2020 Four Continents: Men's Short Program

[Shani]

Sadly Four Continents is too close to USA and Canada Nationals so it can work either way. Jason was great but flatter than at nationals but Keegan Messing was fighting for it after his Nationals upset. Those were great short programs by top 10. They all delivered.

 

[karne]

Yuzuru was... I don’t even have words to explain how I feel when he skates like that. He is the best ever and nobody can tell me otherwise.
Underscored as usual but what’s new [emoji4]

And this is why people don't take you and the fanbase you're part of seriously. He set a new world record with that skate, 48 PCS and huge GOE, and you're still whinging and moaning!!!!! I suppose they were supposed to give him +5 for everything and 50 PCS?

 

[kmw227]

And this is why people don't take you and the fanbase you're part of seriously. He set a new world record with that skate, 48 PCS and huge GOE, and you're still whinging and moaning!!!!! I suppose they were supposed to give him +5 for everything and 50 PCS?

I'm convinced his fans won't be satisfied until the day that happens. I really like Yuzuru and his skating a lot, but I don't think he's underscored at all. He was absolutely breathtaking today though, and the record was 100% deserved!

 

[skateluvr]

Best men’s event I can recall in that there was no splat fest. Congrats to all the guys who tried so hard. Yuzu was amazing. This was his best sp in a long time imo. Beautiful. But I still want to see new programs if he keeps competing. He won the sp. I think he should be very thrilled. On to the LP Yuzu. Best wishes to all the men. Keegan is underscored imo. But whatever.

 

[Ichatdelune]

Love and objective eyes are a difficult balancing act, especially so when you are completely and utterly besotted. Through those love-blinded eyes you see pure perfection that even a literal thousand points can't truly quantify. Let it be, as long as that love doesn't turn to spite towards others it's folly to get worked up against it.

 

[Interspectator]

And this is why people don't take you and the fanbase you're part of seriously. He set a new world record with that skate, 48 PCS and huge GOE, and you're still whinging and moaning!!!!! I suppose they were supposed to give him +5 for everything and 50 PCS?

I'm convinced his fans won't be satisfied until the day that happens. I really like Yuzuru and his skating a lot, but I don't think he's underscored at all. He was absolutely breathtaking today though, and the record was 100% deserved!

Isn't it in the nature of fans to advocate for their favorite skater and hope for the highest scores possible for them? I get that Yuzu fans as a group are loudly enthusiastic, as they should be!

I don't mean everyone should agree that Yuzu deserves higher scores, -or any other skater for that matter, Jun, Jason, Tomoki, Tomono, all have fans advocating that they deserved better scores. As fans who watch their favorite skater closely and track their scores down to the tiniest margin, they are not behaving unreasonably when they think a score should be higher -and say so.

Would I give Yuzu 5s for all his elements and 10's for all his PCS categories? --I might

 

[karne]

As fans who watch their favorite skater closely and track their scores down to the tiniest margin, they are not behaving unreasonably when they think a score should be higher -and say so.

When Nathan's name has become effectively a dirty word, when they are inventing wild elaborate fantasies where the ISU is trying to force Hanyu out of the sport, when they are vandalising historic artefacts and holding up signs during medal ceremonies, then yes, they are behaving unreasonably.

And I think it's incredibly unreasonable to moan and whine about underscoring on a night their skater literally set a new world record. He got the highest SP score ever. It's in extremely poor taste, especially when other skaters in the field had a genuine claim to being underscored and one skater doesn't even get to skate his free skate at all!

 

[WeakAnkles]

From Donovan on it was just one moment after another.

Euors? What Euros?

 

[Interspectator]

When Nathan's name has become effectively a dirty word, when they are inventing wild elaborate fantasies where the ISU is trying to force Hanyu out of the sport, when they are vandalising historic artefacts and holding up signs during medal ceremonies, then yes, they are behaving unreasonably.

And I think it's incredibly unreasonable to moan and whine about underscoring on a night their skater literally set a new world record. He got the highest SP score ever. It's in extremely poor taste, especially when other skaters in the field had a genuine claim to being underscored and one skater doesn't even get to skate his free skate at all!

None of the things you mentioned in your first paragraph happened here at the Mens SP. The crowd was filled with well behaved fans for the entire segment as far as I could see from the broadcast and reading the live reports. Really great to see them cheer for all the skaters, especially in the last two groups.

