2024 Europeans: Pairs' thoughts?

[el henry]

The Hungarians were uninspiring and dull compared to other top pair teams. Landing jumps clinically does not a complete package make.

Absolutely no proof of any "ethnic" bias (whatever that ethnicity may be, I don't even know what that means)

 

[Baron Vladimir]

The Hungarians were uninspiring and dull compared to other top pair teams. Landing jumps clinically does not a complete package make.

Absolutely no proof of any "ethnic" bias (whatever that ethnicity may be, I don't even know what that means)

They were the only pairs team who skated completely clean 2 programmes, without any small mistake the casual viewers or even die-hard fans can see. That is inspiring enough! (And my personal opinion is that skate with all green lights in the tech box should be rewarded more by the judges, at least in the PErformance component). No matter how skater is inspiring during the performance (and what is inspiring may be different for any personality), what casual viewers spot on at first is if a performance has a mistake in it or not. Im not saying they should necessarily win a medal with that skating performance, but i completely understand people, especially casual viewers, complaining about the placements in this event (i would add that the judging in the other disciplines was on point).

 

[Sabsi]

They were the only pairs team who skated completely clean 2 programmes, without any small mistake the casual viewers or even die-hard fans can see. That is inspiring enough! (And my personal opinion is that skate with all green lights in the tech box should be rewarded more by the judges, at least in the PErformance component). No matter how skater is inspiring during the performance (and what is inspiring may be different for any personality), what casual viewers spot on at first is if a performance has a mistake in it or not. Im not saying they should necessarily win a medal with that skating performance, but i completely understand people, especially casual viewers, complaining about the placements in this event (i would add that judging in the other disciplines was on point).

GHILARDI / AMBROSINI were absolutely clean, too (if we ignore that both teams got only a q in the free).

 

[Baron Vladimir]

GHILARDI / AMBROSINI were absolutely clean, too (if we ignore that both teams got only a q in the free).

Yeah, they very good, but not pristine clean, to quote SImon , i clearly remember she had a touch down with both hands on the throw jump, everybody could see, no matter if the general GOE for that element was positive...

 

[el henry]

They were the only pairs team who skated completely clean 2 programmes, without any small mistake the casual viewers or even die-hard fans can see. That is inspiring enough! (And my personal opinion is that skate with all green lights in the tech box should be rewarded more by the judges, at least in the PErformance component). No matter how skater is inspiring during the performance (and what is inspiring may be different for any personality), what casual viewers spot on at first is if a performance has a mistake in it or not. Im not saying they should necessarily win a medal with that skating performance, but i completely understand people, especially casual viewers, complaining about the placements in this event (i would add that the judging in the other disciplines was on point).

We disagree on what casual viewers will see, but that is not the issue.

If a fan thinks the Hungarians "wuzrobbed", that is an opinion and we all have our opinions.

The issue for me is that there is NO evidence of "ethnic" bias on the part of the judges. None. Zero. Other than wuzrobbed, but since fans can disagree as to whether they wuzrobbed, so can the judges. If every time a skater wuzrobbed was ethnic bias, I would be crying and moaning about the anti-American judges who can't mark Jason's PCS correct. I can and will complain, but not about ethnic bias

 

[Baron Vladimir]

We disagree on what casual viewers will see, but that is not the issue.

If a fan thinks the Hungarians "wuzrobbed", that is an opinion and we all have our opinions.

The issue for me is that there is NO evidence of "ethnic" bias on the part of the judges. None. Zero. Other than wuzrobbed, but since fans can disagree as to whether they wuzrobbed, so can the judges. If every time a skater wuzrobbed was ethnic bias, I would be crying and moaning about the anti-American judges who can't mark Jason's PCS correct. I can and will complain, but not about ethnic bias

So, you are saying that Jason should get 10 in components instead of 9.5 he is getting?
Im not debating if someone is wuzrobbed or not, because i understand points of judging very well, i'm only saying what casual people (and not die-hard fans) watching figure skating are seeing, and that is sometimes as in this case, not what the judges are seeing, or not seeing...

