2020-21 U.S. Pairs Figure Skating

[happycamper2554]

Who would you like to see him paired with?

I suppose you're not liking my idea of Danny with Haven. It's just that I'm imagining something different when I think of the two of them together, like I'm thinking of beauty and expression and maybe just a new lease or a new angle on the sport they both love. You never know what could happen when synergy works. But you certainly have a point; it was always Danny who was the much stronger jumper when with Tarah, and even when he missed a jump, it often seemed to me that he might have been overly thinking about Tarah and that threw his own jump off.

I actually wanted him to be paired with Wessenberg. I still have hope. Her new partner should be pictued in a pair of senior men. They are both too old to be juniors. We shall see of course. Beyond that no idea.

 

[SkateTM0102]

Who would you like to see him paired with?

I suppose you're not liking my idea of Danny with Haven. It's just that I'm imagining something different when I think of the two of them together, like I'm thinking of beauty and expression and maybe just a new lease or a new angle on the sport they both love. You never know what could happen when synergy works. But you certainly have a point; it was always Danny who was the much stronger jumper when with Tarah, and even when he missed a jump, it often seemed to me that he might have been overly thinking about Tarah and that threw his own jump off.

I am having a hard time coming up with someone for Danny as well. The only two names I really came up with were Haven and Megan Wessenberg, but Wessenberg has paired up. How old is Chelsea Liu? I imagine that Danny doesn’t want to go all the way to 2026 though I don’t know him personally, so I could be wrong. It would seem to me, that if he’s just planning to compete for a few more years he wouldn’t want someone with very little pairs experience, or someone Fairly young. To me, that would eliminate Finster as she’s still in her teens right? I was trying to think if there’s anyone out with Meno and Sand that fit those criteria and I couldn’t think of anyone off the top of my head, but I don’t know everyone there. I don’t know anyone that really fits that criteria that’s available except Haven, and She’s in Florida. I don’t think she’s said anything about plans (though she did post something on Instagram of a throw triple sal recently). Unfortunately, her jumps aren’t super consistent either, so I don’t know if a pairing of Danny and Haven would really be a higher ranking team then what they were in previously. Though to be fair, while I always thought that Brandon and Alexa would be a better team than either of their previous pairings I (and I think most of us) didn’t expect them to be as good as they are, so maybe Danny/Haven could work. Who knows? These next couple of months are always interesting as partnerships break up/get together, switch coaches, etc.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Tryouts can be interesting. When two people click together, they can each feel it. I wonder about the statistics of how many tryouts end up working out, and which ones don't for which reasons. There are so many things involved, of course. Because even when a tryout goes well, other logistical factors may prevent a pairing.

If Danny were to pair with someone at the Irvine rink, I would think that it would be on the basis of two years or so. Therefore, if it's a younger partner, that person would be looking at the experience value and likely hoping to find another partner down the road.

If Wessenberg and Eisenach have clicked, I don't see them switching. They are both in the same age range, and thus should have a chance to steadily build a career together.


Regarding the McIsaac/Sadusky split, TSL's Dave & Jonathan made some interesting observations in their latest broadcast. They feel that Mark Sadusky was 'used,' in that there was a lot of performative 'bro' stuff going on between Nyman and Sadusky on social media. And then suddenly Brynne is Nyman's partner, and no longer Sadusky's partner.

Sappenfield is also known for suggesting partner switches with the odd person out, remaining the odd person out. It's too bad that Brynne and Mark didn't go to Detroit with Jim and Amanda. Wasn't it Jim who put the two together? They worked too hard together and were in third at the 2021 U.S. pairs challenge. I wonder what's going on in the Sappenfield training camp.

 

[TontoK]

I wonder what's going on in the Sappenfield training camp.

I take whatever TSL has to say with a grain of salt. I enjoy their interviews much more than the gossipy aspects they sometimes bring to their videos. But they have hinted at something nafarious going on in her camp, big enough that USFSA has encouraged some pairs to seek training elsewhere. Whether this is true or not, I cannot say. Again, this falls in the realm of gossip, and as far as I know, no one has gone on the record.

That said, Lease does seem fairly well connected... or connected enough to land some good interviews with noted skaters, judges, and choreographers. It makes me wonder.