I definitely think that Micah should be allowed to skate in the FS, but that has little to do with commenting on scoring. It's definitely a point to bring up with the organizers, there's no real reason to cut just one skater for the FS.
We can agree to disagree on the poor taste part and what is or is not a genuine claim to underscoring.

 

[Tavi...]

Isn't it in the nature of fans to advocate for their favorite skater and hope for the highest scores possible for them? I get that Yuzu fans as a group are loudly enthusiastic, as they should be!

I don't mean everyone should agree that Yuzu deserves higher scores, -or any other skater for that matter, Jun, Jason, Tomoki, Tomono, all have fans advocating that they deserved better scores. As fans who watch their favorite skater closely and track their scores down to the tiniest margin, they are not behaving unreasonably when they think a score should be higher -and say so.

Would I give Yuzu 5s for all his elements and 10's for all his PCS categories? --I might

Don’t you think there’s a difference, though, between being absolutely thrilled by your favorite skater’s brilliant performance, for which you personally might have awarded him a perfect score, and criticizing the huge world record score he actually received as grossly inadequate and a product of “unfair judging”? Because it’s the latter that bothers me, not the former.

On Twitter today before the SP began, I saw tweets warning about unfair judging. Later I saw at least one tweet theorizing that the long delay before Yuzu’s scores came up was due to judges who were tampering with his scores to lower them. Much as I love his skating and admire him for continually pushing himself and striving for perfection, those kinds of comments are really hard to read.

 

[Interspectator]

Don’t you think there’s a difference, though, between being absolutely thrilled by your favorite skater’s brilliant performance, for which you personally might have awarded him a perfect score, and criticizing the huge world record score he actually received as grossly inadequate and a product of “unfair judging”? Because it’s the latter that bothers me, not the former.

On Twitter today before the SP began, I saw tweets warning about unfair judging. Later I saw at least one tweet theorizing that the long delay before Yuzu’s scores came up was due to judges who were tampering with his scores to lower them. Much as I love his skating and admire him for continually pushing himself and striving for perfection, those kinds of comments are really hard to read.

Yes, I truly find following posts on twitter, and even here on Golden Skate disheartening at times and it can really lessen my enjoyment. I tend to take breaks from social media when my tolerance for 'scoring discourse' and also negativity and tons of strongly held opinions shows signs of fatigue. The finer points of scoring is not the reason I watch skating though it is integral to skating as a sport. There is a difference between posting an opinion in a positive or negative way. -But policing fans on the internet seems the best way to completely burn out. Blocking and muting helps the most for me.

It took a while for me to get the balance right, but while being a fan of the sport I try to remember that the number 1 thing I enjoy is watching the skating, cheering for my favorite skaters.
Social media and forum posting sometimes enhances my enjoyment. -If so, Yay! I engage, I comment on threads. If it begins to lessen my enjoyment consistently, I disengage for a while, and just watch the skating.

Here at the Mens SP it was just one great performance after another. Superb! -That's what brought me so much joy.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Don’t you think there’s a difference, though, between being absolutely thrilled by your favorite skater’s brilliant performance, for which you personally might have awarded him a perfect score, and criticizing the huge world record score he actually received as grossly inadequate and a product of “unfair judging”? Because it’s the latter that bothers me, not the former.

On Twitter today before the SP began, I saw tweets warning about unfair judging. Later I saw at least one tweet theorizing that the long delay before Yuzu’s scores came up was due to judges who were tampering with his scores to lower them. Much as I love his skating and admire him for continually pushing himself and striving for perfection, those kinds of comments are really hard to read.

this was one of the things that made me annoyed. Nobody else noticed Yuzuru's tech score go UP during the 5minutes.... i've seen 8 tweets / comments thinking that they tampered .

 

[Elspeth]

And this is why people don't take you and the fanbase you're part of seriously. He set a new world record with that skate, 48 PCS and huge GOE, and you're still whinging and moaning!!!!! I suppose they were supposed to give him +5 for everything and 50 PCS?

My problem with the scoring, and let's take Hanyu as an example here, is that GOEs are sometimes applied similarly to PCS, where judging assumes an almost inconceivable perfect 10. The way the human mind works, perfect 10s are rare, because there is always 'something' missing. Saying someone was perfect is a massive commitment.

