2022-23 Coaching, Country and Discipline changes

[momrk]

I think this will be a good move for the Brown's for sure and look forward to seeing how they progress over the next couple of years.

 

[Lamente Ariane]

If the move is welcomed for the Browns, I am just wondering how they will fit in at IAM. It's a big pond and there are many teams ahead of them, including from their own federation. (Or does that imply that one of the USA teams may retire). Some of you mention politicking... if IAM truly has such power, don't you think that it first comes from how a team ranks nationally? Politicking seems rather useless if a team is not on the ISU championships team.... of course, in the longer run, that may be a different story...

The Browns have had a lot of issues with losing levels and technical faults in the past, s which is definitely something they need to overcome if they want to climb the ranks in future. Adding more experienced coaches who can help them be sharper on execution has been my first thought since they debuted. In their final junior season their packaging was great (especially in the RD) but unfortunately with the tragic sudden loss of Serge Onik their packaging this season seemed to take a dip too. I honestly can’t say I’ve been impressed by Cizeron’s choreography this past season but if he’s taken a personal interest in the Browns he does have the advantage of not being as overbooked with his time as, say, Marie-France, and hopefully the Browns themselves can be actively involved in program conception.

Which is to say, I agree that there’s a lot of work to be done before politicking comes into play. Politicking only becomes really essential when a team is on the cusp between medaling and coming 5th, and the difference is a matter of GOEs and PCS… the situation that Carriera/Ponomarenko currently find themselves in. I love the Browns, but politics has not been the only thing holding them back.

 

[el henry]

The Browns have had a lot of issues with losing levels and technical faults in the past, s which is definitely something they need to overcome if they want to climb the ranks in future. Adding more experienced coaches who can help them be sharper on execution has been my first thought since they debuted. In their final junior season their packaging was great (especially in the RD) but unfortunately with the tragic sudden loss of Serge Onik their packaging this season seemed to take a dip too. I honestly can’t say I’ve been impressed by Cizeron’s choreography this past season but if he’s taken a personal interest in the Browns he does have the advantage of not being as overbooked with his time as, say, Marie-France, and hopefully the Browns themselves can be actively involved in program conception.

Which is to say, I agree that there’s a lot of work to be done before politicking comes into play. Politicking only becomes really essential when a team is on the cusp between medaling and coming 5th, and the difference is a matter of GOEs and PCS… the situation that Carriera/Ponomarenko currently find themselves in. I love the Browns, but politics has not been the only thing holding them back.

I don't think I for one ever said that politicking was the *only* thing holding Oona and Gage back?

They have lost a lot of silly (ETA: in that they don't need to lose points this way) points on levels and attention to detail that they need to fix.

But politicking can only help at any level, and I think that imperceptible change in attitude that goes along with that change will help.

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

It seems that Alessandro Fadini has switched from Italy to Iceland, as per this article. Here is the segment, via Google Translate

For the first time in Iceland there is a competitor in Senior Men. It is Alessandro Fadini who competes for Fjölnir, who now competed in his first tournament in Iceland and for the first time for his new club, Fjölnir.
It will be exciting to follow Alessandro in the coming months and see how he fares at his new club.

He last competed for Italy at the 2021 Golden Spin. He has the current tech mins for Europeans (although he may need to re-earn them next season, can't remember how long they're valid for?) but was a long way from the FS tech min for Worlds (52.39, currently needs 64).

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I am actually thinking more internally. The USFS is not immune to the charms of IAM, or the other well known coaching centers. Oona and Gage live at home, train with their childhood coach, (who is evidently still involved, which is fine) and seem to have stalled within the US ranks. If they can climb up the ranks of the US skaters, the strongest fed for ice dance, that should help them internationally.

They needed a fresh set of eyes. I am pleased.

They definitely need a fresh set of eyes and a revamp. They are very talented, but sometimes being smaller in stature presents drawbacks in the heavily competitive ice dance field. I wasn't as impressed with the Browns' programs this past season, as I have been in previous seasons. They need to increase their speed and power too.

It will be interesting to see if this move jumpstarts their career and helps them improve competitively on the senior level. Honestly, so much is involved in this sport. Even talented teams don't always reach their goals because the opportunities are so limited. Anyway, the journey often has greater importance and benefit.

The two young U.S. ice dance teams I have my eyes on are Zingas/Kolesnik and Flores/ Desyatov. Neither are coached by I.AM or affiliate in Michigan. Z/K have a politically well-connected and experienced coach in Shpilband. F/D train in Colorado with a less high profile Russian coach.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

To answer @4everchan regarding Deanna's release. It was two years, I believe. It didn't hurt Deanna IMO, because it gave her time to work hard with Maxime, as they battled their way to prominence and recognition domestically, in the Canadian pairs field.