 

[ice coverage]

FWIW, Sadusky's Instastory tonight says (I have tried to use the same emojis that he did):

Some people man really
make me laugh
plans are not
permanent things
happen things change
grow up move on
progress not regress
Don't make the world a
more toxic place
Please grow up and
learn to be an adult
Don't spread rumors of
things you don't know of
Yours truly
​

Perhaps it is his response to TSL??

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

^^
Definitely interesting words by Mark. And I do agree it's important to take everything said on TSL with a grain of salt. Despite DL's insider sources, he often puts a spin on things that's in his head, and not necessarily accurate. There's always a lot that goes on behind-the-scenes and interactively on a personal level which the larger public, and in this case fans of figure skating who are not directly a part of rink environments, would not really know about.

On the other hand, it is often in rink environments where gossip begins and then spreads, accurate or not. I think there should be a lot more guidelines, transparency and overall policies instituted within rink environments to help cut down on some of the emotional and physical abuses that have gone on for years, and that have continued to surface and re-surface.

I'm not saying that what happened in this current partner switch involves any kind of abuse situation. I'm simply reminded of a wide variety of recent issues at various rinks, which leads me to feel that there should probably be guidelines and more transparency involved in rink management and with interaction between athletes and coaches, etc.

Mark's words in his Instastory still beg the question as to why the split occurred between him and Brynne. They looked to be doing well, so why the split? T.J. has been looking for a partner for awhile since his split with Sarah Feng (another unexplained situation). Post Sarah, T.J. trained with a young Russian partner for awhile, and that didn't work out. Then there was reportedly a tryout between T.J. and Haven Denney. And then the abuse allegations against T.J. surfaced online. Subsequently, the partnership with Denney didn't materialize, which could have been due to any number of reasons.

It was never officially reported whether it was Sarah who decided to move on for personal reasons. Or was it that she was simply dropped for personality reasons, or because Sappenfield and T.J. felt something more technical or physical wasn't working with the partnership? Sarah often looked like she wasn't happy in the kiss 'n cry.

As a fan of pairs skating, I'd love to know why Brynne has been partnered with T.J.? Is it a personality thing? Did they hit it off privately and decided they wished to skate together, and then broke it to Mark? Whatever happened, Mark apparently doesn't seem to be bothered about it. Had Mark originally trained in Colorado as a singles skater, and then he moved to Florida when he first partnered with Brynne, or did he train in Florida originally?

ETA:
Checking in on Mark's Instagram, he appears to be a happy, well-adjusted young man who makes friends easily. Good luck to him on his figure skating journey!

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

The post by Dalilah, announcing Brynne/T.J. partnership:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLfgxQOLR9ynr72TRTg1HDXf64mjlXCLVUfyUg0/

In the accompanying clips of T.J. & Brynne stroking around the ice and doing three turns into sbs 3-salchows, they look good together. We'll see what happens. I hope Mark is able to find a new partner.

 

[skylark]

I take whatever TSL has to say with a grain of salt. I enjoy their interviews much more than the gossipy aspects they sometimes bring to their videos. But they have hinted at something nafarious going on in her camp, big enough that USFSA has encouraged some pairs to seek training elsewhere. Whether this is true or not, I cannot say. Again, this falls in the realm of gossip, and as far as I know, no one has gone on the record.

That said, Lease does seem fairly well connected... or connected enough to land some good interviews with noted skaters, judges, and choreographers. It makes me wonder.

Yes, Dave Lease seems very well connected, because so often the facts that he reports as news very often turn out to be true. I do think that because he doesn't quote his sources, that's why they talk to him.

I just wish that he'd quit speculating on the 'whys' of things. [ETA: and especially speculating on people's motivations]. That habit really destroys his credibility, and it also makes it hard for many people, including me, to listen and watch.

I agree with you about TSL interviews. I used to give Jenny Kirk a lot of the credit; and I do think she's a very good interviewer and provided some balance with Dave. But now I realize that Dave is an excellent interviewer. He comes prepared with great questions; and then he listens to the answers and uses them to ask follow-up questions, and he follows emotional clues given by the interviewee.

