2022-23 Retirements, Splits and New Partnerships

[NaVi]

The Czech National Olympic Committee just passed a resolution calling for Russians to be banned from competitions. There's no way any Russian sports federation can support to what amounts to talent raiding... i.e. demand that no Russians can compete and then ask for an athlete who at least partly wants to switch countries because there is no ability to compete internationally. If you don't want any Russian athletes to compete then don't ask for one. Also, if you want to switch countries try not going to a country that wants your compatriots banned from competing.

Czech NOC says "united" against Russia and Belarus at Paris 2024 and qualifiers

The Czech Olympic Committee has approved a draft resolution opposing the participation of Russian and Belarusian athletes at next year’s Olympic Games...

www.insidethegames.biz

Italy OTOH is generally following IOC guidelines and he has an Italian father. It would be much easier for a Russian figure skating functionary to justify telling a higher sports functionary why they would let him switch countries.

But IMO, a 2 year sitout period from being contacted by another federation seems excessive for someone who hasn't competed internationally in a year and a half regardless that the latter was out of the Russian feds hands.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

The problem isn’t representing Czechia and therefore representing a different country won’t fix it. His problem currently is that the Russian skating federation is refusing to release him. They are saying that they would release him on spring 2025 (two years after they got the request to be released because he was on the national team). So this issue will remain the same regardless which country he will represent. And in terms of being ready for the next olympics, it doesn’t really make much difference whether they will represent Czechia or Italy - in both cases one will need to obtain a new citizenship. If they represent Czechia, he will need to get Czech citizenship. If they decided to represent Italy, his partner will need to get Italian citizenship. I would think getting Czech citizenship is faster, although I am not sure how much they are going to hold against him that he is Russian, considering the current situation. It is not as if Czechia needed this partnership- they have a good dance couple even without them.

Don't worry, I understand that the main issue is Dario getting released. But in a previous post on Monday, you seemed to indicate that although it was easy for Russian skaters to get Czech citizenship in the past, the war might mean that it would be difficult for Dario to get Czech citizenship now:

Before the war, very likely. Zhuk (pairs) also got Czech citizenship relatively quickly, but it may be different now considering that Cirisano is Russian. But even if he managed to get Czech citizenship, that would have no impact on his release from Russian skating federation.

That was what I was referring to when I said the bit you bolded. In hindsight, I should have edited both quotes into my post, but I didn't think of that at the time. I was more concerned with highlighting that it is unfair to say that Dario "is Russian".

Just picking up on that for a moment, yes, there is the possibility that his Mum could be Russian (I just plain don't know anything about her). But, there is also the possibilty that Dario is completely Italian, and merely moved to St. Petersburg to get better coaching (à la Daniel Grassl, although I am loathed to describe the setup he went to as "better"). He may not even have Russian citizenship.

Anyway, getting back to the matter of Czech citizenship, as I re-iterated last night (and as you acknowledge yourself), it is only the Olympics that citizenship is needed for. And they are unlikely to be selected for them anyway, because your existing partnerships (the Taschlers and the Mrázeks) are so good!

Thank you for sharing your perspective from inside the country. Let's face it: with being in the country, you would know more about the political situation and attitudes towards Russians than we would. And that is why your insights are invaluable to this discussion.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[hanca]

Don't worry, I understand that the main issue is Dario getting released. But in a previous post on Monday, you seemed to indicate that although it was easy for Russian skaters to get Czech citizenship in the past, the war might mean that it would be difficult for Dario to get Czech citizenship now:

That was what I was referring to when I said the bit you bolded. In hindsight, I should have edited both quotes into my post, but I didn't think of that at the time. I was more concerned with highlighting that it is unfair to say that Dario "is Russian".

Well, he lived in Russia for the majority of his life and has been representing Russia at international competitions, so that’s how he will be viewed - as Russian. The fact that he spent first five years of his life in Italy won’t make much difference. And why is it relevant? In the not so distant past Czechoslovakia was occupied by Russia for over twenty years. The war with Ukraine may bring back some very bad memories of what was going on in Czechia so I don’t think there will be much goodwill to do Russian citizens any favour (and that includes Cirisano). This could potentially have impact on how fast/or not so fast he will get Czech citizenship. Especially because Czechia has decent ice dancers so it is not as if they desperately needed him.