BTW everyone, I don't know if it's been mentioned in this thread yet, but Gabriella Izzo of the U.S. is switching from singles to pairs. She announced on her Instagram. She's been working with Chris Knierim to acquire pairs skills. No partnership has yet been announced, so perhaps she's still looking. She was seen practicing sbs jumps with Balazs Nagy. However, that may not have been serious practice. She needs a taller partner. I'm wondering if Misha Mitrofanov is an option. They train at the same rink.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I was worried that Brown / Brown might find themselves in a similar situation.

In any case, this is the Browns' debut senior season. They haven't competed in seniors as long as G/P and C/P have, so there was no ground to lose. I mean other than the fact that they were out of last year's Nationals due to injury.* I believe it was initially expected last season they would compete against the former team of Flores/ Tsaresvski for the U.S. Junior ice dance title. The Browns had won the silver medal in juniors at 2021 Natls. Of course, the Browns came down with injury before 2022 Natls. They recovered in time for 2022 junior Worlds, where they captured the gold medal.

So this season is one in which the Browns were trying to build ground in seniors. Things didn't go very well. Their talent is still evident, but they appear to be a step slow. Possibly fitness issues related to injury recovery and loss of training time. It will definitely be intriguing to see how and if this switch can help them in the areas where they need to improve.

Honestly, McNamara/ Spiridonov made the most ground this season, placement-wise (from overall 9th last year to overall 6th this year). Part of their advantage has been receiving more attention from their coaches, with the departure of G/P. Pate/ Bye OTOH, lost ground over the course of the season. At Natls, P/B faltered a bit in the FD, which dropped their placement, though they ended up in 8th overall, the same as last season. But not making any upward movement had to be disappointing for P/B. Even with Hubbell/Donahue retired, there are always competitive new teams stepping into the fray.

ETA:
Of course, the team who lost the most is Wolfkostin/ Chen, since Chen desired to move on and find a new partner. I wonder where he's at in that process.

* Also, the Browns might have missed Nationals last season due to COVID, not necessarily due to injuries.

 

[4everchan]

To answer @4everchan regarding Deanna's release. It was two years, I believe. It didn't hurt Deanna IMO, because it gave her time to work hard with Maxime, as they battled their way to prominence and recognition domestically, in the Canadian pairs field.

BTW everyone, I don't know if it's been mentioned in this thread yet, but Gabriella Izzo of the U.S. is switching from singles to pairs. She announced on her Instagram. She's been working with Chris Knierim to acquire pairs skills. No partnership has yet been announced, so perhaps she's still looking. She was seen practicing sbs jumps with Balazs Nagy. However, that may not have been serious practice. She needs a taller partner. I'm wondering if Misha Mitrofanov is an option. They train at the same rink.

thank you.. so apparently, it's not just Skate Canada requiring 2 years... but USFed as well..

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

thank you.. so apparently, it's not just Skate Canada requiring 2 years... but USFed as well..

Yep, without the ruling on behalf of skaters, there's precedent for U.S. fed never giving the release, especially to a talented and prized skater like Deanna. This, even with the fact she couldn't make much headway in the U.S. with Nate B, because of the hugely deep U.S. pairs field back then. I'm sure Deanna is more than happy, because she found the perfect match in Maxime, which isn't easy to find. Deanna is even sounding Canadian when she speaks these days.

I remember a very talented U.S. ice dancer who wanted to be released after splitting with her U.S. partner. But this was before the ruling on how long federations could hold onto skaters. U.S. fed held on to this ice dancer indefinitely, which scuttled her career.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I remember a very talented U.S. ice dancer who wanted to be released after splitting with her U.S. partner. But this was before the ruling on how long federations could hold onto skaters. U.S. fed held on to this ice dancer indefinitely, which scuttled her career.

But this kind of action by feds has certainly not been out of the norm, guys. That's why a ruling to support skaters needed to be made in the first place. Plenty of other countries have been known to hold onto skaters and not give them their release, including Russia and France, to name two.

U.S. fed even tried to block Jessica Pfund/ Josh Santillan from their release to skate for Switzerland. That was extremely petty of U.S. fed, and everybody was disgusted when it came out that the U.S. were trying to make them pay for past monetary support before they would agree to release them. SMH! Jess & Josh only wanted a chance to skate and to be their best. They had struggled with a lot of injuries over the years after making a promising impression when they first became partners. They had lost career momentum and were stuck behind a number of top teams in the U.S. Still, they had talent too, and they wanted a chance to have a career, to have the opportunity to skate at Euros and Worlds, if not at the Olympics.

Josh & Jess held fast, ended up getting their release and skating for Switzerland for a short time. They almost went to 2022 Euros, but were felled by contracting COVID.

