2023 World Championships Free Dance

[TontoK]

I hope Chock and Bates retire to make room for some new talent but I think victory can be intoxicating and I think they'll pull a Virtue and Moir and stick around.

In your own life, do you make decisions that align with your own views and aspirations? Or do you make those decisions based on the best interests of your competitors?

 

[Diana Delafield]

from memory.. it would be the same for Canadians : only two.. Bourne and Kraatz and Virtue and Moir... a few teams got very close, Dubreuil Lauzon and Weaver Poje... but no candy...

Correct. I checked The Almanac of Canadian Figure Skating. In the same time span in pairs, though: Dafoe/Bowden (twice), Wagner/Paul (four times), the Jelineks, Underhill/Martini, Brasseur/Eisler, Sale/Pelletier, Duhamel/Radford. And a slew of silver and bronze medals. Something in the Canadian psyche? We like to take risks (skiers, snowboarders et al)? For a long time, meaning when I was young and in my pairs competition years, dance wasn't anywhere near as athletic as it is now and I had to be bribed to learn the compulsory dances. Too tame. I wanted to be flying, up, down, over, and sideways. For the Europeans, dance had more participants and this bred more competition at home in the practice rinks, trying to outdo each other, with predictable results visible on the world/Olympic ice. And the Asian countries are another step behind North Americans, but catching up -- some countries got in on dance earlier than others, but I have a Chinese friend close to my age who learned basic pair skating because in China it was the only way she and her boyfriend were allowed to skate together in the 60s and 70s. Ice dance and the close physical contact in public was "unseemly", as was showing much emotion on the ice. Now she watches Chinese ice dancers on TV and sighs in envy.

 

[leela46]

Hi!, long time lurker, first time poster. I have a family member who occasionally judges ice dancing. I asked him today his opinion of the judging today. He thought the judging was excellent and completely agreed with the results. Personally I would have put G/P in second and G/ F third. I thought C/B won easily. I'm hoping to attend the World Championships next year, so I hope all the current teams remain together.

 

[labgoat]

I hope Chock and Bates retire to make room for some new talent but I think victory can be intoxicating and I think they'll pull a Virtue and Moir and stick around.

I wonder if some people in Canada are saying the same thing about Gilles/Poirier. When you turn it around like that how does it feel?

 

[labgoat]

I've seen a lot of comments about wishing Green/Parsons and how they should've done another modern art program. They got one, only it was from Chock & Bates and everyone decided they no longer wanted one.

The couple wanted to tell their story and a gave us a program about how their relationship started with a spark of interest, fanned into a a very full career of memorable skates and a love story. It ends with the knowledge that the time was coming to extinguish that career and move on in life. The story only really came into focus when they decided to use the wind and flame as a metaphor for what they wanted to say.

 

[skatedreamer]

Hi!, long time lurker, first time poster. I have a family member who occasionally judges ice dancing. I asked him today his opinion of the judging today. He thought the judging was excellent and completely agreed with the results. Personally I would have put G/P in second and G/ F third. I thought C/B won easily. I'm hoping to attend the World Championships next year, so I hope all the current teams remain together.

Welcome to GS!

And thanks so much for the judging perspective; I really appreciate it because C/B's win somehow made me feel almost....guilty (don't ask). As for G/P, completely agree with you. IMO, both Canadian teams deserved more.

 

[LadyB]

Australian and British judges...not liking the Canadian teams... so much for Commonweatlh... especially since without IAM, there would be very little ice dance in the Commonweath countries (outside of Canada)...

As far as the British judges are concerned, they had their own team as medal contenders and politics, sadly, always is, was and will be part of judging.
Besides, there always have been so many Brits going on on the highest level ...even though for other countries. Can't deny them their talent for dancing. If they were all paired with each other as Team GB, I think that would be recognised.
Luckily, British talent has been recognised abroad. A bit like Russians turning up everywhere to compete for other nations, and as far as ID is concerned, Brits are well represented and most of them started their journey in the UK.
But yeah, the Brits don't support/promote their talent, high-performance athletes have to go somewhere else. So thanks to IAM, Scarboro FS and RusFed. C'mon, Christopher Dean and Robin Cousins, pull your weights a bit more.