 

[SnowWhite]

Don't worry, I understand that the main issue is Dario getting released. But in a previous post on Monday, you seemed to indicate that although it was easy for Russian skaters to get Czech citizenship in the past, the war might mean that it would be difficult for Dario to get Czech citizenship now:



That was what I was referring to when I said the bit you bolded. In hindsight, I should have edited both quotes into my post, but I didn't think of that at the time. I was more concerned with highlighting that it is unfair to say that Dario "is Russian".

Just picking up on that for a moment, yes, there is the possibility that his Mum could be Russian (I just plain don't know anything about her). But, there is also the possibilty that Dario is completely Italian, and merely moved to St. Petersburg to get better coaching (à la Daniel Grassl, although I am loathed to describe the setup he went to as "better"). He may not even have Russian citizenship.

Anyway, getting back to the matter of Czech citizenship, as I re-iterated last night (and as you acknowledge yourself), it is only the Olympics that citizenship is needed for. And they are unlikely to be selected for them anyway, because your existing partnerships (the Taschlers and the Mrázeks) are so good!

Thank you for sharing your perspective from inside the country. Let's face it: with being in the country, you would know more about the political situation and attitudes towards Russians than we would. And that is why your insights are invaluable to this discussion.

CaroLiza_fan

According to his Wikipedia, he moved to St. Petersburg in 2006 (when he was ~5). Also his middle name is a Russian patronymic style. So I don't think he's completely Italian. Probably his mother is Russian. I would guess that him presumably having Italian citizenship would make it easier to another EU citizenship (at least compared to if he was only Russian).

 

[hanca]

According to his Wikipedia, he moved to St. Petersburg in 2006 (when he was ~5). Also his middle name is a Russian patronymic style. So I don't think he's completely Italian. Probably his mother is Russian. I would guess that him presumably having Italian citizenship would make it easier to another EU citizenship (at least compared to if he was only Russian).

No, it would not. The same way as Massot being French did not help him get German citizenship. Citizenships in Europe are granted based on certain conditions each country has set and whether someone already has any other citizenship from other European countries is not relevant. The only reason why being Russian may or may not go against him is because of the war, otherwise usually it would not be relevant.

Would it be easier to get Canadian citizenship if one has already US citizenship, as opposed to someone from, let’s say Japan?

 

[Ziotic]

No, it would not. The same way as Massot being French did not help him get German citizenship. Citizenships in Europe are granted based on certain conditions each country has set and whether someone already has any other citizenship from other European countries is not relevant. The only reason why being Russian may or may not go against him is because of the war, otherwise usually it would not be relevant.

Would it be easier to get Canadian citizenship if one has already US citizenship, as opposed to someone from, let’s say Japan?

Getting Canadian citizenship isn’t easier with US citizenship, they are completely different.

 

[theblade]

Can confirm. I grew up at a time when crossing to-fro from Canada to the US and vice-versa was much easier.

It is not at all easy to earn citizenship to either country doing it the legal way (paperwork, lawyers). I was born with one citizenship, took me 7 years of legal paperwork to obtain legal residency of the other.

 

[el henry]

No, it would not. The same way as Massot being French did not help him get German citizenship. Citizenships in Europe are granted based on certain conditions each country has set and whether someone already has any other citizenship from other European countries is not relevant. The only reason why being Russian may or may not go against him is because of the war, otherwise usually it would not be relevant.

Would it be easier to get Canadian citizenship if one has already US citizenship, as opposed to someone from, let’s say Japan?

They can speak for themselves, but this is exactly how I read the OP's post: the effect of current events. (being vague only because this is the Edge).

 

[hanca]

Getting Canadian citizenship isn’t easier with US citizenship, they are completely different.

That’s exactly my point. The same way, having citizenship of one country within Europe doesn’t help citizenship of other country in Europe.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Well, he lived in Russia for the majority of his life and has been representing Russia at international competitions, so that’s how he will be viewed - as Russian. The fact that he spent first five years of his life in Italy won’t make much difference. And why is it relevant?

Because describing him as just "Russian" is disrepectful to the Italian side of his family. It is saying that they don't matter. But, his Italian ancestry is an integral part of who he is. Just like his Russian ancestry would be if he has it. (I wish we could find out for definite about his mother, so that we don't have to talk in ifs and maybes).

It is a pet hate of mine when people of mixed parentage (be it different races; or different nationalities; or different religions; etc.) are described according to just one side of their family. It's not fair to the side that is being left out.