ETA:
I want to add that Josh &Jess are positive people, reflective and honest about their career together. They've both coached for years to help pay for their competitive pursuits. Jess still coaches, I believe. They had a lovely blog they shared with fans. I'm sure they don't want anyone feeling sorry for them. They gave it their all, and in the long run, that's all that matters.

 

[Weathergal]

In any case, this is the Browns' debut senior season. They haven't competed in seniors as long as G/P and C/P have, so there was no ground to lose. I mean other than the fact that they were out of last year's Nationals due to injury.* I believe it was initially expected last season they would compete against the former team of Flores/ Tsaresvski for the U.S. Junior ice dance title. The Browns had won the silver medal in juniors at 2021 Natls. Of course, the Browns came down with injury before 2022 Natls. They recovered in time for 2022 junior Worlds, where they captured the gold medal.

So this season is one in which the Browns were trying to build ground in seniors. Things didn't go very well. Their talent is still evident, but they appear to be a step slow. Possibly fitness issues related to injury recovery and loss of training time. It will definitely be intriguing to see how and if this switch can help them in the areas where they need to improve.

Honestly, McNamara/ Spiridonov made the most ground this season, placement-wise (from overall 9th last year to overall 6th this year). Part of their advantage has been receiving more attention from their coaches, with the departure of G/P. Pate/ Bye OTOH, lost ground over the course of the season. At Natls, P/B faltered a bit in the FD, which dropped their placement, though they ended up in 8th overall, the same as last season. But not making any upward movement had to be disappointing for P/B. Even with Hubbell/Donahue retired, there are always competitive new teams stepping into the fray.

ETA:
Of course, the team who lost the most is Wolfkostin/ Chen, since Chen desired to move on and find a new partner. I wonder where he's at in that process.

* Also, the Browns might have missed Nationals last season due to COVID, not necessarily due to injuries.

I disagree about them not having ground to lose. Yes, I realize it was their debut senior season, but I was worried more long term. Anyway I don't think their current coaching team is awful by any means, but I feel they need that something more to push them to the next level - and part of that is definitely packaging and programs. I also think they can work on things like their speed more as well. I think they'll get great help with all of those things at I.AM. Also on a less tangible level, they'll be moving away from home, which will also, I would imagine, change things for them.

I do agree about McNamara / Spirodonov though when it comes to gaining the most ground this season. I'd put Carreira / Ponomarenko right after them, I think. But with M / S in particular, they really showed improvement, and I'm glad because Lorraine had such a promising junior career with Quinn then they foundered a bit, and then he retired to go to school, I believe. So she had to start with someone who showed promise but wasn't up to her level. So it's great to see both of their hard work pay off.

I'm just excited in general for US Dance.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

^^ I understand what you mean about the Browns @Weathergal. You are speaking in terms of them losing ground in advancing their senior career. I was referring more to the fact that they hadn't built any ground yet in seniors to lose. It can be looked at both ways.

The Browns did not make an impressive debut in seniors this year, so it's smart of them to change course and to seek out fresh coaching eyes. I.AM are the best in the business. They have revolutionized the ice dance discipline in such a positive way. So it's surely a boon for the Browns to land a place at I.AM. Oona & Gage both seem passionate about ice dancing, so we'll find out what happens for them next. They certainly managed to do a lot in advancing their junior career over their last two seasons as juniors.

I too enjoy the ice dance discipline. It would be the discipline I'd love to participate in most. While I totally enjoy watching pairs, it seems a bit more scary to perform pair feats. The only things I don't like about ice dance are the heavy politics and some of the more uglier, convoluted lifts. There are some stunning, beautiful lifts in ice dance too, when smoothly executed. I really miss Madi Hubbell and Zach Donahue. But they ended their career in style and on their own terms at the 2022 Olympics.

 

[moonvine]

Oona & Gage Brown to IAM

I.AM on Instagram: "Oona & Gage Brown, representing the 🇺🇸United States, are now part of the Ice Academy of Montreal in collaboration with their coaches, Joel Dear & Inese Bucevica. The skaters will share their time between New York and Montréal, w

2,046 likes, 54 comments - iceacademyofmontreal on April 3, 2023: "Oona & Gage Brown, representing the 🇺🇸United States, are now part of the Ice Academy of Montreal in collaboration with their coaches, Joel Dear & Inese Bucevica. The skaters will share their time between New York and Montréal...

www.instagram.com

Oh no.

 

[4everchan]

Oh no.

why? are you thinking it's a bad move? because of HB?