 

[lariko]

The Hungarians were uninspiring and dull compared to other top pair teams. Landing jumps clinically does not a complete package make.

Absolutely no proof of any "ethnic" bias (whatever that ethnicity may be, I don't even know what that means)

In your opinion. They are fine. I saw both Italian teams live and I can’t say they have great speed across the ice or some incredible components/artistic impact. I mean, they keep harping here that apparently Shiryaeva doesn't have the speed...so should ding Italians for that too. Guarise is another matter. But P/S were ahead on the short, they skated a clean free, and the Italians had problems with jumping passes. Plus, they had one team on the podium already and podium with 3 teams from 3 different countries is far superior to a podium with less countries for the development of figure skating. Hungary makes serious efforts to build their team by accepting transfers from Russia. Hence, ethnic bias is visible, because they didn't want to encourage Hungarian efforts. If they did, they would have put Pavolva/Svyatchenko on the podium, the way they did with R/A over French team. I mean, P/S deserved encouragement more than R/A....

 

[Weathergal]

Although I truly love Gh/Am (always have done, they trained with Mozer Team after all ), but Hungarians were blatantly low-balled. I very much hope they'll pick themselves up and show the judges that they're not intimidated by them.
Can't quite get it that H/V broke down the way they did. Minerva's been around the block for eternity, she should rise above that.

I'd say this was a stamina issue. They had a demanding first half of the season. Minerva has been around but not on the level like this. Athletes who rise to the top level from lover ranks often have stamina issues because loads are different. It takes time and experience to figure out how to keep yourself on top of your physical form the whole season. Some top athletes even consider not to and prepare themselves for a specific competition only.
They will sort it out in a season or two.

I know Minvera's experienced, but she and Nolan Seegert were never at the level / had the expectations that she already has with Volodin - and their success came so quickly. Hopefully it's something they can work through so they can be their best for Worlds.

 

[withwings]

Minerva was sick and she was able to go on ice and train only little bit more than one week prior European Championships. IMO this might be a taken into consideration too. Sometimes woman's body recovers, gets strength back differently than man's body. Also, Volodin, as much as good they are together and as much good he is as a skater ( and he really is!!), seems not to be very encouraging or supporting when his partner needs the most. He said no supporting word, nothing, just left her in Kiss and Cry after their performance with aborted lift. It might have affected Minerva deeply ( just my guess). And... they aborted lift also in gala.... Imho their coach have to be smart and to address these clearly psychological issues ( I do remember how Trennt Michaud supported his previous partner when she did mistakes! Bravo to him for doing this!).

They are a wonderful pair team and all this imo is just a productive growing pain if coming issues are taken in a productive way.

 

[dorispulaski]

I thoroughly enjoyed B&G's Cats program! I don't care whether it was corny. Enough of dreary music!

And the Lithuanians are amazing hosts! They need to have another championship or the GPF.

OTOH, I think the Hungarians finished exactly where they should have. Third in the FS and fourth overall.

Their attitude to the judges does them no favors. Instead of giving the judges a piece of their mind, they should listen to the tech panel and judges so they can improve their levels (and GOE) and hence their scores and placing at 2024 Worlds.

And in any case, their beef, if there is any, would be with the tech panel. The judges gave them typical GOE for what they did.

Please look through their protocol for the FS, where they finished third. They were fourth overall because of their SP score.

1. They were not perfect. The q on the 2nd element had negative GOE from every judge. In fact they got a .20 smaller deduction for the same error as Beccari & Guarise. No bias there.

3T+2Aq+2A+SEQ q 10.80 -0.60 -2 -1 -3 -2 -1 -1 -1 -2 -1 10.20

They could easily pick up a 1.6 points or more here.

2. They were not able to achieve level four on two of their three lifts. The first place Italians got level 4 on all three lifts.

5ALi3 6.60 1.51 2 3 2 2 1 2 3 2 3 8.11

0.40 base level points lost

4Li3 4.70 0.81 0 2 2 2 2 1 1 2 2 5.51

Another 0.40 base level points lost

3. They lost a level on the back outside death spiral, but all the other teams lost one level, or more. It was a tough panel.

