2023-24 Canadian Figure Skating

[4everchan]

You guys are always talking about getting the skaters out, but maybe there are other reasons and solutions and factors to be discussed.

Like what?

We see these guys land things in practice... even sometimes at small events like summer events.. and then out on the international circuit, and they blow it... Fiona is a great example of that.

 

[icewhite]

Like what?

We see these guys land things in practice... even sometimes at small events like summer events.. and then out on the international circuit, and they blow it... Fiona is a great example of that.

I cannot answer that since I don't know much about them or their training. But I am always wondering if the "mental"/ "psychological" explanations are not a bit overused for the times when we don't have another satisfying explanation. I don't know how they train, but there are certainly training approaches which offer more stability. There also doesn't seem to be so much focus on jumps and athleticism at a young age - in part I think that's a good thing. Of course you can do full routine after full routine and that will help the automatisms a lot, but it also destroys the body earlier. But then it might also simply be a fact that the automatisms are not there in full because the training has not focused on that - that's just an example, like I said I don't know what their training really looks like and I can only gather some suspicions from the few snippets I know.

 

[Ziotic]

For Kaiya, I think she was like me when I competed. When I knew the competition I was prepared. When I made it to the "next level" for the first time my outing was always a disaster. She had the same thing happen to her at her first JW outing, not even making the free skate. She just need another chance to do GP again and I think she will be fine.

 

[saine]

I cannot answer that since I don't know much about them or their training. But I am always wondering if the "mental"/ "psychological" explanations are not a bit overused for the times when we don't have another satisfying explanation. I don't know how they train, but there are certainly training approaches which offer more stability. There also doesn't seem to be so much focus on jumps and athleticism at a young age - in part I think that's a good thing. Of course you can do full routine after full routine and that will help the automatisms a lot, but it also destroys the body earlier. But then it might also simply be a fact that the automatisms are not there in full because the training has not focused on that - that's just an example, like I said I don't know what their training really looks like and I can only gather some suspicions from the few snippets I know.

Ravi told TSL that he has Conrad do 8-9 full run throughs a week, so I don't think that's the issue for him at least.

I focused on Conrad's quote because I thought it revealed a lot. Like the Grand Prix isn't over yet and he's worried that this was his last international assignment this season. That's a lot of pressure to put on himself because he doesn't know if he'll get anything after Nationals. That's the environment that Skate Canada is creating.

 

[4everchan]

I cannot answer that since I don't know much about them or their training. But I am always wondering if the "mental"/ "psychological" explanations are not a bit overused for the times when we don't have another satisfying explanation. I don't know how they train, but there are certainly training approaches which offer more stability. There also doesn't seem to be so much focus on jumps and athleticism at a young age - in part I think that's a good thing. Of course you can do full routine after full routine and that will help the automatisms a lot, but it also destroys the body earlier. But then it might also simply be a fact that the automatisms are not there in full because the training has not focused on that - that's just an example, like I said I don't know what their training really looks like and I can only gather some suspicions from the few snippets I know.

Consistency comes from confidence.

Confidence comes from experience.

 

[Heather T]

Just watched the skating lesson and they seemed impressed with Kaiya. Even though she had a bad skate they liked the basics and the program. So let's send her out more, please,

Well, that is saying something. I find they have a tendency to be quite negative…

 

[Colonel Green]

Ravi told TSL that he has Conrad do 8-9 full run throughs a week, so I don't think that's the issue for him at least.

I focused on Conrad's quote because I thought it revealed a lot. Like the Grand Prix isn't over yet and he's worried that this was his last international assignment this season. That's a lot of pressure to put on himself because he doesn't know if he'll get anything after Nationals. That's the environment that Skate Canada is creating.

I mean, you have to justify getting championship assignments. He hasn’t done anything to warrant that at this point if he doesn’t do well at nationals.

Orzel isn’t consistent in domestic competitions either, so I don’t think volume of international experience (of which he’s had a fair bit, anyway) enters into it.

 

[saine]

This isn't about whether he deserves the championship assignments, that'll come after Nationals. I'm sure he'll get it turned around by then. He wasn't looking good at this point last year either.

I'm more concerned that he's saying that. This is how the skaters are coming into their only Grand Prix assignment. It is not going to help them with their results if they think that this could be it coming into a competition. If he's saying it, then others are thinking it.

I don't see Skate Canada doing anything to change how they're developing single skaters. None of them are going to develop the consistency needed to earn the 2 GP spots this way. Men and women.

Why does Maddie need to earn a second spot for women if she's the only one with the TES minimums? What are they going to do after Wesley ages out of juniors next year? How are they developing the junior men to compete at Junior World's? Domestic competitions aren't the same as international competitions. There are junior Bs they could use, but they aren't.

