2025 Worlds: Ice Dance thoughts and comments

[Diana Delafield]

Here is a thought..

why 5 judges from former soviet world on a panel of 9?

only 1 judge from Western Europe...

No canada... no france... no Uk judge (ok UK was on the TP)

My point is : i can imagine that a different judging panel may have brought in different results... and that's what is making me edgy.

If you insert Canada (though they have a reputation for not judging their own too favorably) and France, I bet LaLa and Lopareva Brissaud would score higher...


I am not surprised either that a crowd of judges from former soviet influence -let's not forget that probably most these judges were born soviet... considering average age of judges.... would like CPom.... Ponomarenko senior was a huge star and olympic champion and of course, they can relate to Carmen... a classic

Is it written somewhere how the judging panels are selected for each competition? Are the names drawn? Is there a rotation on a list? Once invited (if that's what happens), can a judge accept or refuse the assignment, and if one refuses for whatever reason, are there then alternates or do they draw another name, or...?

Not a topic I've ever paid much attention to, so I just now realized I don't know how the panel is formed in the first place.

 

[4everchan]

Is it written somewhere how the judging panels are selected for each competition? Are the names drawn? Is there a rotation on a list? Once invited (if that's what happens), can a judge accept or refuse the assignment, and if one refuses for whatever reason, are there then alternates or do they draw another name, or...?

Not a topic I've ever paid much attention to, so I just now realized I don't know how the panel is formed in the first place.

@Andrea82 or @gkelly can probably give you a better answer

 

[4everchan]

BTW... just for the records, I was told I was biased, yet, at least one judge ranked "my teams" exactly the way I would have

So I guess that judge is biased too

PS there weren't any Canadian judge on the panel for either the RD nor the FD, nor that there was a Canadian on the tech panel So, OMG...a non Canadian judge ranked teams exactly like me, a super biased fan

 

[Mathman]

Here is a thought..

why 5 judges from former soviet world on a panel of 9?

Questions like this are what makes me hesitate to form any real conclusions. Even if fthe draw is truly random and as fair as fair can be, this will happen sometimes. And sometimes judges from other countries will come up lucky.

I remember back in 2002, when the judges were announced (by country only) for the World Championship, Dick Button immediately announced on the air that Michelle Kwan's goose is cooked. She will never win a championship with this panel. (When the judges were individually named later, one of them turned out to be a certain Salome C.)

 

[4everchan]

Questions like this are what makes me hesitate to form any real conclusions. Even if fthe draw is truly random and as fair as fair can be, this will happen sometimes. And sometimes judges from other countries will come up lucky.

I remember back in 2002, when the judges were announced (by country only) for the World Championship, Dick Button immediately announced on the air that Michelle Kwan's goose is cooked. She will never win a championship with this panel. (When the judges were individually named later, one of them turned out to be a certain Salome C.)

you can look at my first posts from these worlds about the TP and the juding panels yes, judges are drawn... but then... we get this

it sucks... there should be a draw but there should also be a quota per region to make it more even.. but i guess it's too simple and too complicated at the same time for the ISU

 

[Mathman]

Is it written somewhere how the judging panels are selected for each competition? Are the names drawn? Is there a rotation on a list? Once invited (if that's what happens), can a judge accept or refuse the assignment, and if one refuses for whatever reason, are there then alternates or do they draw another name, or...?

This information might be out of date, but I think that the procedure is supposed to go something like this. Every member nation of the ISU puts its name in the hat for the random draw, except for countries that opt out because they do not have any judges in a particular discipline on the ISU international judges list. For major events this is done months in advance.

Then each National Federation that has been selected gets to choose internally which individual judge to send. In the 2002 pairs scandal. once France had made their choice, Madam La Goigne started receiving a raft of personal favors (birthday presents,invitations to parties, etc.) from both Canadian and Russian federation officials, LOL.

I have often been suspicious of the "randomness" of the initial draw (although it is duly witnessed and certified with appropriate ceremony) because the major feds seem to be chosen with much greater frequency than others.

The idea of having a quota by geographical region has been floated for decades, but never received much traction. The last thing the ISU needs is to give official approval to the formation of an Asia block, a Europe west of 20 degrees latitude bloc, etc.

Edited to add: By the way, in writing this post I had to Google "Longitude of major European cities." The Google AI summary offered, "It seems there's a misunderstanding in the search results. The OPenStreeetMap entry provided coordinates for the European Union as a whole, not major European cities.

When figure skating judging is taken over by AI, I hope the ISU stands firm in demanding at least a three-judge panel, one robot and two humans.

 

[Andrea82]

This information might be out of date, but I think that the procedure is supposed to go something like this. Every member nation of the ISU puts its name in the hat for the random draw, except for countries that opt out because they do not have any judges in a particular discipline on the ISU international judges list. For major events this is done months in advance.

Then each National Federation that has been selected gets to choose internally which individual judge to send. In the 2002 pairs scandal. once France had made their choice, Madam La Goigne started receiving a raft of personal favors (birthday presents,invitations to parties, etc.) from both Canadian and Russian federation officials, LOL.

