2025 Worlds: Ice Dance thoughts and comments

[gkelly]

Very simply turns, twizzles, and level features can be objectively evaluated or not, but beyond that there wil always be human bias. And that being said, tech panels don't call turns correctly often (either human error or bias).

True enough, although of course that is more true of those judging the tech panel than the panels themselves.

to an extent, speed, power, edge depth and posture can be objective. A skater is fast or slow. A skater does complicated transitions or not. A skater makes big lobes on the ice, or flat. A skater has hunched shoulders or not. A skater has a stretched free leg or not.

All these are continuous variables, not either/or. You can rate them on, say, a scale of 0-5 or 0-10. It's not a choice between either 0 or 10 with nothing in between.

differentiation between masterful technicians is quite tricky in some situations. But if judges could put bias aside, these aspects could be marked quite well. Even composition can (if the judges understood music and element design).

Are you an expert in these areas? Could you mark these aspects better than the judges across a large field?
I'd love to learn how to do it, if you could share your expertise, maybe in a new thread.

And also considering the non-fans of ice dance, the casual viewers. When asking family, they often loved the least technical skaters the best. Because they watch the program, and take in the performance. Nothing else matters to them but the overall impression.

Very true. There's lots to enjoy from teams who are good performers and maybe less accomplished technically. As long as no one thinks enjoyment factor should override skating skill. But in ice dance particularly, ability to use the skating skills to dance to the music is much more important than in other disciplines, and that often does translate directly into enjoyment.
But sometimes, there are just technical reasons why a more enjoyable program might not score as highly.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I am not going to make any friends here : the Dune program is fun and very well choreographed but to me it is simpler than most and shouldn't have scored higher than the skaters abilities. I find it dangerous now that judges are evaluating programs rather than skating... the opposite end of this would be the Italians very kitsch Robots who scored below their ability (though in this event, they were also shaky and that wasn't the case for Olivia and Tim who skated very well).... In the same vein, was LaLa's FD too inhibited to give them the scores their talent deserves ?

Yes and what's more I think Olivia especially has more technical potential than they are choosing to showcase. The thing I'm most annoyed about is that the current trend in ice dance isn't pushing skaters to challenge their own limits in terms of skating skills.
I probably sound like a broken record at this point, but I really miss the technical emphasis of the 2010s...

I've never been less interested in an entire competition segment as the RD this season. There are a couple of programmes that I'll look up to watch after the event (mainly out of curiosity about scoring), but actually sitting through a livestream is a bit of a slog.

I was more drawn to the mid-ranked teams in the free dance. Maurizio hit the spot with both Finn teams' programmes this season, maybe Babs should drop him a call

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Next season's RD theme has been announced. Hip hop and club music from the 90's.

In the spirit of positivity and finding joy in skating, I'll refrain from commenting on that.

Not very surprised, considering the direction of this cycle. I hope after Milan they'll change tack, or we'll run out of decades with original recordings of usable sound quality.

 

[labgoat]

I'm with Jean-Luc bring back the old short dance with some actual patterns to improve holds, complexity and better one on one comparisons of skating skills. I miss a real Paso Doble or Tango Romantica, Blues or any Waltz.

 

[TontoK]

I'm with Jean-Luc bring back the old short dance with some actual patterns to improve holds, complexity and better one on one comparisons of skating skills. I miss a real Paso Doble or Tango Romantica, Blues or any Waltz.

His commentary of ice dance during US Nationals was phenomenal. If they're looking for someone with more dance experience than KMT for the dance competitions, he'd be my first recommendation.

And, absolutely, bring back "ballroom dancing on ice" at least for the RD sections. I even didn't mind the Short Dance segment in which the teams had to incorporate segments of the old compulsories, but they could choose whatever musical vehicle they liked to do so.

I grew weary of the Saturday Night Fever RD's this season, and I am going to need some serious therapy and medication to cope with an endless lineup of Hammer Time next year.

 

[Pawnshop8]

His commentary of ice dance during US Nationals was phenomenal. If they're looking for someone with more dance experience than KMT for the dance competitions, he'd be my first recommendation.

And, absolutely, bring back "ballroom dancing on ice" at least for the RD sections. I even didn't mind the Short Dance segment in which the teams had to incorporate segments of the old compulsories, but they could choose whatever musical vehicle they liked to do so.

I grew weary of the Saturday Night Fever RD's this season, and I am going to need some serious therapy and medication to cope with an endless lineup of Hammer Time next year.

Does anyone.have the official link to RD choice for 2025-2026?

 

[yelyoh]

Next season's RD theme has been announced. Hip hop and club music from the 90's.

In the spirit of positivity and finding joy in skating, I'll refrain from commenting on that.