However, getting +5 GOE on let's say a jump, isn't and shouldn't be about that jump being 'perfect'. It should be about the jump meeting five out of six bullet points for what constitutes a great jump. On this occasion, all three of Hanyu's jump met those criteria, and should have all had +5 GOE. I've seen plenty of Chen's jumps that also deserve +5, as well as Brown, Uno and others. Judges however seem to use GOE to decide how close a jump is to their idea of perfection, which creates unbalanced score sheets. This needs to be addressed.

The best way to see this is actually ignoring elite skaters and looking at the protocols for lower level competitions, where GOE on one element sometimes varies from -5 to +2. That is not what's supposed to happen. Either the 'bullet points' are too subjective (and I think they are), or judges need to be re-educated as to what a +5 means, getting it out of people's head that +5 = perfect jump. I feel that this worked better in the +3/-3 version of IJS, though I'm not entirely sure why. It's frustrating though, as it can lower the enjoyment of a competition.

The fact that people can argue so much about GOEs suggests that they are too subjective, as this level of bickering doesn't seem to occur in diving, or even in gymnastics. I can totally see why people argue over PCS, but arguments over TES/GOE signal a problem, regardless of who your favourite skater happens to be.

 

[monidi]

And I think it's incredibly unreasonable to moan and whine about underscoring on a night their skater literally set a new world record. He got the highest SP score ever. It's in extremely poor taste, especially when other skaters in the field had a genuine claim to being underscored and one skater doesn't even get to skate his free skate at all!

But can fans ever discuss Yuzuru's score?
If he loses, it's always: "he would still lose even with 1-2 extra points so what's your point?"
If he wins or sets new WR, it's "he won/got a WR what else do you want?"
This time his program was perfect - technically and artistically so I don't find it that much incredibly unreasonable if some fans expected perfect +5s on his jumps or more 10's in components.


Anyway, one of the best competition of mens short programs. Hope everyone can carry their great momentum for FS.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

What a fantastic SP! Great to see Brown and Messing and Cha and Tomono and Jin show some of their best. And Hanyu even with a reused program was absolutely sublime - had good intensity in the latter half of his program and the jumps were near perfect and spins were very solid.

Underscored as usual but what’s new [emoji4]

Lol... Complaints about underscoring even when he skates clean, breaks a record, and gets +4/5s and 48.40 PCS?! What’s. New. Indeed. :sarcasm:

You’re obviously entitled to your opinion, but honestly it’s comments like these which sour a phenomenal skater having a phenomenal performance. I mean, the guy skated perfectly, got a record, and is enjoying a whopping 16 point lead over the next guy (who arguably was the one that was truly underscored). And there’s griping that he didn’t earn more points and isn’t leading by a wider margin?!

This is honestly so typical. Hanyu could have been awarded +6s across the board and 51 PCS and some people would still complain about him being underscored... as usual.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

My problem with the scoring, and let's take Hanyu as an example here, is that GOEs are sometimes applied similarly to PCS, where judging assumes an almost inconceivable perfect 10. The way the human mind works, perfect 10s are rare, because there is always 'something' missing. Saying someone was perfect is a massive commitment.

However, getting +5 GOE on let's say a jump, isn't and shouldn't be about that jump being 'perfect'. It should be about the jump meeting five out of six bullet points for what constitutes a great jump. On this occasion, all three of Hanyu's jump met those criteria, and should have all had +5 GOE. I've seen plenty of Chen's jumps that also deserve +5, as well as Brown, Uno and others. Judges however seem to use GOE to decide how close a jump is to their idea of perfection, which creates unbalanced score sheets. This needs to be addressed.

The best way to see this is actually ignoring elite skaters and looking at the protocols for lower level competitions, where GOE on one element sometimes varies from -5 to +2. That is not what's supposed to happen. Either the 'bullet points' are too subjective (and I think they are), or judges need to be re-educated as to what a +5 means, getting it out of people's head that +5 = perfect jump. I feel that this worked better in the +3/-3 version of IJS, though I'm not entirely sure why. It's frustrating though, as it can lower the enjoyment of a competition.

The fact that people can argue so much about GOEs suggests that they are too subjective, as this level of bickering doesn't seem to occur in diving, or even in gymnastics. I can totally see why people argue over PCS, but arguments over TES/GOE signal a problem, regardless of who your favourite skater happens to be.