 

[skylark]

I am having a hard time coming up with someone for Danny as well. The only two names I really came up with were Haven and Megan Wessenberg, but Wessenberg has paired up. How old is Chelsea Liu? I imagine that Danny doesn’t want to go all the way to 2026 though I don’t know him personally, so I could be wrong. It would seem to me, that if he’s just planning to compete for a few more years he wouldn’t want someone with very little pairs experience, or someone Fairly young. To me, that would eliminate Finster as she’s still in her teens right? I was trying to think if there’s anyone out with Meno and Sand that fit those criteria and I couldn’t think of anyone off the top of my head, but I don’t know everyone there. I don’t know anyone that really fits that criteria that’s available except Haven, and She’s in Florida. I don’t think she’s said anything about plans (though she did post something on Instagram of a throw triple sal recently). Unfortunately, her jumps aren’t super consistent either, so I don’t know if a pairing of Danny and Haven would really be a higher ranking team then what they were in previously.

I think Kate Finster is still only 16 or possibly 17. Chelsea Liu turned 21 in December. I loved her skating with Ian Meyh, but she left that partnership to skate for China. She's back to pairs? I'm not sure. She wasn't to Danny's level, but it's interesting how quickly that could change with the right partner.

Though to be fair, while I always thought that Brandon and Alexa would be a better team than either of their previous pairings I (and I think most of us) didn’t expect them to be as good as they are, so maybe Danny/Haven could work. Who knows? These next couple of months are always interesting as partnerships break up/get together, switch coaches, etc.

Absolutely agree.

FWIW, Sadusky's Instastory tonight says (I have tried to use the same emojis that he did):

Some people man really
make me laugh
plans are not
permanent things
happen things change
grow up move on
progress not regress
Don't make the world a
more toxic place
Please grow up and
learn to be an adult
Don't spread rumors of
things you don't know of
Yours truly
​

Perhaps it is his response to TSL??

I enjoyed reading this; I like his line breaks.

It's cool how the last two lines could be interpreted two different ways.

 

[skylark]

This is an article from Feb. 9, but I've been thinking about this quote from Brandon Frazier and want to share it belatedly.

Meno and Sand also helped boost Frazier's confidence. "When I got here, they were so complimentary of me," Frazier noted. "And it's something that I honestly wasn't necessarily used to. They have a way of praising what you're good at, but trying to build that into something better, while also working on your weaknesses."

Knierim and Frazier Find Their Own Path to the Top - U.S. Figure Skating

Alexa Knierim and Brandon Frazier have surged from brand-new team to U.S. champions in just eight months, winning gold at the 2021 Toyota U.S. Figure Skating Championships

usfigureskatingfanzone.com

It's so unusual for skaters or other sports figures or anyone to acknowledge the difference this can make in building confidence and enhancing performance, whether it's in competitive sports or anything else. It also reminds me of Charlie White's comment after choreographing for Brandon and Haven ... that he wished they would realize how very capable they are.

It was during US Nationals that I noticed I was watching Brandon more than Alexa, during their skates. That seemed so extraordinary, and I figured out that it was more than just that he and Alexa were happy to be skating together and getting another chance. It was also that I felt he was performing more and showing what he's truly capable of. Like something inside him has been released, and his true potential has been unlocked.

This is just one more item on the list of things I'm admiring about Todd and Jenni's coaching.

 

[Arriba627]

I suppose you're not liking my idea of Danny with Haven. It's just that I'm imagining something different when I think of the two of them together, like I'm thinking of beauty and expression and maybe just a new lease or a new angle on the sport they both love. You never know what could happen when synergy works. But you certainly have a point; it was always Danny who was the much stronger jumper when with Tarah, and even when he missed a jump, it often seemed to me that he might have been overly thinking about Tarah and that threw his own jump off.

I love Haven and I have tremendous respect for her work ethic, but I was always holding my breath with her jumps and throws. At this point in Danny's career, he needs someone he doesn't have to "worry" about. I'm thinking of the difference in both Brandon's and Alexa's jumping, now that they have partners that are more reliable in that regard.

