2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[halulupu]

Nah, you did not get what I’m trying to say.

So... if for example doctor says “Analyses came all right, there’s nothing on the x ray, it’s probably just sore muscles, massage them more, just keep skating”, Aliona, her parents should’ve just decided not to do that?
If doctors say “You’re good to go”, should Panova/Eteri just have decided suddenly that she knows better?

I’m not sure you actually tried to put yourself in that situation, let alone not sure whether you’ve actually been in a situation like that. Things like that unfortunately happen.

Besides, Eteri said that every new jump is discussed with parents in advance, to make sure they allow the kid to learn that jump. I’m sure Panova does the same thing. Those things aren’t unsupervised.
Something tells me, if her parents knew that learning news jumps will do her any bad, they would’ve not have gone for it first learning a quad with Panova, and then continuing to do that with Tutberidze.

I just think the assumption of adults, including 2 parents, 2 coaching teams (!) that include several coaches, medical professionals within those team added to that, all being just ignorant, reckless and stupid is a little much.

The problem is coaches, parents and the athletes themself they all strive for the quads and are highly interested to progress. There is no objective instance in this system.

 

[nussnacker]

The problem is coaches, parents and the athletes themself they all strive for the quads and are highly interested to progress. There is no objective instance in this system.

Can I ask, do people actually think that the difference between a quad and a 3A is really that big.
3A is only a 0,25(?) rotation less than a quad (given that allowed PR on 3A is 90, and on 4S or 4T 180).

Why are people that scared of quads, but completely fine with 3A?
It will put a body through essentially the same thing, but people aren’t nearly as enraged by 3A as by quads.

 

[Edwin]

Zhilina in danger: Yelena Rodina sucking up to her in the changing room: check elenarodina IG: https://www.instagram.com/p/B78szKgIXXZ/

No sensible skater would want to be associated with a vile creature like Rodina, obviously trying to get access to Khrustalniy' inside information.

 

[nussnacker]

Zhilina in danger: Yelena Rodina sucking up to her in the chanc changing room: check Veronika's IG stories. I don't know how to link a Story.

No sensible skater would want to be associated with a vile creature like Rodina, obviously trying to get access to Khrustalniy' inside information.

That woman is a psycho, is she literally stalking a 10 year old in a locker room?
Were Veronika’s parents nearby? Please say yes.
she also apparently posted weird videos of stalker filming Team Tut at the airport at their arrival, when they went to the bathroom (!) and were getting luggage.
good lord, I hope she gets medical help.

 

[halulupu]

Can I ask, do people actually think that the difference between a quad and a 3A is really that big.
3A is only a 0,25(?) rotation less than a quad (given that allowed PR on 3A is 90, and on 4S or 4T 180).

Why are people that scared of quads, but completely fine with 3A?
It will put a body through essentially the same thing, but people aren’t nearly as enraged by 3A as by quads.

Of course. 3A is considered ulra c for a reason

 

[nussnacker]

Of course. 3A is considered ulra c for a reason

Agree... that's why it's so puzzling to me that people were always perfectly fine with kids doing 3A, but indefinitely more scared of quads.
When Liza Tuktik was doing it at 12, no one was worried about it, and said that Mishin is training jumps longterm effects of which on kids bodies are still undetermined.
When Mao and Rika were doing it in Juniors it was perfectly fine as well.

Is it psychological perhaps? it probably just sounds scarier, because it has a 4 in the front.

 

[Fluture]

Nah, you did not get what I’m trying to say.

So... if for example doctor says “Analyses came all right, there’s nothing on the x ray, it’s probably just sore muscles, massage them more, just keep skating”, Aliona, her parents should’ve just decided not to do that?
If doctors say “You’re good to go”, should Panova/Eteri just have decided suddenly that she knows better?

I’m not sure you actually tried to put yourself in that situation, let alone not sure whether you’ve actually been in a situation like that. Things like that unfortunately happen.

Besides, Eteri said that every new jump is discussed with parents in advance, to make sure they allow the kid to learn that jump. I’m sure Panova does the same thing. Those things aren’t unsupervised.
Something tells me, if her parents knew that learning news jumps will do her any bad, they would’ve not have gone for it first learning a quad with Panova, and then continuing to do that with Tutberidze.

I just think the assumption of adults, including 2 parents, 2 coaching teams (!) that include several coaches, medical professionals within those team added to that, all being just ignorant, reckless and stupid is a little much.

I got what you were saying just fine, don't worry, I just happened to disagree with it.

I also do not know why it matters whether or not I personally have been in situations like that but rest assured, I have and it sure is a difficult time for everyone involved. Misdiagnoses can be a pain for entire families as they struggle to find out what really is going on and no one seems to be able to help. I am more than aware of that, thank you very much. But it does not change my main argument.

