t know why you‘re so angered by that or how it has anything to do with me. I spend like 90% of my time on goldenskate here so if I don’t like the Russian ladies skaters, idk who does.
Just briefly: Is truly this a place for a You fan coming, saying how she is above russian skaters and expecting that she will be praised into the sky? No, it isn't. This was a wrong place for such comments. Yet, my comment definitely wasn't disrespectful just because you say so. Those comments (not just by one person) that made me to react were. I've only pointed out where they were wrong and why You's performance is not something that would change the balance in the force.
Bringing Alina into it was just out of the topic.
Again, only two brief responses: I completely didn't care you didn't react, it only matters when you rect to me, selectively. You speak about some analysis but there wasn't any. There wasn't any analysis about why Kamila's score at Chelyabinsk shouldn't be taken as a precise or what, but as "generous". Simple blatant statement, no argument. I responded the way it deserved, nothing more. And yes, again, your reactions are selective and it completely doesn't matter what words are used. Do you think I would write that if this was the first case? One case, a fluke. Two cases, maybe just don't wanna talk about something. More cases? It's a pattern. And this was just part of the pattern.
Oh, c'mon, the love and - the opposite - were too strong motives that time, that was not about analyzing something
As briefly as I can: For 3Lz+Eu+3S it could be something like 0-1 mark from the judges. I remembered Aliona Kostornaia did something very similar at JGP Linz with 3S+3T in 2018 so I looked what she received then. Marks were mostly 0 or 1, though two judges were too genereous, I admit, and gave 3, which is meh, still the imbalance with how You was scored (two times 1, other marks were 2 and 3) is abysmal. 3A, that would again deserve something like 0-1 mark, no flow, immediate change of the direction from backward to forward looks like emergency solution. So not 1.26 GOE, abut something like 0.4. And similarly with the combo, the 3Lo (cca 0.2-0.3), tha 2A-2T would be like 0.6, that 2A was worth cca 2 mark (it should have been 2A+3T and it is obvious on the second jump that one rotation was missed). So I think those about 4 points in TES could be easily put down.
Probably with some skaters more than with the others. Also, in Skate Canada You fell and still received 65, so if Kamila fell in Chelyabinsk and received 64 for a better progam (Kamila's performance qualities and her TES 8 points higher), I would consider that fair as it was a junior competition so some lower PCS is understandable. But YOG is a junior competition (more or less) as well and You received the second highest junior PCS I'm aware of, with Aliona's PCS from 2018 JGPF just a 0.2 point or so higher. And Kamila received her PCS score 62 for JGPF just a moth ago, or in competitions time, just the next junior competition. Did the PCS rose so high in between? That's not small meh, that's big MEH, how high should be PCS at junior worlds, then?
In the end, if we saw Kamila and You skate against each other, both flawlessly, I would give the edge to Kamila in PCS. Based mainly on musicality, performance and speed across the ice during one foot skating and stuff like that. I prefer You’s warmth and enthusiasm to Kamila’s ballerina like perfection (both meant in a good way), so it‘s a personal choice in the end. I admittedly have a problem with program composition for both of them, so no idea who‘d win there.
I know you don‘t care about my opinion or rather, “can‘t take me seriously“ so it might seem strange that I chose to write an answer as long as that. But you know, I‘ve just swallowed the figure skating rule book and I need every chance to prove it, right?
No, seriously, I wanted to clarify a few things here because well... some things you wrote were just not in accordance to how I perceived them, let‘s say it like that. And also, I just like to write. But that might not be that much of a surprise, I guess.
I know you like to write, even when I'm just a very occasional reader
I also write much, justy not everything of that matters figure skating.But just wanna make this clear. I don't like to read that "you can't compare between competitions" argument when with the same breath it is written how this or that skater scored higher than the other one at the different competition. Of course I react (if I react) the way I compare and say what is right or wrong on it. Nobody can expect that one side can use some argument while forbid it the opponents.
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- Feb 27, 2014
The girls on the B, C and D teams of Russian ladies have enough pressure on them every day every performance every practice they don't need to know that Kamila a 13 year old phenom has passed them by already. Let's wait until she's a senior to put her on the A team or the B Team.
As far as flanker and fluture go they've done it again!
Many interesting and pertinent points made by both.- Joined
- Mar 20, 2019
I admit my memory failed me. The combo I had in mind was 3Lz+1Eu+3S, which received 1.26, but it was so-so to stay on skates, the exit was turned to the side and she was forced to help herself with the second leg. That's not how positive GOE looks like. 3A landing was nearly two-footed, yet it received 1.26 point in GOE. 3Lo landing was also quite dubious with catching the balance, yet it received the second highest GOE of all, 1,68.
So OK, 2A+2T was fine, but with 3Lz+3T at the beginning it is for me one of the smaller number of non-problematic judgings.
WTH are we even watching the same skate?? 3A landed beautifully just a little upright and hopping on her landing foot out of the landing as a transition. 3Lo perfect landing with a transition into a spin. 3Lz-3T not perfectly aesthetic 3Lz landing but completely clean landing (as the rules go), beautiful end with the 3T. 3Lz-eu-3S was the only slightly overscored element. Reading the comments I was thinking it would be horrible landings throughout the performance...
Sinitsyna has talent but it wasn't her event in the end. I hope she can handle her nerves for the future.
Wrong. You's score here was 214. Ksenia Sinitsyna score at JGP Italy was 215 and Kamila score at JGP Russia was 221. Ksenia seasons best with no 3a or quads could have beaten You's score so to say only a clean Kamila with 2 quads could beat You is incorrect.
There aren't many skaters that have a true and proper lutz; Shcherbakova (like most) can definitely improve her lutz however she's clearly doing it well enough that judges are giving her credit for what she's doing. It's unlikely that she removes the 4Lzs, if she starts getting called regularly for her lutz edge I can see them working with her to get the 4F well enough to do that in combination and do her 4Lz only once. That's why I was happy to see her get the 4F especially after China (I suspect China judging made her team get very interested in the 4F for her) because it gives her the option of a different quad.
At this point the quad lutz is considered the most difficult jump being attempted in competitions and it scores points that make it worth it to go for it, even with edge calls and/or under-rotations, if the skater can land it. Look at Shcherbakova's Cup of China protocols she makes out okay even with an edge call on both 4Lz's and an under-rotation on the combination - getting 12.48 and 12.16 points for those 2 jumping passes which at that competition were still the highest scoring jumps of the ladies field, except for Anna's back-loaded 3lz-3lo (12.39). You can even look at the GPF and those 2 jumping passes from China that were considered 'flawed' were scored higher than every jumping pass not done by Shcherbakova/Kostornaia/Trusova and scored higher than all of Trusova's non-quad jumping passes and higher than all except for Kostornaia's 2 back-loaded 3-3 jumping passes. And if she nails them well enough that judges don't ding them for under-rotations or edge problems then she can get 30+ points for those 2 elements.