Well it might be very entertaining for all the wrong reasons. Hip Hop? LOL. Club music gives more latitde to not look foolish But WHY for an Olympic season?

 

[4everchan]

Well it might be very entertaining for all the wrong reasons. Hip Hop? LOL. Club music gives more latitde to not look foolish But WHY for an Olympic season?

because they believe that's what could bring fans in by looking cool ? they don't care that the hardcore fans would prefer a real dance theme like waltz... no... that would look like a sport for the old ladies...

so they go with these ridiculous themes thinking that young people will watch...

but the young people are not watching and will not start watching because of a that theme... they won't even know about it....

one of the kids I coach, i told them I was looking forward to watching some skating this weekend, said... is scott moir still doing well ?

and I was yeah... as a coach.. he retired from competition 7 years ago... she was : oh.. it's been that long i watched skating then.

she's young. She may like hip hop.. but she will never find out it's happening at the games.

In the meantime, i am getting less and less interested in RDs...
1) themes that are not conducive to great ice dance
2) RD judging.

 

[labgoat]

The last time Hip Hop was done was 2017 Worlds.
There was a choice of Swing, Blues, Jive or Hip Hop
The full event with time stamps below is still available on YT !!
Not all individual links will still work - but enough do.
From that year's rewatch I have *asterisked who chose Hip Hop*
I also colored red the skaters who are still skating, coaching or of interest
This was a short dance so there is a compulsory Blues pattern for all skaters - Gosh I miss having this for comparison. If you've never seen how this works here is your chance.

Link to Our competition thread for this event

ISU results

Ice Dance Short Dance ISU full version
Warm-up Group 1
*1 Anastasia Galyeta / Avidan Brown AZE 16:20
2 Lilah Fear / Lewis Gibson GBR 22:24
3 Cecilia Törn / Jussiville Partanen FIN 28:36
4 Tatiana Kozmava / Oleksii Shumskyi GEO 35:33

Warm-up Group 2
5 Olivia Smart / Adrià Díaz ESP 49:17
*6 Kavita Lorenz / Joti Polizoakis GER 55:50
7 Taylor Tran / Saulius Ambrulevičius LTU 1:02:36
8 Marie-Jade Lauriault / Romain Le Gac FRA 1:09:06

Warm-up Group 3
9 Kana Muramoto / Chris Reed JPN 1:37:43 APEHA - just to remember the late Chris Reed
10 Nicole Kuzmichová / Alexandr Sinicyn CZE 1:44:19
*11 Yura Min / Alexander Gamelin KOR 1:50:33 (costume change)
12 Tina Garabedian / Simon Proulx-Sénécal ARM 1:56:55 APEHA

Warm-up Group 4
13 Viktoria Kavaliova / Yurii Bieliaiev BLR 2:10:42 ESP
14 Olga Jakushina / Andrey Nevskiy LAT 2:16:58 ESP
15 Lorenza Alessandrini / Pierre Souquet FRA 2:23:43 ESP
16 Alisa Agafonova / Alper Uçar TUR 2:30:27 ESP
17 Natalia Kaliszek / Maksym Spodyriev POL 2:37:10 ESP (costume change)

Warm-up Group 5
18 Wang Shiyue / Liu Xinyu CHN 3:06:01 ESP
19 Laurence Fournier Beaudry / Nikolaj Sørensen DEN 3:12:39 ESP
*20 Tessa Virtue / Scott Moir CAN 3:19:11 BESP CBC RESP
21 Oleksandra Nazarova / Maxim Nikitin UKR 3:25:57 ESP
22 Isabella Tobias / Ilia Tkachenko ISR 3:32:45

Warm-up Group 6
23 Alexandra Stepanova / Ivan Bukin RUS 3:45:44 ESP
24 Charlène Guignard / Marco Fabbri ITA 3:52:18 ESP
25 Ekaterina Bobrova / Dmitri Soloviev RUS 3:58:47 ESP
26 Piper Gilles / Paul Poirier CAN 4:05:25 ESP NBC
27 Anna Cappellini / Luca Lanotte ITA 4:12:06 ESP

Warm-up Group 7
*28 Maia Shibutani / Alex Shibutani USA 4:40:46 APEHA
29 Kaitlyn Weaver / Andrew Poje CAN 4:47:10 ESP NBC
30 Gabriella Papadakis / Guillaume Cizeron FRA 4:53:47 NBC ESP
*31 Madison Hubbell / Zachary Donohue USA 5:00:30 ESP NBC
*32 Madison Chock / Evan Bates USA 5:07:07 ESP NBC

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Well it might be very entertaining for all the wrong reasons. Hip Hop? LOL. Club music gives more latitde to not look foolish But WHY for an Olympic season?