What her parents and her coaches should have decided to do is take it easier and NOT learn a quad when she was still recovering from whatever it was that was bothering her. When you are in pain for months and no doctor is able to diagnose you properly, you should not go out of your way and put your body under more physical stress and danger. A 14-year old cannot know that. Coaches and parents, however, can. I am just as informed as you are about this whole situation but I seriously doubt that any medical professional would tell a teenager to go and learn new elements that require a lot of falling when she has been in constant pain for months. Skating to not lose the feeling of it or doing "easier" elements to keep in shape ≠ trying to learn quads. Again, they could have waited in teaching her the quad until summer, let her heal and rest for a few months. See if the pain is still there and then judge. But they had to push for the quad in spring. Again: Why? If you seriously want to tell me that this was because of a doctor looking at her and telling her: "No, kid, go and jump a quad, you've been in pain for months but it's just sore muscles. You're alright, do whatever you want.", then that's fine but I will not be able to take it seriously. Like I've said, I know that sometimes finding the right diagnosis is hard. But in my personal experiences, medical professionals are VERY careful in what they tell their patients and if they were not absolutely sure about a possible injury bothering a literal child, they would not advise them to go out of their way and put their body into severely risky situations.

You are allowed to believe what you want, as am I. I am disappointed, that's all I can say. I wish Alena all the best for the future. May she find happiness as an Ice Dancer. That's certainly the most important.

 

[Edwin]

AFAIK, all female skaters mention a triksel is more fear inspiring than a quad, because when you tear out of the jump, you'll crash hard..

But Kostornaya and Samodelkina now jump their triksels with apparent ease, so once mastered, the fear is gone. Akat'yeva and Trusova also have triksels almost competition ready, but perhaps not yet mastered their fear?

Kisel will hopefully compete her triksel cleanly in Junior Nationals.

 

[Fluture]

Aliona being absolutely hilarious in a press conference. Her expressions. One of a kind!

https://www.instagram.com/p/B70U04wJjo9/?igshid=1ams58bv0naol

https://www.instagram.com/p/B74BJksHVg-/?igshid=1qrqqeysjfad8

 

[Fluture]

Kisel will hopefully compete her triksel cleanly in Junior Nationals.

I must admit I have never heard of her. Are there any videos of her that I might have missed?

 

[Scott512]

Aliona being absolutely hilarious in a press conference. Her expressions. One of a kind!

https://www.instagram.com/p/B70U04wJjo9/?igshid=1ams58bv0naol

https://www.instagram.com/p/B74BJksHVg-/?igshid=1qrqqeysjfad8

The evil angel strikes again! Anna is in perfect control and it is the perfect young lady as a figure skater. Alyiona on the other hand lets you know how she's feeling from time to time. Lol.

 

[Scott512]

Zhilina in danger: Yelena Rodina sucking up to her in the changing room: check elenarodina IG: https://www.instagram.com/p/B78szKgIXXZ/

No sensible skater would want to be associated with a vile creature like Rodina, obviously trying to get access to Khrustalniy' inside information.

where are the coaches and where are the parents to keep this creature away from their daughter?

That woman is a psycho, is she literally stalking a 10 year old in a locker room?
Were Veronika’s parents nearby? Please say yes.
she also apparently posted weird videos of stalker filming Team Tut at the airport at their arrival, when they went to the bathroom (!) and were getting luggage.
good lord, I hope she gets medical help.

Why do so many of these young girls like rodina and follow her on Instagram or whatever it is?

 

[nussnacker]

I got what you were saying just fine, don't worry, I just happened to disagree with it.

I also do not know why it matters whether or not I personally have been in situations like that but rest assured, I have and it sure is a difficult time for everyone involved. Misdiagnoses can be a pain for entire families as they struggle to find out what really is going on and no one seems to be able to help. I am more than aware of that, thank you very much. But it does not change my main argument.

What her parents and her coaches should have decided to do is take it easier and NOT learn a quad when she was still recovering from whatever it was that was bothering her. When you are in pain for months and no doctor is able to diagnose you properly, you should not go out of your way and put your body under more physical stress and danger. A 14-year old cannot know that. Coaches and parents, however, can. I am just as informed as you are about this whole situation but I seriously doubt that any medical professional would tell a teenager to go and learn new elements that require a lot of falling when she has been in constant pain for months. Skating to not lose the feeling of it or doing "easier" elements to keep in shape ≠ trying to learn quads. Again, they could have waited in teaching her the quad until summer, let her heal and rest for a few months. See if the pain is still there and then judge. But they had to push for the quad in spring. Again: Why? If you seriously want to tell me that this was because of a doctor looking at her and telling her: "No, kid, go and jump a quad, you've been in pain for months but it's just sore muscles. You're alright, do whatever you want.", then that's fine but I will not be able to take it seriously. Like I've said, I know that sometimes finding the right diagnosis is hard. But in my personal experiences, medical professionals are VERY careful in what they tell their patients and if they were not absolutely sure about a possible injury bothering a literal child, they would not advise them to go out of their way and put their body into severely risky situations.