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I do agree about McNamara / Spirodonov though when it comes to gaining the most ground this season. I'd put Carreira / Ponomarenko right after them, I think. But with M / S in particular, they really showed improvement, and I'm glad because Lorraine had such a promising junior career with Quinn

Yes, Lorraine and Anton have a lot of passion and desire, and it shows. Anton has improved a lot to catch up with Lorraine. I loved Quinn & Lorraine together. They were a better match, but maybe Quinn lost his desire a bit after the struggle to come back after injury, or else he just wanted to move on. They came up to seniors at a time when there was simply too much depth and a blockade of talent at the top. Lorraine/ Anton have benefited from Caroline/ Michael moving on from WASA to their new coaches in Detroit. Caroline/ Michael on the other hand, have yet to benefit. I hope they get back to what makes them tick and to pushing the ice dance envelope next season.

I heard from commentary this season that Christina was helped a great deal from dedicated work with Scott Moir, while Anthony was rehabbing his injury. They have made progress under Scott & the Detroit suburb affiliate of I.AM, and they are lovely together. But the jury is still out on their future progress. Ice dance is such a tough field. Green/Parsons already surpassed them, and now, the new team of Zingas/ Kolesnik is poised to do the same.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Oh no.

I ask too, what do you mean by 'Oh no'? Are you thinking this signals that Hawayek/ Baker are not coming back?

 

[theblade]

The same scenario has unfolded in Canada.. Canada did not say wait two years. they said NO. Try applying again next year...... names will be public shortly.

Just to clarify: there are Canadian skaters wanting to skate for another country and Skate Canada said try again next year? Just not quite clear on the meaning of your post.

 

[moonvine]

I ask too, what do you mean by 'Oh no'? Are you thinking this signals that Hawayek/ Baker are not coming back?

No, I just don’t know why anyone would want to be the 100th out of 100 IAM teams. Isn’t anyone else sick of them? Just me? Ok.

 

[4everchan]

No, I just don’t know why anyone would want to be the 100th out of 100 IAM teams. Isn’t anyone else sick of them? Just me? Ok.

you know, I'd be sick of them if all their teams looked the same... but they do not and many have good programs... Last year : Papadakis Cizeron's Fauré FD was a masterpiece. Their teams' alien and zorro programs as well as the parrots were cool. This year, the parrots became white crows in a very masterful transformation and we got the pink panther and FBS's both programs. Many also mentioned how gorgeous HB's FD was. (wasn't a fan of their RD but that's me)... And let's not forget how great they are with Lim and Quan and others too. They seem to allow each team to flourish within their own strengths and personalities... If they were a one trick pony, then fine... but they do good work.

Do I think the Browns needed a coaching change? Yes. Do I think it's the only option for them? No... but as they wish to train with their current team as well and stay in NY, Montreal is probably the best option to get "help" and to get it "relatively close by". The Browns have a long road ahead of them before they make the world team for USA (as of now... who knows who will retire/split/fall behind). I think an arrangement that is partial can prepare them for the future, and perhaps a full-time move down the road, whether or not it is in Montreal. In my opinion, it's a very well thought move for them. It is also sending the message that they have received the feedback from the judges and that they are willing to make changes. And actually, IAM doesn't seem to play favourites as much as other schools... (I won't name anyone... but I am sure you know what I am talking about).

Anyways I apologize for the long post... I am just waiting another 15 minutes before WTT resumes (go Max and Deanna!)

 

[4everchan]

The same scenario has unfolded in Canada.. Canada did not say wait two years. they said NO. Try applying again next year...... names will be public shortly.

Well... it will be interesting... I have, of course, some ideas.... but there are a few teams that (don't hate me or do if you wish) I hope wouldn't get released.... Canada has left quite a lot of young/junior promising talent move away recently. We have dancers skating for New Zealand, Australia and Korea for instance, all of them are young and good teams. One of these teams beat our National Junior Champs at JWC. Canada has tons of "natural resources" in ice dance... but letting go too many teams at the same time could backfire, especially as some of our great teams are getting closer and closer to retirement. Skate Canada should make sure that they keep competitive teams in all "generations". Skate Canada, is investing on this young talent with the next gen... they also supported 9 senior ice dance teams last year on the National team. Not too long ago, Canada barely had more than one competitive team on the circuit every year. The popularity and success of ice dance in Canada, probably comes from the great career of Virtue and Moir as well as great training centers. Skate Canada is smart to keep a hold on some of its best talents, and as I said, have let many skaters switch countries even recently.

I won't go into speculation about the "wait next year" but I can see a few reasons about this, if it is true. (sorry, I get you are an insider and that you are not inventing this, but i am always careful about "rumours" until things are revealed by the skaters themselves), Ultimately, as a fan, I do not expect to ever find the many versions of a complicated story... but all I can say is that if Skate Canada was willing to let Lim and Quan, Charlotte and Jason skate for other countries as they are very talented young dancers, they cannot be all evil.