 

[IceDancingQueen]

Have finally caught up on the competition. I am sad for G/P but on the whole I am okay with the placements. I think G/P did an incredible job to get Bronze considering Piper had surgery only a few months ago. But I don’t think they skated it as fast or with as much ice coverage as they would have, had they been able to continue training without a break for recovery like the top 2 teams. They did an amazing job to maintain their programmes to the level they were at before Piper’s appendectomy, which is how their programmes felt to me - maintained but not necessarily grown since the GPF. I say this as someone who really wanted them to get the gold.

C/B’s programme has grown all year and they skated it with a lot of flow and attack. It’s a shame about the fall - I do question how their skating skills score wasn’t affected more by that. As others have said, they still would have won with 9s across the board so I don’t think their score should have been as high as it was. But I am happy for them - just wish they could have gotten the title performing it without a fall as that will make the win not as sweet as it could have been, which is a shame for them. But yay, they are finally world champions! They clearly put in a lot of work to develop their skills and that FD.

G/F never do it for me and I don’t think their programme has grown as much as C/B’s but despite the bobbles from Marco, again they had a lot of speed and flow across the ice, so I’m okay with them taking silver. I think the top 3 teams are all very deserving as they have skill and maturity and have all had to overcome a lot of ups and downs in their careers and given G/P’s surgery, I’m not surprised by these results at all.

The one placement I really don’t understand is FB/S being behind the Brits. I love both teams but I don’t quite understand how the Brits are so close to FB/S in scoring because I thought the Canes were far superior in the FD and should have been AT LEAST a couple points ahead. It also felt very strange to me that there was very few changes in placements for teams in rankings between RD and FD - like I think only 3 or 4 teams changed rankings? So there did feel like a bit of a pre-determined vibe very early on in the competition but that could just be a coincidence.

I know eveyone hates the Taschlers programme - I don’t mind it, but my word they are breathtaking to watch skate. The way they fly around the ice is just incredible. I feel for the Finns as usual, as they are such beautiful skaters but kinda like C/B and FB/S to an extent (but not in this competition) in seeming destined to have mistakes in their programmes at major competitions. I thought Green/Parsons skated their FD the best they had all season. Overall I thought it was a great competition - the level in ice dance is so high and so many teams got SB. I think the ISU does need to do something about the GOE scoring at +5 because it can make the comp sometimes feel like the old judging system which will make it hard to win new viewers.

How exciting though that Finland and Czech get two teams next year, Brits get 2 and Canada is back to 3. Hopefully G/P stay on another year to try for gold at home!

 

[Andrina]

For me, the 1st place is clearly a lifetime achievement award. A well-deserved and 100% fair award.

C/B were leading after the short dance at the Worlds in 2015. But they didn't get the gold. Then, Shibutani took the lead, but C/B were still fighting, trying new styles and reinventing themselves.

Then, it was time for H/D. C/B were again second, but they kept delivering. They gave us the snake dance, the daft punk program. And when this season, the main rivals were not there anymore, they kept trying new things. At the beginning of the season, many of us were thinking that H/B should have won at Skate America. To reply, C/B changed the music, the dress, they improved their dance, and kept evolving as they always did. I have never been their fan, but I have a huge respect towards them. They deserved this gold as nobody else.

And as for the fall... I remember one Canadian team that had a fall in the free dance in 2017 but still won the gold at the Worlds. And unlike for C/B, their programs that season were not outstanding or innovative and had zero wow-moments. I also remember how that same team got their personal best in FD improved by 4 points within a week at the Olympics in 2018. This achievement was so noticeable that the Skate Canada president even got a rule named after her. So, I think it's ironic that in 2023 another Canadian team, G/P, lost their gold in favor of a team who made a fall in their FD. Ironic and fair.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

For me, the 1st place is clearly a lifetime achievement award. A well-deserved and 100% fair award.

C/B were leading after the short dance at the Worlds in 2015. But they didn't get the gold. Then, Shibutani took the lead, but C/B were still fighting, trying new styles and reinventing themselves.