According to his Wikipedia, he moved to St. Petersburg in 2006 (when he was ~5). Also his middle name is a Russian patronymic style. So I don't think he's completely Italian. Probably his mother is Russian.

That would be my guess too.

Having a patronym isn't necessarily an indication of him having Russian family, though. I remember having a discussion about patronyms one time, and the issue of kids whose Dads were not on the scene came up (for example, Julia Lipnitskaya). And somebody said that, so as not to have the kid stick out like a sore thumb, they would often be given a patronym using the maternal grandfather's name, or else be given a made up patronym using a random name.

NOTE: Julia does actually use her Dad's name as her patronym.​

Say Dario was from an all-Italian family. When they moved to Russia, they could have decided to add a patronym to his name so that he would fit in better with the local kids. You know what kids can be like, picking on kids that are in some way different. Yes, the rest of his name is completely Italian, but having a patronym might help a bit.

This might be a good place to bring in a skater who is definitely half Italian and half Russian, and who adjusted his name according to what country he was representing. In Russia, he was known as Ivan Bariev, using his Russian Dad's surname. In Italy, he was known as Ivan Righini, using his Italian Mum's surname. It's an extreme example, but it does show perfectly that people do adjust their names to fit in to their surroundings.

Alternatively, it could be the case that officials have added in a patronym when Dario has submitted forms. I have heard of cases in the Czech Republic where officials have automatically added the -ová suffix to the surnames of female foreigners when they have applied for things, whether it has been written on the form or not. And that it has caused major problems when they have travelled to other countries because the name on the Czech-issued documents isn't exactly the same as what is on their other documents.

Anyway, whatever Dario's family background is, I hope that something can be done so that circumstances beyond their control do not force them to either be stuck in limbo for years, or split before they even get to compete together.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[4everchan]

What matters is how someone views their own heritage.

 

[hanca]

Because describing him as just "Russian" is disrepectful to the Italian side of his family. It is saying that they don't matter. But, his Italian ancestry is an integral part of who he is. Just like his Russian ancestry would be if he has it. (I wish we could find out for definite about his mother, so that we don't have to talk in ifs and maybes).

It is a pet hate of mine when people of mixed parentage (be it different races; or different nationalities; or different religions; etc.) are described according to just one side of their family. It's not fair to the side that is being left out.

But we are not discussing here his identity. We are discussing what he will be considered as for the passport purposes. That’s a completely different matter. As much as his ancestry matter to him and his family, it is not as if he is going to be considered Italian for the passport purposes. When he applies for Czech citizenship, he will be considered Russian. I am sorry it is your pet hate, but that’s the reality!

 

[Sai Bon]

What matters is how someone views their own heritage.

That is true, but it's often something that evolves over time. When you are young, you tend to want to fit in with your peers and that may entail playing down your heritage. I'm ethnically Japanese, but very English in my head, because I spent 6 years at school in England from a young age. My parents compartmentalized my life so I had no confusion about my identity, but I spoke, thought, and probably dreamed in English except when I was with Japanese people. I knew I was Japanese, but I felt and wanted to be English. Several decades later, I am much more comfortable being Japanese, though I am now a Kiwi! People still remark about my English accent, but I don't feel English anymore and see myself as Japanese Kiwi.

Sorry about the OT ramble, but what I'm trying to say is that although I sympathise with athletes who cannot compete for their own country for whatever reason, I'm against taking citizenship of any country who lets you represent them unless you have or feel some connection to that country and are prepared to demonstrate that by living there, learning the language, etc. For example, although I loved Takahashi/Tran, I totally supported Mervin Tran's commitment to being Canadian. It may have been easier for Narumi Takahashi to become Canadian, but she too was committed to being Japanese, and we should respect that.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

That is true, but it's often something that evolves over time. When you are young, you tend to want to fit in with your peers and that may entail playing down your heritage. I'm ethnically Japanese, but very English in my head, because I spent 6 years at school in England from a young age. My parents compartmentalized my life so I had no confusion about my identity, but I spoke, thought, and probably dreamed in English except when I was with Japanese people. I knew I was Japanese, but I felt and wanted to be English. Several decades later, I am much more comfortable being Japanese, though I am now a Kiwi! People still remark about my English accent, but I don't feel English anymore and see myself as Japanese Kiwi.