They kind of tried this already at the 2022 Olympics with the 'street dance' theme (including hip hop, but also other genres). It was a bit Marmite I personally liked it because there was some leeway for music choice. It gave room for teams like Muramoto/Takahashi to put their own spin on the theme. Also even for programmes that weren't my cup of tea, at least there was a Midnight Blues section that I could appreciate.

 

[Silver_15]

I wish there was more focus on edges, which was the essence of ice dancing. Skaters like Davis and Smolkin skate flat so much of the time and use their upper body and costumes to promote a program. This is not my idea of ice dancing.

 

[chepe]

I convinced two of my friends (both very casual figure skating followers) to watch free dance, both of them thought that Dune program was amazeballs. Neither of them have even seen the movie, or know anything about Dune. (Neither of them liked the robots very much...)

I like the '90s concept for RD in principle, but this is third season in the row we have similar decadal popular music theme. Isn't it time for something else for a change? Or is it because it's Olympic year, ISU has gone "Maybe we could have some classical dances this year....no wait, oh man, we need to have something hip & cool for the Olympics" Don't they plan in advance?

 

[lariko]

Honestly, I wait patiently for a season of waltzes. I started watching FS in 2018 and never saw much waltzes, only tangoes, tangoes and more tangoes. Actually, their themed musical cycles did the job, getting me to watch ID and read their scoring charts. Waltz is bound to feel fresh again soon enough. Hopefully, after the Russians are back in full swing, because they gotta know how to waltz.

 

[4everchan]

Honestly, I wait patiently for a season of waltzes. I started watching FS in 2018 and never saw much waltzes, only tangoes, tangoes and more tangoes. Actually, their themed musical cycles did the job, getting me to watch ID and read their scoring charts. Waltz is bound to feel fresh again soon enough. Hopefully, after the Russians are back in full swing, because they gotta know how to waltz.

but there won't be any waltzes any time soon... not sure what you mean ? did i read you wrong ?

 

[lariko]

but there won't be any waltzes any time soon... not sure what you mean ? did i read you wrong ?

I hope there will be one, eventually, and I am fine to watch hip-hop next year. Plus, they had covered 1950s to 1990s period now, so they probably can't go into more recent music anyway, so they will need to rotate in a season or two of ballroom music. Like, new is only well enough forgotten old, so they are waiting for long enough so that it looks like timeless classic versus the same-old, same-old.

Basically, their approach is working for me, but I want waltzes.

 

[lariko]

I mean, if anything bugs me about dance, it's that way too many couples stay in the competition for way too long. I want rules changes that let younger athletes to get ahead easier if at all possible. I mean, they probably have enough athletes now for elder age league/tier, starting with age 28 and up.

 

[chepe]

Basically, their approach is working for me, but I want waltzes.

They should do alternative years between ballroom/decade music. Disco/pop 3 years in a row is too much even for me.

 

[Mathman]

OK, so I have this to share. I looked up the history or the waltz to see what century it represents. Here is a gif (from Wikipedia) of an animation device called a phenakistoscope (1833), similar to a stroboscope and ancestral to motion pictures.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Phenakistoscope_3g07690d.gif/500px-Phenakistoscope_3g07690d.gif

 

[4everchan]

I mean, if anything bugs me about dance, it's that way too many couples stay in the competition for way too long. I want rules changes that let younger athletes to get ahead easier if at all possible. I mean, they probably have enough athletes now for elder age league/tier, starting with age 28 and up.

I disagree with that.

I have been watching these same teams who are on top right now, and they are way better than when they were in their mid twenties.
For most teams, it takes over a decade to get it together,...

Two very young teams rose to the top quickly : Virtue and Moir and Papadakis Cizeron... both teams had been training together for years as children.

If you like ice dance, then you appreciate the mature "artists" of the sport. In five to ten years, the sport will have great teams from what I see in the mid tier of the pack, including both Czech teams, LaLa. I can wait patiently while enjoying what Piper and Paul, Chock and Bates and Guignard Fabbri have developed over time.

This kind of idea is like saying to Novak Djokovic that he should retire because he is too old... Meh... he lost a big tournament this weekend, beaten by a 19 year old.. Let the athletes who have dedicated their entire life to the sport decide for themselves when it's time to retire.

 

[Mathman]

I mean, if anything bugs me about dance, it's that way too many couples stay in the competition for way too long. I want rules changes that let younger athletes to get ahead easier if at all possible. I mean, they probably have enough athletes now for elder age league/tier, starting with age 28 and up.

As 4everchan says, the danger would be that the oldies but goodies might be better than the dancers in their prime. Just like in ladies, the juniors might be able to out-jump the seniors and steal their thunder.