Then, it was time for H/D. C/B were again second, but they kept delivering. They gave us the snake dance, the daft punk program. And when this season, the main rivals were not there anymore, they kept trying new things. At the beginning of the season, many of us were thinking that H/B should have won at Skate America. To reply, C/B changed the music, the dress, they improved their dance, and kept evolving as they always did. I have never been their fan, but I have a huge respect towards them. They deserved this gold as nobody else.

And as for the fall... I remember one Canadian team that had a fall in the free dance in 2017 but still won the gold at the Worlds. And unlike for C/B, their programs that season were not outstanding or innovative and had zero wow-moments. I also remember how that same team got their personal best in FD improved by 4 points within a week at the Olympics in 2018. This achievement was so noticeable that the Skate Canada president even got a rule named after her. So, I think it's ironic that in 2023 another Canadian team, G/P, lost their gold in favor of a team who made a fall in their FD. Ironic and fair.

Yeah, it doesn't work that way. Why don't you just say the names: Virtue and Moir. The difference b/t their 4 points increase at the Olympics in 2018 and what happened with C/B are two totally different things and you don't just say we'll just compare them and get revenge on them with C/B's scores in 5 years LOL.
To delve into this further, you obviously want to also compare V/M 2017 Worlds to P/C. GO look at the actual sheets for the judges scores and make sure you look at SD and FD there. V/M had a 7 point +/- lead over P/C after the SD. P/C actually WON the FD by about 4 points +/-. Sorry but that wasn't going to make up the difference to beat V/M.

It's obvious there is a huge dislike with you towards V/M here, might as well just outright admit it.

There is a HUGE difference b/t the skating quality and abilities of the two teams you are trying to make a worlds comparison to here with 6 years between.

They are both great in their own ways but there is no comparison whatsoever here. (V/M and C/B).

So, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

But as others have pointed out: There were judges who failed to know the rulebooks and sadly at the wrong time. There should have not been scores given out the other day over 9.50 when a fall was involved. The ISU wrote the rule book, and they should make their judges follow it to a T and enforce penalties to the judges who don't.

 

[Andrina]

Yeah, it doesn't work that way. Why don't you just say the names: Virtue and Moir. The difference b/t their 4 points increase at the Olympics in 2018 and what happened with C/B are two totally different things and you don't just say we'll just compare them and get revenge on them with C/B's scores in 5 years LOL.
To delve into this further, you obviously want to also compare V/M 2017 Worlds to P/C. GO look at the actual sheets for the judges scores and make sure you look at SD and FD there. V/M had a 7 point +/- lead over P/C after the SD. P/C actually WON the FD by about 4 points +/-. Sorry but that wasn't going to make up the difference to beat V/M.

It's obvious there is a huge dislike with you towards V/M here, might as well just outright admit it.

There is a HUGE difference b/t the skating quality and abilities of the two teams you are trying to make a worlds comparison to here with 6 years between.

They are both great in their own ways but there is no comparison whatsoever here. (V/M and C/B).

So, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

But as others have pointed out: There were judges who failed to know the rulebooks and sadly at the wrong time. There should have not been scores given out the other day over 9.50 when a fall was involved. The ISU wrote the rule book, and they should make their judges follow it to a T and enforce penalties to the judges who don't.

I totally agree that it is ridiculous to think that judges were waiting 6 years to get a revenge. As much ridiculous as saying that Canadian teams got robbed or should have won against a performance with a fall whereas a few years ago a Canadian team was exactly at the position of those who won with a fall.

And yes, it goes with no doubts that a performance with a fall should not have gotten marks above 9.50 in an ideal world. But as this was not the case in 2017, why should it be in 2023 ?

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I totally agree that it is ridiculous to think that judges were waiting 6 years to get a revenge. As much ridiculous as saying that Canadian teams got robbed or should have won against a performance with a fall whereas a few years ago a Canadian team was exactly at the position of those who won with a fall.

And yes, it goes with no doubts that a performance with a fall should not have gotten marks above 9.50 in an ideal world. But as this was not the case in 2017, why should it be in 2023 ?

You completely missed the point I was making.

There were other teams in ice dance in recent years well, since 2010 that have fallen and won by a large margin but let's not mention them .

ETA: The V/M Fall in 2017 Worlds FD didn't get a 1 point deduction, it did not disrupt the flow of the program like C/B's did this year btw.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/wc2017/wc2017_IceDance_FD_Scores.pdf

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season2223/wc2023/data0405.pdf

There you go. Go ahead and look.

