2022 CS Finlandia Trophy Rhythm Dance

[La Rhumba]

I thought the Taschlers were robbed! It was a lively Latin program with great rhythmical choreography, beautifully danced by both and both have great skating skills. Horribly underscored.
The Canadians in 1st, as usual, she shines in this kind of performance whilst he skates on 2 feet with her dancing around him. Too much Kilian hold for such a high score.
Hawayek & Baker looked very unprepared. He had stylish rhythmical Latin body shapes and movements. She did not. At all. Overscored. But adored the retro music.
Juulia & Mathias, usually I love them but really did not enjoy this routine much. That opening track used by Anthony & Cristina last season, didn't fit the correct Tempo and had to have a Rhumba beat dubbed on, so why choose it?
Green & Parsons, I know they had a late start to the season through no fault of their own, having to switch coaches, but slightly disappointed in the choreo for this, apart from one incredible lift. The syncopated vocal music got tedious in the reprise after the Rhumba which was far too short, and they deserve better. At their best they should be on the Podium but this RD might need reworking.

 

[4everchan]

I liked FBS the most....and by far... but yeah.. I admit I am biased but I have been critical of some of their choices before This RD was strong and didn't go into the usual stereotypical songs for a latin/tango theme... Packaging was nicely done. It looks like they have taken this seriously. Nik seemed more comfortable than in previous years where he has been injured.
I was very disappointed with both American teams... I expected MUCH better.. I don't find HB's concept to be working... it's just not funny nor quirky enough to work... if they want to make a show program out of this, it could be really good.. but if they want it for a RD either they find a way to be sharper and have better timing or just drop this theme...
Green Parsons, I guess the new coaching situation may take some time to adjust.. that program was zzzzzzzz.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Well, that's ice dance judging. The top three teams should be the Danadians, Hawayek/ Baker, and Green/Parsons. In fact, there isn't much separating G/P from the Danadians and H/P in terms of talent, performance ability, and execution. It's just all about seniority and politics. No way should G/P be behind Turkkila/Versluis and Taschlerova/ Taschler. And that small amount of percentage points behind T/T?! SMH! Total manipulative political judging. The judges are clearly telling G/P to wait their turn. I hope G/P ignore that dismissive unfairness and continue being good and standing out with excellence!

The rest of the scoring was unsurprising. I expected Ling/Wein to be lower in the standings, but I thought they deserved a few more points. Orihara/Pirinen are a very good up-and-coming team. I thought they would get around 69, so at 68.81, I was close. The judges shafted G/P though with that low-ball score.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Hmmm, ah well I see some not liking G/P's and H/B's program choices. LOL! When H/B's program started, I thought, 'Oh, cheesy,' but as they went along, I got more into it. I feel they did an excellent job with it and kept the character of the program and music throughout. Overall, I'd give the Danadians a slight edge here. But seriously, there's really nothing separating the Danadians, H/B, and G/P in terms of talent and ability. Even for those who say they dislike H/B's and G/P's program choices, you can't deny their skill, brilliant talent and performance execution.

To suggest that G/P somehow need to make an adjustment based on having switched coaches/ training camps is pure wishful thinking and just a cliche assessment, based on what the judges did here (which anyone with eyes and knowledge of ice dance knows is about seniority and politics). And even if G/P are making adjustments, it certainly was not apparent from how well they performed in the RD. They showed range, confidence, and brilliance, as usual. Granted G/P are still a fairly young team, but with out-sized talent and creativity, which was so obvious last season.

 

[sisinka]

I thought the Taschlers were robbed! It was a lively Latin program with great rhythmical choreography, beautifully danced by both and both have great skating skills. Horribly underscored.
....

Many couples are trying latin movements on the ice, and most of them are in trouble to incorporate those movements while gliding. It finishes with stops or hops across the ice during latin moves. What I appreciate about Natalie & Filip's choreo is the fact that choreographer understood the need to connect both latin moves and gliding / edge work. And the couple sells it!

Both Natalie & Filip and Juulia & Matthias got the same Skating Skills points - 7.96. There is nothing better than the straight comparison.

https://files.fm/u/p4uk34smn


Let's take a look at execution of difficult turn - Forward Outside Rocker. I added Kaitlin & Jean-Luc.

https://files.fm/u/7kdqj2uf9
(videos are available till December 8)
Natalie & Filip - clean + deep edges, Juulia & Matthias - not great, but visible forward outside edge, backward arc - rather flat edge, Kaitlin & Jean-Luc - rather flat forward edge, deep backward outside edge, during backward arc Kaitlin started to go forward with her centre of gravity - holding arc for longer she would start to scratch the ice.