You are allowed to believe what you want, as am I. I am disappointed, that's all I can say. I wish Alena all the best for the future. May she find happiness as an Ice Dancer. That's certainly the most important.

Damn, I don't get this passive aggressiveness, but ok.

I'm not sure why you speak confidently about her recovering and being in pain at that time, especially being in constant horrible pain for months since November.
It might have started as a minor thing, that was more like an inconvenience and only gave her a mild discomfort, hence they did not pay that much attention to it at the time, and it escalated after that, but that's just a theory.
Perhaps, no one, including her parents, knew she needed to be 'healing' and 'recovering' from anything for a certain period, that's why she kept training as usual, and then it progressed to a pain later on?
And I'm pretty sure she had enough falls from triples during practices as well, it's not like it was surely the quad training that led to it, we can't know that.

I'm not sure there was any point where I said a 14 year old was responsible for her actions, so I'm not quite sure what you're alluding to here.

Finally, I really can't believe that her parents, knowing their daughter is injured all that time, knowing she was in horrible pain, just did absolutely nothing, let her compete and learn quads under 2 different coaches.
Tell me I'm crazy, but those are some sadistic parents, if things went according to your theory of events.

 

[Mathman]

Can I ask, do people actually think that the difference between a quad and a 3A is really that big?

3A is only a 0,25(?) rotation less than a quad (given that allowed PR on 3A is 90, and on 4S or 4T 180).

Why are people that scared of quads, but completely fine with 3A?

I think it's because of the history, and also because of the comparison with men's skating.

In men's, easy does it. It took a decade or so before all men were doing the triple Axel, then it took another decade before quads became common.

On the ladies' side, a triple Axel was a great rarity, and now hard on the heels of the 3A it seems like every junior lady and her sister are pumping out the quads, or at least trying to.

The part about the number of degrees of rotation is well taken, though. The type of "quads" that the young ladies do (relative to the gentlemen's standard) is not so bone-rattling contrasted with a triple Axel, or even to a fullly rotated triple. The height and the force of the landing would seem to be the important factors with respect to chronic injuries and wear and tear, rather than whipping around in the air.

 

[Edwin]

I must admit I have never heard of her. Are there any videos of her that I might have missed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4ZvbRAkpck

 

[colormyworld240]

I think it's important to note that hindsight is 20/20, and with a misdiagnosis, you don't know it's a misdiagnosis until you know. So if that was the case in Kanysheva's injury, she could've just thought she was sore, then she she felt better and the doctors confirmed it. Perhaps the intense training worsened the condition and then it was noticed that she was actually seriously injured.

I don't know if Panova/Eteri knew about her injury, but I doubt they would be allowing her to train at a full competitive load let alone quads if they did After all, Evgenia, Anna, Alena, and Kamila were all pulled out of competitions/stopped training due to various intensities of injuries, so I doubt coached like Panova and Eteri who certainly have experience with injured skaters would risk everything for a less important junior season, regardless of what the skaters wants. I'm sure Evgenia didn't want to miss GPF in the olympic season and Alena didn't want to miss her final chance at a JW title, but it was necessary due to injury and Kanysheva certainly wouldn't have been an exception.

 

[nussnacker]

where are the coaches and where are the parents to keep this creature away from their daughter?

Why do so many of these young girls like rodina and follow her on Instagram or whatever it is?

Yeah, man, I honestly have 0 clue.
She's sort of strange all around, she cusses and calls figure skaters 'prostitutes', I have absolutely no idea what's so appealing about her content to any of these girls.
And why some even agree to do interviews with her.
Perhaps they like that she's this edgy and 'risky' persona?

afaik, she also said she would've slashed/beaten Orser's face for what happened with Medvedeva at Skate Canada. Was she joking? if yes, her humor is quite strange sometimes.... to put it mildly.

 

[colormyworld240]

No, no, no, we must have misunderstood each other here. My point was not that Panova was mostly to blame. There is no “most“ in this case because I cannot judge that far. But I can judge, based on the timeline Alena herself offered and what we know so far, that ALL adults in this case let her down. Severely. Yes, there is Eteri under whom she trained quads with an injury. I don‘t think we need to mention how incredibly risky and downright dangerous that was, both to her long and short-time health. There is no way to state that differently. How “light“ the injury seemed to be is absolutely no excuse, if there‘s risk of a not properly diagnosed injury, you don‘t just go and do some quads, especially not when it was the start of the off-season and there was absolutely NO rush. But it’s not like Eteri was the only one who failed Alena here.