Here I'll help further.

 

[TontoK]

A couple of things:

Do we have any confirmation that any team is retiring? My recollection from the press conference (I was listening with only half an ear) is that they all said they would consider options, but nobody said they were done competitively.

If there are rules about PCS scoring limitations in a program with a fall, why doesn't the ISU simply implement those limitations into the computer? There could be a notification that says, "Maximum score for this component is 9.5" and then the system could refuse to accept a score above that?

We've come a long way since the days of judges awarding marks while standing on the ice with little flip cards. Why not fully utilize the technology?

 

[4everchan]

A couple of things:

Do we have any confirmation that any team is retiring? My recollection from the press conference (I was listening with only half an ear) is that they all said they would consider options, but nobody said they were done competitively.

If there are rules about PCS scoring limitations in a program with a fall, why doesn't the ISU simply implement those limitations into the computer? There could be a notification that says, "Maximum score for this component is 9.5" and then the system could refuse to accept a score above that?

We've come a long way since the days of judges awarding marks while standing on the ice with little flip cards. Why not fully utilize the technology?

from CBC TV broadcast
Nik and Lolo will be competing next year
Piper and Paul have not made such a decision yet. They will think about it when doing the spring shows.
I have no info about anyone else.

 

[Diana Delafield]

We've come a long way since the days of judges awarding marks while standing on the ice with little flip cards. Why not fully utilize the technology?

I realize this is a serious discussion, so I'll apologize in advance for a little levity on the side. Back in the years mentioned when judges held up cards with the marks, there was a cartoon that had been clipped and posted on bulletin boards in every rink and club locker room where I skated. A row of solemn-faced judges are holding up two cards each with a mark, 5.2, 5.4, etc. Except for the last judge, who holds up one card on which he's written "Wasn't paying attention".

 

[Diana Delafield]

Jean Luc and Kaitlin could kill such a program! You know it and I know it

Yeah take us to the club Alison and Saulius! (Did she get her citizenship there yet?)

Do skaters who've moved around a lot and represented more than two countries, and obtained citizenship in at least one other than their birth country, try to drop one and switch as they move on to a new partner? Or do they try to add more and more extra citizenships? Or do they not bother unless they're Olympic hopefuls (which, as far as I know, is the only place where citizenship matters)? Are there other countries than Japan that don't permit dual citizenships or have tighter rules? I'm thinking of Mervin Tran, who skated for Japan, Canada, and the USA, but I'm sure there are many other partners in pairs and dance like him. He was turned down for Japanese citizenship because he'd never lived in that country (or was going to be denied if his partner there hadn't been injured and retired anyway). But Alison Reed has skated for three countries, hasn't she? And Vanessa James? Sorry for the digression -- never really started to wonder about multiple citizenships until now.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I still think it was pretty funny that for a while there in Juniors there was a team of Browns and a team of Greens

Like Roman chariot-racing stables, where each stable was a colour and you were a Red fan or a Green fan or whatever.

 

[blueberryhill]

And yes, it goes with no doubts that a performance with a fall should not have gotten marks above 9.50 in an ideal world. But as this was not the case in 2017, why should it be in 2023 ?

Apparently this wasn’t the case in 2014 either. At the GPF, Chock/Bates had a huge disruptive fall at the end of their short dance.
https://youtu.be/GwD-vISmlN8&t=3m15s

Judge #1 still gave them two perfect tens.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1415/gpf1415_IceDance_SD_Scores.pdf

 

[Diana Delafield]

Doesn't she just? Her dress is one of my favorites from this season!

The color freaked me out at first...but then, when I posted on GS "who wears hot pink to skate to Rhapsody in Blue?" somebody reminded me that Ilia Kulik had skated to the same music in a zebra print.

Wasn't it a giraffe? Yellow with big spots, anyway. Reporters kept asking him, and he just smiled and refused to answer.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Reminded me of Tessa Virtue’s skirt in a Spanish program back in the day

Did they change the final slide, to avoid her tripping on her own skirt again? Or was it just the camera angle that made that move look different this time. I preferred the first version even if it was riskier.