BoDs3 4.40 0.63 0 3 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 5.03

4. However, the final element was poorly done and rather lame, too. You should always end on a high note for a good composition or performance mark. Plus it is not hard to get a level4 on the pair combination spin. Every other team but one got level three or four.

PCoSp2 3.50 0.45 1 2 2 1 0 0 2 1 2 3.95

They lost a point in base value here and possibly some GOE & PCS marks, too.

Now if they had gotten 3 extra points, they would be in second place overall.


3 Maria PAVLOVA / Alexei SVIATCHENKO HUN 13 128.73 69.89 58.84 0.00
# Executed Elements
Info
Base
Value GOE J1 J2 J3 J4 J5 J6 J7 J8 J9 Ref. Scores of
Panel
1 3Tw4 6.00 1.54 2 4 2 2 3 3 3 2 3 7.54
2 3T+2Aq+2A+SEQ q 10.80 -0.60 -2 -1 -3 -2 -1 -1 -1 -2 -1 10.20
3 3FTh 5.30 0.83 2 2 1 1 2 1 2 2 1 6.13
4 3S 4.30 0.92 3 3 1 1 2 2 3 2 2 5.22
5 5ALi3 6.60 1.51 2 3 2 2 1 2 3 2 3 8.11
6 ChSq1 3.00 0.29 1 1 0 0 0 1 2 1 0 3.29
7 3LoTh 5.00 1.21 3 4 2 2 2 2 3 2 3 6.21
8 5RLi4 7.00 1.70 1 3 3 2 2 2 3 3 2 8.70
9 4Li3 4.70 0.81 0 2 2 2 2 1 1 2 2 5.51
10 BoDs3 4.40 0.63 0 3 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 5.03
11 PCoSp2 3.50 0.45 1 2 2 1 0 0 2 1 2 3.95
60.60 69.89
Program Components Factor
Composition 2.67 7.00 7.75 7.00 7.25 7.50 7.75 7.50 7.00 7.50 7.36
Presentation 2.67 6.75 8.00 7.25 7.00 7.25 7.50 7.25 7.25 7.50 7.29
Skating Skills 2.67 6.75 7.75 7.00 7.25 7.50 7.75 7.50 7.25 7.50

Now in the SP, they also lost levels, and ended up in fourth place there. Neither the DS in the SP or the FS were top notch, showing a weakness in that skill

1. StSq2 2.60 0.52 2 2 1 3 2 2 2 2 2 3.12
2. FiDs2 3.20 0.41 1 1 1 3 2 1 1 2 0 3.6

So they should quit the entitled complaints and work on what they can control, their levels.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I thoroughly enjoyed B&G's Cats program! I don't care whether it was corny. Enough of dreary music!

And the Lithuanians are amazing hosts! They need to have another championship or the GPF.

OTOH, I think the Hungarians finished exactly where they should have. Third in the FS and fourth overall.

Their attitude to the judges does them no favors. Instead of giving the judges a piece of their mind, they should listen to the tech panel and judges so they can improve their levels (and GOE) and hence their scores and placing at 2024 Worlds.

And in any case, their beef, if there is any, would be with the tech panel. The judges gave them typical GOE for what they did.

Please look through their protocol for the FS, where they finished third. They were fourth overall because of their SP score.

1. They were not perfect. The q on the 2nd element had negative GOE from every judge. In fact they got a .20 smaller deduction for the same error as Beccari & Guarise. No bias there.

3T+2Aq+2A+SEQ q 10.80 -0.60 -2 -1 -3 -2 -1 -1 -1 -2 -1 10.20

They could easily pick up a 1.6 points or more here.

2. They were not able to achieve level four on two of their three lifts. The first place Italians got level 4 on all three lifts.

5ALi3 6.60 1.51 2 3 2 2 1 2 3 2 3 8.11

0.40 base level points lost

4Li3 4.70 0.81 0 2 2 2 2 1 1 2 2 5.51

Another 0.40 base level points lost

3. They lost a level on the back outside death spiral, but all the other teams lost one level, or more. It was a tough panel.