Thank you Sai Bon for telling us your story. I knew you were in New Zealand and had Japanese ancestry, but I didn't realise that you had actually grown up in England.

It is so good to hear that you are comfortable in who you are. I do like it when people from ethnic minorities are brought up to know their heritage and culture, like you have been. It is really sad when people are not able to speak their ancestral language. (I know from personal experience that it is difficult to learn languages. But if you are immersed in the language at home from a young age, it is bound to be easier).

And as a side-note, thank you for mentioning dreams, because I had often wondered what language people in your sort of situation dream in. Do the people that appear in dreams speak the dreamer's ancestral language, or the language that is spoken where the dreamer lives? I know that whenever people who are from other countries appear in my dreams, they speak English. But, that is the only language that I am fluent in. I would guess that people who are multi-lingual would have multi-lingual dreams, but I don't know.

Dreams are a fascinating topic anyway, but this particular aspect is something that I have long been curious about.

Sorry about the OT ramble, but what I'm trying to say is that although I sympathise with athletes who cannot compete for their own country for whatever reason, I'm against taking citizenship of any country who lets you represent them unless you have or feel some connection to that country and are prepared to demonstrate that by living there, learning the language, etc. For example, although I loved Takahashi/Tran, I totally supported Mervin Tran's commitment to being Canadian. It may have been easier for Narumi Takahashi to become Canadian, but she too was committed to being Japanese, and we should respect that.

That is exactly how I feel. I don't like it when people switch to countries they have no connection with, and don't even attempt to build a connection with.

But, at the same time, it is different with Pairs and Ice Dance. We all know that skaters often have to look overseas for a partner. And it inevitably means that the resulting partnership gets described according to the credentials of one of the skaters, while the other skater's credentials get ignored. That isn't fair.

This is one more reason why I hate the whole concept of representing a country. You should be representing your club and your coach. That is much fairer, and also more accurate. It is your club and your coach that has made you into the sportsperson that you are; not your country.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[4everchan]

This is one more reason why I hate the whole concept of representing a country. You should be representing your club and your coach. That is much fairer, and also more accurate. It is your club and your coach that has made you into the sportsperson that you are; not your country.

Sport is funded by the state. Some states more than others. Like it or not, the Olympic games bring money to athletes via their national sports federations. So the country is actually a big part of it, especially in the case of a Russian ice dancer for instance....

 

[Diana Delafield]

The lead story today on cbc.ca/sports/olympics/winter/figure-skating is Keegan Messing's announcement of his retirement, including a video of his performance at this year's Canadians. (Wasn't sure what thread to put this in, so feel free to move it wherever is more appropriate.)

 

[NanaPat]

An official retirement announcement from/for Keegan Messing. He intends to keep skating in shows!

 

[Diana Delafield]

During the perpetual decluttering here, I recently unearthed a stack of "Blades on Ice" magazines from twenty or so years ago and of course had to re-read them. In the July-August 2006 issue, in a "100 Years of Ladies Skating" article by Dale Mitch, I read an early example of country-changing, by Hedy Stenuf of Austria.

"It is conceivable that the Stars and Stripes could have been raised for a U.S. victory in 1940 [if Worlds had not been cancelled for eight years after the war began in late 1939]. Hedy Stenuf, who lived in Vienna, represented Austria in the 1935 Worlds, but with Germany about to take over Austria, she moved to France, representing that country in 1937. Although she stayed in Europe to train, Stenuf further changed her allegiance and, representing the U.S., Stenuf won the bronze in 1938" and the silver in 1939.

She must have moved to the USA at or soon after the start of the war, although neither the magazine nor her brief entry in Wikipedia says so, because she won silver in pairs at the US championships in 1940 with an American partner, Skippy Baxter. She seems to have retired from competition at that point. She died in Florida as Hedy Byram in 2010. Anybody know or know of her in the USA?

 

[skylark]

She must have moved to the USA at or soon after the start of the war, although neither the magazine nor her brief entry in Wikipedia says so, because she won silver in pairs at the US championships in 1940 with an American partner, Skippy Baxter. She seems to have retired from competition at that point. She died in Florida as Hedy Byram in 2010. Anybody know or know of her in the USA?

No, but I found your whole post very interesting.

 

[Andrea82]

New Ice Dance couple for Poland
Olivia Oliver / Filip Bojanowski

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Training in Egna with Zanni & co.