Yes. GOE is earned by hitting (subjective) bullets. But it is also reduced by any major or minor faults within the element. For some reason, certain fans trivialize or flat out ignore potential reasons for GOE reductions in their favourite skater(s)’ elements - but are suddenly very cognizant and even exceedingly picky about GOE reductions when it comes to their rivals.

An air lean, a slight skid on the landing, a split second break in form. All of these and more could yield a -1 reduction... or could prevent a judge from awarding a bullet like effortlessness or good landing needed to get a +4/5. Not every element a skater does matches the musical structure, no matter how much you think otherwise so that may not get awarded. Etc.

So instead of bemoaning that fave skater(s) didn’t get a +5, take off the rose coloured glasses for a moment, put on a critical thinking hat, and look at all aspects of an element, and ask - was that landing truly smooth, was the air position off axis, did that actually match the music or am I just assuming that it did for my own confirmation bias? Because the judges are certainly trained and inclined to assess that critically.

Judges do not score based on a perceived idea of perfection because they are supposed to look at skaters absolutely instead of relatively (eg they don’t care when it comes to IceScope showing a skater having greater amplitude than another, nor should they). They look at an element and accrue bullets for positive aspects of it, AND determine any areas in which the element may be faulty - and accordingly lower the mark if need be. And some judges will be pickier than others. That’s how Grade of Execution works. If some fan ignores the latter part of GOE assessment - which, evidently, many of them do - then they will invariably cry foul at the judges’ scores, ad nauseum.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Love and objective eyes are a difficult balancing act, especially so when you are completely and utterly besotted. Through those love-blinded eyes you see pure perfection that even a literal thousand points can't truly quantify. Let it be, as long as that love doesn't turn to spite towards others it's folly to get worked up against it.

Amen to this.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

But can fans ever discuss Yuzuru's score?
If he loses, it's always: "he would still lose even with 1-2 extra points so what's your point?"
If he wins or sets new WR, it's "he won/got a WR what else do you want?"
This time his program was perfect - technically and artistically so I don't find it that much incredibly unreasonable if some fans expected perfect +5s on his jumps or more 10's in components.


Anyway, one of the best competition of mens short programs. Hope everyone can carry their great momentum for FS.

Say it with me: perfect performances don’t necessarily deserve perfect scores.

Think of all the perfect performances in figure skating history. Did they score 6.0’s across the board in technical and artistic? Did they get +3s across the board and 100% PCS? Would it have been reasonable for fans to be outraged that such perfect performances didn’t get perfect scores?

What is perfect to you is not perfect to everyone — especially a judge whose job is to look for imperfection and score *critically*. To gripe about a judge not awarding higher scores to a skater for something subjective like grade of execution or incredibly subjective like artistic perfection is unreasonable. They’re a judge. Not their mother.

E.g. I’m sure some of these judges have seen Hanyu’s Chopin a plethora of times and may in a sense be desensitized to being wowed by it. They no longer see it as entirely original or creative even if it’s perfectly executed. So this could cap their components score, compared to if he had done a more fresh, original composition. Indeed, originality and creativity are criteria for which skaters are judged.

If the best cake you’ve ever had scores 100%, and the recipe/execution barely changes, are you still going to award it 100% after eating it for the 1000th time? Not to mention if you think it’s a 100% does that mean someone else has to score it as 100%?

 

[snowflake]

I’m very impressed with Donovan and his coach and choreographer Nunez. Great team working together on home soil. Developing step by step. I know nothing about Nunez, but my guess is he sacrifices a lot for Donovan’s skating. Like it’s his dream too to make Donovan a star.

Also very happy for Keegan. A moving performance that should have earned some more points in my opinion.

Happy to see Han back and Boyang back in form.

Tomoki beginning to show consistency I hope.

Great exciting men’s short. All the best to all of them in free.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

this was one of the things that made me annoyed. Nobody else noticed Yuzuru's tech score go UP during the 5minutes.... i've seen 8 tweets / comments thinking that they tampered .

What could they have tampered with?! He didn’t get anything less than 9.50 on every component and every jump got a +4/+5. (And thank goodness it was no lower — otherwise I would fear for the well-being of those judges... and the arena. )

I haven’t checked Twitter or other forums yet but I can only imagine my eyes will get sore because of having to roll them so much.