Where was Panova when Alena trained under her and went to often unnecessary junior competitions injured? (Again, that‘s according to the timeline she mentioned) Or her parents? There‘s always more than one to blame and I don‘t think we can pinpoint Eteri to be “the one and only to end her career“. It was most likely a combination of unlucky events, an ambitious fourteen year old not quite knowing the health detriments she was putting herself through and the adults in her life failing to stop her from potentially dangerous behavior (or actively encouraging her, I don‘t know. I do hope it‘s the former. That would be bad but not as bad)

Like I said. I wish all the best to Alena. In the end, we don‘t quite know what happened but I do know that she deserves to be happy. Thus, I hope she recovers completely and manages to have plenty of success in ice dance.

We don't know that anyone knew there was a risk of misdiagnosis, though. When you get a diagnosis, you take it as fact until there is indication of otherwise. She could have had a discomfort in 2018, felt better and the doctor cleared her with no indication of injury, then went about training normally until she felt pain again, and finally realized with a doctor that it was the same injury that was never healed and made worse by training. From what I can tell, the knowledge of a possible misdiagnosis came when Kanysheva started visiting clinics outside of the city/stopped skating; when they noticed that she was injured. But it seems that by then it was too late. I'm not sure what kind of injury from the sport would be this difficult to diagnose as it seems to be that breaks/sprains/muscle issues are quite common and standard, but that's what it looks like to me.

 

[Fluture]

Damn, I don't get this passive aggressiveness, but ok.

I didn‘t get yours either, so I think we have something in common here.

I do have to say, though, that I honestly do not want to keep repeating myself and I might have to let it be. I have not spoken about “constant horrible pain“, I do not know where you are getting that from, tbh. My point was that she WAS in at least some consistent amount of pain, which we really can’t deny since she herself mentioned it in her instagram post about the clinic (besides, any condition that later leads to you literally not being able to jump will have a certain degree of pain involved) and yet started to train very dangerous elements. I cannot imagine any medical professional advising her to do that and/or telling her she was merely suffering from a “sore muscle“. Not when we‘re talking about a timespan of several months (which we are, according to Alena herself).

Besides, if she can date her injury back to November 2018, then it is only logical to assume that she and her parents must have known about a medical problem as well and further, a need to recover from something or at least not put the body under more stress by repeatedly competing/training quads.

I further did not say that her parents and/or coaches were sadistic, I said they were not careful enough. This is a very drastic difference, isn‘t it?

In the end, I feel like I have said everything I can about this topic and have made my thoughts clear. Good luck to Alena and let‘s hope she succeeds and recovers completely and then stays healthy. That‘s it.

 

[nussnacker]

I didn‘t get yours either, so I think we have something in common here.

I do have to say, though, that I honestly do not want to keep repeating myself and I might have to let it be. I have not spoken about “constant horrible pain“, I do not know where you are getting that from, tbh. My point was that she WAS in at least some consistent amount of pain, which we really can’t deny since she herself mentioned it in her instagram post about the clinic (besides, any condition that later leads to you literally not being able to jump will have a certain degree of pain involved) and yet started to train very dangerous elements. I cannot imagine any medical professional advising her to do that and/or telling her she was merely suffering from a “sore muscle“. Not when we‘re talking about a timespan of several months (which we are, according to Alena herself).

Besides, if she can date her injury back to November 2018, then it is only logical to assume that she and her parents must have known about a medical problem as well and further, a need to recover from something or at least not put the body under more stress by repeatedly competing/training quads.

I further did not say that her parents and/or coaches were sadistic, I said they were not careful enough. This is a very drastic difference, isn‘t it?

In the end, I feel like I have said everything I can about this topic and have made my thoughts clear. Good luck to Alena and let‘s hope she succeeds and recovers completely and then stays healthy. That‘s it.

I wasn't being passive aggressive at all, I simply said maybe (due to your age/life experience/etc) you can't imagine a situation like this occurring? But you probably do, as you say, so no offense.

You have spoken about constant pain here: "I am just as informed as you are about this whole situation but I seriously doubt that any medical professional would tell a teenager to go and learn new elements that require a lot of falling when she has been in constant pain for months."
It just sounds like, you really know when and how it all started, that she for sure has been in constant pain for months before coaching change, but we don't know the details of that level, do we?

And I did not mean, you said anyone's sadistic, you really misunderstood me there, I said if a parent would watch calmly and do absolutely nothing about their kid being in constant pain, that sounds like a sadistic parent to me. To me it goes beyond being careless.

She was in pain, I'm not sure I ever denied that, but it makes the difference knowing when she started feeling pain. Was it a year of pain, or did she start feeling pain much later?
the truth is, none of us knows.
It's just strange to me, you make it sound like Aliona had 0 responsible adults around her, including her parents, who according to your theory, completely ignored Aliona's health situation for 1 whole year.

It just doesn't sound plausible to me.