The system isn't working for the singles skaters. If they don't get the results they need with the system Skate Canada is stuck on, then what is Skate Canada going to do to change that?

 

[Colonel Green]

The key to greater consistency isn’t more minor internationals. Learning to compete internationally is certainly a thing, but if you already aren’t performing well domestically, more internationals won’t make a difference.

 

[saine]

If they aren't hitting the domestic/international benchmarks set by Skate Canada to be sent to international competitions, they aren't being sent out to them. The only skater who didn't meet them this season likely got a Challenger due to other men who met the benchmarks being injured.

The skaters who have met them aren't being sent out enough. They aren't the ones who aren't competing well domestically. Even when they do meet the benchmark domestically, they could be passed over until they medal at Nationals.

The minor competitions help. More Challengers means more chances at a higher SB. Senior Bs mean more chances at WS points. Start order depends on the standings, which helps with how they're perceived. Higher SBs mean better chances at a non- host GP spot. For the women, more chances at getting the TES minimums in case something does happen to Maddie. Every competition helps.

 

[discodisco]

The key to greater consistency isn’t more minor internationals. Learning to compete internationally is certainly a thing, but if you already aren’t performing well domestically, more internationals won’t make a difference.

 

[discodisco]

The key to greater consistency isn’t more minor internationals. Learning to compete internationally is certainly a thing, but if you already aren’t performing well domestically, more internationals won’t make a difference.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I can absolutely understand how International competition is important ingredient in the development of a skater's ability to perform, but it is not going to do if anything if the skater can't perform in his backyard, or even in his own rink.

Sometimes we talk about this as if skaters like conrad, and steven, and wesley, etc, are killing it at the national level in domestic competitions, and then unfortunately falling apart due to the extra stress of an international environment. But that's not the case is it?

If I was skate canada, I would want a skater to prove that they could Master their nerves and produce half decent programs with good content in low stress environments, as proof that they were worth investing in.

Anyway, I think that your comment about was Bang on.

 

[discodisco]

All the skaters need to get out there as much as possible. Even if their results weren't good here. Senior and Junior.

Like I'm alarmed at what Conrad said in his Golden Skate blurb after the free at SCI where he's worried about getting assignments in the second half of the season now. This isn't a healthy environment Skate Canada is creating for the skaters to compete in.

The men aren't going to get the results they need if they have the pressure to get them in their two initial assignments, neither are the women. Maddie's getting pressure to get a second spot for women at Worlds when the other women aren't getting the results they need to earn their TES minimums.

There's been a lot made about how Mark Gorodnitsky has been so consistent when a) he's not jumping quads in competition and b) he's heading into Warsaw Cup next week, which is his fifth international this season. He wouldn't be getting the chance for having a fifth international if he were representing Canada with no quad. He wouldn't be developing that consistency if he had decided to represent Canada instead since he wouldn't be getting out there.

Two international competitions before Nationals is not going to develop the depth that Skate Canada wants in singles.

I can definitely see your point and think it has a lot of validity. However, I'm not sure it's realistic to expect International Ice to produce something that they couldn't do on domestic ice. However I understand your comment about how it puts added stress onto the skater knowing they have only one shot to get the job done.

 

[saine]

Sometimes we talk about this as if skaters like conrad, and steven, and wesley, etc, are killing it at the national level in domestic competitions, and then unfortunately falling apart due to the extra stress of an international environment. But that's not the case is it?

If I was skate canada, I would want a skater to prove that they could Master their nerves and produce half decent programs with good content in low stress environments, as proof that they were worth investing in.

Anyway, I think that your comment about was Bang on.

They got to the point of being able to be sent out by meeting the benchmarks set out by Skate Canada. Conrad, Wesley and Stephen have all met the international scoring benchmark set by Skate Canada of scoring over 199 points in their international competitions this season. They all met the domestic benchmark of scoring over 213 points at Nationals as set out by Skate Canada. They've proven that they're worth investing in by the standards that Skate Canada set out.

This is not just happening with men either. There is only one woman with the TES minimums for Worlds right now. That should not be the case. The women are not going to earn those TES minimums if they aren't sent out internationally.

 

[discodisco]

They got to the point of being able to be sent out by meeting the benchmarks set out by Skate Canada. Conrad, Wesley and Stephen have all met the international scoring benchmark set by Skate Canada of scoring over 199 points in their international competitions this season. They all met the domestic benchmark of scoring over 213 points at Nationals as set out by Skate Canada. They've proven that they're worth investing in by the standards that Skate Canada set out.

This is not just happening with men either. There is only one woman with the TES minimums for Worlds right now. That should not be the case. The women are not going to earn those TES minimums if they aren't sent out internationally.