 

[skylark]

I love Haven and I have tremendous respect for her work ethic, but I was always holding my breath with her jumps and throws. At this point in Danny's career, he needs someone he doesn't have to "worry" about. I'm thinking of the difference in both Brandon's and Alexa's jumping, now that they have partners that are more reliable in that regard.

I definitely see your point. I am only saying that he and a new partner could completely surprise us. Sometimes a change effects a transformation in an unpredictable way. It would be interesting to hear Danny's own view ... and maybe we'll find out eventually even if only by inferring what he thinks if/when he pairs with a new partner. I always felt that he wasn't bothered or swayed by anything people said about his partner's or his own shortcomings, that he had his sights set on his own values. If he skates with another partner, I think that would still be his attitude.

 

[Arriba627]

Yes, he strikes me as a guy who knows his own mind, and he was always fiercely loyal to Tarah.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I think Kate Finster is still only 16 or possibly 17. Chelsea Liu turned 21 in December. I loved her skating with Ian Meyh, but she left that partnership to skate for China. She's back to pairs? I'm not sure. She wasn't to Danny's level, but it's interesting how quickly that could change with the right partner.


Absolutely agree.


I enjoyed reading this; I like his line breaks.

It's cool how the last two lines could be interpreted two different ways.

In what two different ways do you see the last lines of Mark's prose able to be interpreted? Just curious, as I'm not sensing different meanings.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

It was during US Nationals that I noticed I was watching Brandon more than Alexa, during their skates. That seemed so extraordinary, and I figured out that it was more than just that he and Alexa were happy to be skating together and getting another chance. It was also that I felt he was performing more and showing what he's truly capable of. Like something inside him has been released, and his true potential has been unlocked.

I would agree that there's a difference in Brandon's demeanor altogether. I do think part of it involves gratitude, and another part is simply due to the excitement of a new journey and new challenges.

You've provided great insight regarding that part of the article, which I read previously, but not from that angle. I would imagine Todd & Jenni have taken a lot from what Mr. Nicks taught them. As we all know, Nicks is a giant and a legend in the sport. He guided a number of wonderful skaters and champions. Plus he skated with his sister during a golden era in the sport that seemingly was marked at least on the surface by polite camaraderie and high ideals.

As well, Todd & Jenni are class people in their own right. As attested to by their top winning teams at 2020 U.S. Nationals, T&J care about their skaters first as people, and are concerned about their skaters' lives and emotions, not only about their progress in the sport.

It is nice to hear how T&J instill confidence by praising what a skater is good at, and gently guiding them to improving their weaknesses. In adding to your assessment, I have to say that I think Brandon's career journey prepared him for this opportunity. When Haven was rehabbing her career-threatening knee injury, Brandon stuck by her side all the way. And he used the opportunity to work with Marina Zoueva on improving his on-ice positions and presentation skills. Brandon looked much improved aesthetically when he and Haven came back in the 2016 - 2017 season.

Still, as you cited Charlie White's observation, it did seem as if Brandon & Haven were not as consistently confident in their abilities as they needed to be. This factor could be related to the harsh setbacks they endured and had to come back from. It was a long journey which didn't quite result in them reaching complete fulfillment in all of their goals, but there were many rewarding moments. Every experience counts toward incremental growth and improvement.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I love Haven and I have tremendous respect for her work ethic, but I was always holding my breath with her jumps and throws. At this point in Danny's career, he needs someone he doesn't have to "worry" about. I'm thinking of the difference in both Brandon's and Alexa's jumping, now that they have partners that are more reliable in that regard.

Keep in mind the tremendous challenge Haven had to surmount. She was never the strongest of jumpers, but she was a competent jumper prior to her knee injury. She and Brandon were at a point of breaking through to the next level of confidence and competitive results, and then bam, a freak off-ice devastating knee injury happens.

It was a miracle that Haven relearned how to walk again, much less how to perform again as a figure skating athlete, landing joint-jostling jumps. Physically it was a struggle to make her way back, but she was determined, and Brandon gave her solid support. He was the epitome of loyalty. But the psychological and emotional journey for Haven to trust herself again to land jumps safely was always a constant battle. She never seemed to be able to jump as high or as confidently.