Even from short excerpts it is visible that Natalie & Filip's SS are above Jullia & Matthias'. Judges didn't mention it yet.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I thought the Taschlers were robbed! It was a lively Latin program with great rhythmical choreography, beautifully danced by both and both have great skating skills. Horribly underscored.
The Canadians in 1st, as usual, she shines in this kind of performance whilst he skates on 2 feet with her dancing around him. Too much Kilian hold for such a high score.
Hawayek & Baker looked very unprepared. He had stylish rhythmical Latin body shapes and movements. She did not. At all. Overscored. But adored the retro music.
Juulia & Mathias, usually I love them but really did not enjoy this routine much. That opening track used by Anthony & Cristina last season, didn't fit the correct Tempo and had to have a Rhumba beat dubbed on, so why choose it?
Green & Parsons, I know they had a late start to the season through no fault of their own, having to switch coaches, but slightly disappointed in the choreo for this, apart from one incredible lift. The syncopated vocal music got tedious in the reprise after the Rhumba which was far too short, and they deserve better. At their best they should be on the Podium but this RD might need reworking.

The Taschlers definitely were good, but I don't think they are better than G/P. T/V are good too, but a bit over-scored due to seniority politics. Criticism of G/P's program choices and choreo is more about preference and subjectivity. Plus, all skaters, and especially ice dancers tweak their programs throughout the season, pacing themselves to be at a higher level at the end of the season.

H/B tend to be over-criticized more than they should be. I get your critique re their program, especially the opening, but I thought it got better, and they stayed in character. The score is not out of line for H/B. Maybe you are just used to them being dumped on. Probably since H/B have been seniors longer, judges said 'We'll reward you as podium-worthy and dump on your younger teammates.'

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Many couples are trying latin movements on the ice, and most of them are in trouble to incorporate those movements while gliding. It finishes with stops or hops across the ice during latin moves. What I appreciate about Natalie & Filip's choreo is the fact that choreographer understood the need to connect both latin moves and gliding / edge work. And the couple sells it!

Both Natalie & Filip and Juulia & Matthias got the same Skating Skills points - 7.96. There is nothing better than the straight comparison.

https://files.fm/u/p4uk34smn


Let's take a look at execution of difficult turn - Forward Outside Rocker. I added Kaitlin & Jean-Luc.

https://files.fm/u/7kdqj2uf9
(videos are available till December 8)
Natalie & Filip - clean + deep edges, Juulia & Matthias - not great, but visible forward outside edge, backward arc - rather flat edge, Kaitlin & Jean-Luc - rather flat forward edge, deep backward outside edge, during backward arc Kaitlin started to go forward with her centre of gravity - holding arc for longer she would start to scratch the ice.

Even from short excerpts it is visible that Natalie & Filip's SS are above Jullia & Matthias'. Judges didn't mention it yet.

Ice dance judges in general base their manipulative scoring upon seniority and country politics/ rep politics. Ability and tech expertise isn't always taken into account. This is especially true when the talent level is very close between competitors. Also, factor in judges' subjectivity re music and program choices, which is probably just as or more nitpicky than fans' subjective viewpoints. LOL

 

[sisinka]

Loved Green/Parsons today, ...

. Help me understand the lower score, what did I miss?

Caroline G & Michael P - their Pattern step sequence was level 2, Midline step sequence level 1 (her) and 2 (him).

Which means that during Pattern steps only 2 difficult turns were clean (from 4 taken into account) + at least one dance hold was counted (Kilian, Waltz / Tango, Foxtrot).

Level 1 Midline steps means that only one difficult turn was counted, Level 2 requires three type of difficult turns executed well.

During Midline Step sequences I had the idea that Caroline was struggling technically quite a lot. For example:
https://files.fm/u/a73ctav24 ...
opening Forward Outside Choctaw - Caroline - forward outside edge was not great, but visible, than she goes on flat edge before changing legs, backward inside edge is there (not sure about spreading the ice during backward arc - video is low quality) - this is wrongly executed difficult turn (you must go from outside edge to inside edge, no flat edge). Caroline's double twizzle - poor quality video, but she scratches the ice during turns, because she doesn't centre well on the blade (she travels from front part to back part of the blade) - this difficult turn couldn't be counted as well.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

^^ Eh! It's always easy to justify after-the-fact what the judges decided to do. There's so much room for manipulation on the judges' part, and 'justified' interpretation of the scoring on the part of fans. When not much separates competitors, manipulation is rather easy. It's always about politics, reputation and seniority, preference and subjectivity. Actual ability tends to factor in less than seniority and politics, particularly when skating talent is on a par between top competitors.