Fair enough. I get what you're saying. They definitely need to have opportunities to get their minimums. I guess I just meant that it's not as if their performances domestically scream that they are ready to do some damage internationally and that their lack of success internationally is because they don't get enough International exposure. They need to be able to perform in low pressure environments before people are going to theaters worthwhile to send them out to represent Canada and high stakes environments.

To me that's the issue. More so than lack of international exposure. It's like the problem with Chouinard back in the day. She needed to find a way, whether through sports psychologist or whatever, to battle her nerves. It happened everywhere, from domestic to International competition. There wasn't a difference.

Some skaters always skate incredibly well on home ice, and then Fall Apart internationally. Those skaters need more International exposure to give them practice in the pressure environments. But some skaters fall apart no matter where they are, and they don't need International exposure; they need a sports psychologist.

 

[saine]

I can definitely see your point and think it has a lot of validity. However, I'm not sure it's realistic to expect International Ice to produce something that they couldn't do on domestic ice. However I understand your comment about how it puts added stress onto the skater knowing they have only one shot to get the job done.

It's not about international ice producing something that they couldn't do on domestic ice. It's learning to produce what they can do on domestic ice on the international stage. If they're not learning to do that, then what is Skate Canada doing to change that? That's their job.

Fair enough. I get what you're saying. They definitely need to have opportunities to get their minimums. I guess I just meant that it's not as if their performances domestically scream that they are ready to do some damage internationally and that their lack of success internationally is because they don't get enough International exposure. They need to be able to perform in low pressure environments before people are going to theaters worthwhile to send them out to represent Canada and high stakes environments.

To me that's the issue. More so than lack of international exposure. It's like the problem with Chouinard back in the day. She needed to find a way, whether through sports psychologist or whatever, to battle her nerves. It happened everywhere, from domestic to International competition. There wasn't a difference.

Some skaters always skate incredibly well on home ice, and then Fall Apart internationally. Those skaters need more International exposure to give them practice in the pressure environments. But some skaters fall apart no matter where they are, and they don't need International exposure; they need a sports psychologist.

I'm not expecting them to suddenly do the international damage, but it'd be nice if they could. I'd like them to at least be able to earn two GP spots without having to wait on the alternate list.

There could be other issues at work too. Maddie had issues with her free last season which led to inconsistent results, and then had better results when she switched back to her old one. Conrad had his best Nationals after changing coaches. Those were changes that they could make as individuals. Some of them may already have a sports psychologist and aren't talking about it. We don't know everything.

I focus on Skate Canada since they're the ones who have the system in place to develop the skaters to compete internationally. I think it's too easy to focus on the individuals when there is more than one of them having issues. If they're not competitive internationally, then what changes are they making to develop the skaters to compete at that level?

 

[4everchan]

It's also about the timing of things. The competitions the skaters can easily go to are summer events. How could Conrad (or anyone really) do so well with brand new programs in July and August. They need time. They need competitions leading up to Nationals and they need competitive environments to test their adrenaline. Sectionals are not where these skaters will get that. They need challengers.

Look, Josefin (SWE) got her TES mins at Volvo Open... She doesn't have a 3-3. She's been doing a lot of events in Europe over the last few years. It helps.

I am a performer. One of my first teachers said to me " it takes about 100 concerts before one starts feeling comfortable"

How many outings do our skaters get in a season ? How many years will it take them to start feeling comfortable ?

 

[Sackie]

Doing well Nationally and Internationally are 2 different things. How many times have we seen a CAN skater do well at Nationals and then never get beyond it because as a National medalist they get sent to the big events before they have international experience at some minor events. Think of Emily Bausback, Aurora Cotop, Larkyn Austman, Liam Firus, etc. They all had great skates at Nationals but when they got sent to the big events they bombed and it wasn't long afterwards that they all left the sport.
And for how long was Keeghan ranked as the top Can Man internationally before he actually won the National title. They started sending him out in 2015 yet he didn't medal at nationals until 2018 and didn't win the CAN title until 2022.

 

[Sackie]

Starting to wonder if our CAN men are trying to add too much Tec content to their programs too early. I know they need high Tec to stay competitive but maybe they are pushing themselves too fast. Stephen landed 2 Quads in both the short and the free but messed up on some of his triple jumps. Had he simply went for one solid clean Quad in each and cleaning landed all his triples, chances are he would have finished top 5.

 

[4everchan]

Starting to wonder if our CAN men are trying to add too much Tec content to their programs too early. I know they need high Tec to stay competitive but maybe they are pushing themselves too fast. Stephen landed 2 Quads in both the short and the free but messed up on some of his triple jumps. Had he simply went for one solid clean Quad in each and cleaning landed all his triples, chances are he would have finished top 5.

this is what happens when the door is wide open... guys are pushing themselves on BV hoping it will stick. Gogolev's pattern has been quad pop quad pop for quite a while now though.