As @skylark mentioned earlier about Danny and Tarah, for all pairs, when one is injured or lacks confidence on the jumps, it always affects the other partner. So landing the jumps became a struggle for Brandon too, in his concern for Haven. We have also seen this similar dynamic play out with Jessica and Brian, although their issues are not necessarily about coming back from injuries. As we can see in Brandon's new partnership with Alexa, he doesn't have problems on the jumps. Brandon and Alexa are both strong jumpers. And confidence in each other, breeds confidence in themselves across-the-board.

While Haven's throw landings post injury weren't always secure, she was always beautiful in the air. She got good height and distance. I think she had more trouble with the sbs jumps post injury rehab, than she did with her throws.

 

[Arriba627]

^^^Agree 100%. I saw Haven & Brandon at Sk Amer prior to her injury, and they looked great together. In fact they won the silver medal. She was a walking / skating miracle after sustaining such a devastating injury. Still, I hope for someone other than her for Danny.

 

[TontoK]

This is not to be unkind, but the problem Danny has in finding a good partner might be his age.

He's 30 now. So a 17 year old girl has to be ready to begin a partnership that most likely won't take her to the 2026 Olympics. Could Danny be an excellent partner for the girl... yes. But will she be ready to start a partnership knowing she'll either have to retire or find a new partner in a few years? It's one thing to know your dream will take a lot of money and work, and even then the outcome is uncertain... it's another to know that it's just not going to happen if you make this particular choice.

I don't think there are a lot of older pair ladies on the market. The Brandon and Alexa scenario... two well-established older skaters of opposite sex who are available (or will make themselves available) and who have the skills to compete at a very high level very quickly... probably doesn't happen too often. Adding to the Brandon and Alexa formula - they weren't strangers, not even aquaintances. He was a good family friend for many years. The partnership began with a great deal of trust before they stepped on the ice.

 

[skylark]

In what two different ways do you see the last lines of Mark's prose able to be interpreted? Just curious, as I'm not sensing different meanings.

Not a huge difference, but fun. Mark may or may not have meant it more than one way, but for me that's part of the fun of anything written creatively -- that a reader may find a meaning in it that the writer didn't necessarily intend, and the piece thus becomes more universal.

The first way I see it is the sentence "Don't spread rumors of things you don't know of" ... as in, "things you know nothing about." And the "yours truly" then becomes a classic polite closing line of a letter, after which comes the signature, which in this case is already established.

The second way, the sentence becomes: " ... things you don't know of yours truly." A little more pointedly meaning, "you don't know anything about my thoughts, feelings or experiences."

Don't spread rumors of
things you don't know of
Yours truly

 

[skylark]

I would agree that there's a difference in Brandon's demeanor altogether. I do think part of it involves gratitude, and another part is simply due to the excitement of a new journey and new challenges.

You've provided great insight regarding that part of the article, which I read previously, but not from that angle. I would imagine Todd & Jenni have taken a lot from what Mr. Nicks taught them. As we all know, Nicks is a giant and a legend in the sport. He guided a number of wonderful skaters and champions. Plus he skated with his sister during a golden era in the sport that seemingly was marked at least on the surface by polite camaraderie and high ideals.

Thank you. I think that was part of what John Nicks did for Ashley Wagner, that he gave her confidence in her artistic side as well as her athletic side. Maybe he did it in part by complimenting what she did well, and then building on that. She certainly had a remarkable transformation as a skater between Nationals 2011 and the 2011 Grand Prix events, after she'd moved to California in May.

You're also reminding me of the brilliant Tai and Randy. In a time when Irina Rodnina had completely dominated the pairs field, for ten years, with two different partners, by going athletically where none had gone before -- Mr. Nicks emphasized Tai and Randy's artistry, but also helped them create a completely different look for pairs skaters. And he did it by working brilliantly with what he (probably) saw was already there - their gorgeous long lines and unison, their synchronicity, and something intangible (IMO) in their relationship that elevated them.

I remember that whole year that Brandon spent working with Zoueva while Haven recovered, and how beautifully that showed in his skating. He's certainly proven that he's a loyal partner, and it couldn't have been easy, as a pairs skater, keeping up his training level for all that time without his partner.