 

[sisinka]

...There's so much room for manipulation on the judges' part, and 'justified' interpretation of the scoring on the part of fans. ... It's always about politics, reputation and seniority, preference and subjectivity.

How to solve this problem and make figure skating more objective? What are your suggestions?

If figure skaters are the victims of subjective system, how to help them?

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

^^ Well, @sisinka, that's always the issue fans grapple with and often give judges a pass on too because fans are so used to the politics, inefficiency, and stultified unwillingness of the powers-that-be to institute viable, beneficial and meaningful change. There's too many conflicts of interest, and the sport has since forever been run in a Mom-Pop fashion. The way the sport developed historically was faulty. There were always issues with politics and undue influence in the judging, along with complicated scoring systems. It was also a very elitist, snobbish sport for the wealthy and leisure classes. A lot of performative lip service has happened over the years, but not a great deal of change, despite the sport being somewhat more open to diversity, at least on the surface, for p.r. purposes. For the most part, it's still not an inclusive sport.

The real excitement always happens off of competitive ice. Show skating and adagio skating is where a lot of unique moves, particularly in pairs, originated. Ice dance and pairs are very connected in how they developed during the early 20th-century**, albeit that ice dance did not become an official ISU-competitive discipline at Worlds until 1952 (prior to that there was unofficial and special exhibition inclusion at Worlds). Yet, ice-dancing was not included as an Olympic sport until 1972. At 1970 Worlds, the U.S. team (Judy Schwomeyer*/ James Sladky) were clearly superior, but came in second behind the Russians due to politics and body-shaming perceptions by a judge who openly critiqued the shape and size of Judy's thighs. Meanwhile, the male Russian, Gorshkov, was no match in ability to partner, Pakhomova.

I mention this as an example of the historic problems with judging, especially in ice dance. There have been incremental changes with judging and streamlining of ice dance competitively, but such developments are rudimentary and run in cycles. Of course, there's been recent invigoration via the North American/ European creative collaboration in Montreal. Also, pairs and ice dance have been involved in exciting cross-fertilization, particularly the ice dance influence on pairs in recent years. As far as the judging, unless there is a genuine willingness to change by everyone involved, the sport will continue to meander along frustratingly, with politics and inadequate, often unfair judging, as usual.

* Judy Schwomeyer married and became Judy Sladky. She played the occasional character of Alice Snuffleupagus on Sesame Street.

** A good historical reference:
Figure Skating in the Formative Years: Singles, Pairs, and the Expanding Role of Women, by James R. Hines, 2015.

 

[sisinka]

^^ Well, @sisinka, ...

Thank you for the answer.

I am naturally optimistic. I don't want to think that nothing can be done.

Overall mark consists of base value, GOE and Program Components. Looking at score of two best couples after Rhythm dance - base value is about 37% of overall mark, GOE 19%, Program Components 43%.

Technical panel has strict and complicated rules how to judge levels. Thanks to video record, it is not difficult to make a control of this.

GOE and Components give space for judges to give what they want (although they have recommendation in Handbook).

How about creating public press conference after each part of competition with at least 4 judges? Judges would have to explain their points for first 6 couples. Plus video record with comparison of those couples in each element plus Skating Skills. Press conference would go simultaneously with each judge in own room (not allowing colective work).

It is easy to give judgement from ,,behind the curtain". Defending judging publically knowing that ,,country" or ,,coaching team" or ,,they are so cute" reasons can't be used....

Judges should realise that they are influencing life of athletes who spend more than 15-20-25 years on the ice. Going through pain and injuries. Sacrificing ,,normal life", not having enough time for family and friends. Struggling with school / university demands thanks to lack of time. Living apart from their families.

Judges can be under pressure of giving ,,correct" points for ,,correct" couples...but this is not an excuse... feelings of those athletes who are underscored despite they did everything right are much worse.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

@sisinka, fans can come up with good ideas and suggestions all day long. But it won't go any further unless you personally have insider contacts or significant influence. Or, else start a grassroots movement for judicious change, which gains significant, influential support and backing by decision-makers. The rest is just fan debates and pipe dreams. Also, let's face it that the ISU is in the business of protecting the judges, not caring about fairness to athletes. That's why the 'anonymous' judging policy was in place for so long.
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General comment: I try to keep in mind when I watch skating, particularly ice dancing, that there are a lot of athletes with equally amazing talent. Exclaiming about who we felt should have won in close contests where the abilities are even, is based mostly on who we personally favor.