BoDs3 4.40 0.63 0 3 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 5.03

4. However, the final element was poorly done and rather lame, too. You should always end on a high note for a good composition or performance mark. Plus it is not hard to get a level4 on the pair combination spin. Every other team but one got level three or four.

PCoSp2 3.50 0.45 1 2 2 1 0 0 2 1 2 3.95

They lost a point in base value here and possibly some GOE & PCS marks, too.

Now if they had gotten 3 extra points, they would be in second place overall.


3 Maria PAVLOVA / Alexei SVIATCHENKO HUN 13 128.73 69.89 58.84 0.00
# Executed Elements
Info
Base
Value GOE J1 J2 J3 J4 J5 J6 J7 J8 J9 Ref. Scores of
Panel
1 3Tw4 6.00 1.54 2 4 2 2 3 3 3 2 3 7.54
2 3T+2Aq+2A+SEQ q 10.80 -0.60 -2 -1 -3 -2 -1 -1 -1 -2 -1 10.20
3 3FTh 5.30 0.83 2 2 1 1 2 1 2 2 1 6.13
4 3S 4.30 0.92 3 3 1 1 2 2 3 2 2 5.22
5 5ALi3 6.60 1.51 2 3 2 2 1 2 3 2 3 8.11
6 ChSq1 3.00 0.29 1 1 0 0 0 1 2 1 0 3.29
7 3LoTh 5.00 1.21 3 4 2 2 2 2 3 2 3 6.21
8 5RLi4 7.00 1.70 1 3 3 2 2 2 3 3 2 8.70
9 4Li3 4.70 0.81 0 2 2 2 2 1 1 2 2 5.51
10 BoDs3 4.40 0.63 0 3 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 5.03
11 PCoSp2 3.50 0.45 1 2 2 1 0 0 2 1 2 3.95
60.60 69.89
Program Components Factor
Composition 2.67 7.00 7.75 7.00 7.25 7.50 7.75 7.50 7.00 7.50 7.36
Presentation 2.67 6.75 8.00 7.25 7.00 7.25 7.50 7.25 7.25 7.50 7.29
Skating Skills 2.67 6.75 7.75 7.00 7.25 7.50 7.75 7.50 7.25 7.50

Now in the SP, they also lost levels, and ended up in fourth place there. Neither the DS in the SP or the FS were top notch, showing a weakness in that skill

1. StSq2 2.60 0.52 2 2 1 3 2 2 2 2 2 3.12
2. FiDs2 3.20 0.41 1 1 1 3 2 1 1 2 0 3.6

So they should quit the entitled complaints and work on what they can control, their levels.

That was not my point tho, cause we can analyze step by step any skating performance we saw... Hungarian performance was perfectly clean by the casual viewers, or majority of us who were watching the ISU broadcast in real time, no matter what are the rules or what the tech panel when they want to push the buttons for their own reviews are seeing or not... Even if tech panel saw a Q, the panel of the judges should keep that element as a positive one, if they can mark Ghilardi&Ambrosini throw jump as a positive one, as all the sequences with a single Axel in it, which is an element i can even perform... Because people in real time could see she touched the ice with both of her hands on the throw jump, comparing to see if Hungarian double axel was on q or not, or if they lost a level or not - those are the things people cant spot on, comparing to the visible mistakes we all can see... And visible means for all of us, not only for the tech panel, or for the 'youtube slow mo enthusiastics reviewers'...
E: To repeat im not saying that their 4th placement is 'correct' or not, but I'm saying how it is perfectly fine to complain about their 4th placement...

 

[dorispulaski]

It is always fine to complain about scores, otherwise there would be nothing to write about on forums.

 

[Sk8swan]

I see people have mixed feelings about the Cats program
Some may know Matteo himself picked up the music for the LP. I have to say "Memory" has been pretty popular among Italian pair roller teams, I can think of several of them skating to it....and he indeed skated to it in exhibition back in 2007! Here is a video for you (I edited the audio because the tv commentators were talking loud all the time). Cats' lovers.... enjoy!