I have often been suspicious of the "randomness" of the initial draw (although it is duly witnessed and certified with appropriate ceremony) because the major feds seem to be chosen with much greater frequency than others.

The idea of having a quota by geographical region has been floated for decades, but never received much traction. The last thing the ISU needs is to give official approval to the formation of an Asia block, a Europe west of 20 degrees latitude bloc, etc.

For ISU Championships, the procedure is broadly still the same.

Only ISU judges can officiate at ISU Championships.
Worlds/Junior Worlds: draw is among countries with an entry in that discipline in the previous edition of said Championship. 13 countries are drawn. If there were less than 13 countries present in previous edition entered in the draw, there is an additional draw with all other ISU members to fill the remianing spots.

Europeans: same but with only European Feds.

4 Continents: only 9 countries are drawn. First draw: Feds with an entry the year before in that discipline. If they are less than 9, additional draw with all other 4 Continents Feds. If it is still not enough, a further draw with Euro Feds willing to serve.

After the draws, drawn Feds nominate the individual judges.
____

Olympic

13 countries are drawn for each discipline.
First draw: done among countries who qualified a spot at Worlds
If needed, additional draw with countries which qualified a spot at the September's Qualifying competition (if they are not yet represented in the panel)
If needed, additional draw among countries present at previous edition's Worlds but not qualified for Olympics.

After the draws, drawn Feds nominate the individual judges.
Only ISU judges who have officited at least twice at ISU Championships/Olympic Qualifying Competition can serve at Olympics.
______

In all other type of events, "international" judges can also serve.

Senior Grand Prix: there isn't a rule. However, the usual practices is that hosting Feds ask Feds with an entry to nominate a judge. Then, if needed, they fill the rest of the panel with whoever they want.

Junior Grand Prix: Feds with an entry are also entitled to nominate a judge.

Challenger Series and B events: same. Feds with an entry are asked to nominate a judge. If there are not enough nominated judges (in B events can happen), organizing committee invite the remaining judges.


Technical panels and Referees:

ISU Championships and Olympics: ISU pick up the officials. Hosting Fed can propose 2 technical specialists, controllers or referee for Singles and Pairs. And 1 for Ice Dance

Senior and Junior GPs: ISU pick up the officials.

Challenger Series: hosting Fed propose the composition of the tech panels and referees. ISU must confirm these names.

Other international events: hosts select the referees and tech panel members.

 

[Diana Delafield]

When figure skating judging is taken over by AI, I hope the ISU stands firm in demanding at least a three-judge panel, one robot and two humans.

I can see it now: "That robot was obviously programmed to prefer the Xian skaters! Where was it made? Who programmed it?"

 

[TontoK]

I can see it now: "That robot was obviously programmed to prefer the Xian skaters! Where was it made? Who programmed it?"

I welcome our robot overlords.

 

[chepe]

Aze judge underscored everyone in the Free Dance except for Fear/Gibson (he had them 2nd),

That judges love for F/G, especially in Euros, is most baffling for me - 135pts? Srsly?

Anyhow, I don't have major beef with Worlds results myself. I think F/G were overscored in Free, but OTOH it's not like closest competitors did wonders either. I thought Chock/Bates RD was a snoozefest, but their FD was smooth as silk and deserving winner.

 

[chepe]

I can see it now: "That robot was obviously programmed to prefer the Xian skaters! Where was it made? Who programmed it?"

Guignard/Fabbri FD will be seen as a cynical attempt to please the robot judges

 

[Mathman]

I welcome our robot overlords.

In many strategy games (chess for example) AI has progressed to the point where robots have no human peer.

Last year the Yamakawa Laboratory at the University of Tokyo announced the debut of the World Champion Rock-Paper-Scissors robot, appropriately named Janken. Janken wins against any human opponent 100% of the time. It can observe and anaylyze tiny muscular twitches that foretell what hand position the human is preparing in his/her mimd and can respond (using its mechanical hand) with the winning play in a thousandth of a second.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I welcome our robot overlords.

 

[TontoK]

In many strategy games (chess for example) AI has progressed to the point where robots have no human peer.

Last year the Yamakawa Laboratory at the University of Tokyo announced the debut of the World Champion Rock-Paper-Scissors robot, appropriately named Janken. Janken wins against any human opponent 100% of the time. It can observe and anaylyze tiny muscular twitches that foretell what hand position the human is preparing in his/her mimd and can respond (using its mechanical hand) with the winning play in a thousandth of a second.

Apparently, mass-produced personal robots are on the way. I've already decided to name mine Jeeves, so none of you can use that one.

Imagine it: "Jeeves, I'd like Wolfgang Puck's mac and cheese for supper. You can start when you finish cleaning the bathrooms and vacuuming. While I'm sleeping tonight, please take care of the garden chores. I noticed a squeak somewhere when you drove me to the doctor today, please find out what that is and fix it. Also, please pay all the bills. When you have a moment, use your built-in AI capabilities to plan my vacation, finding the best deal taking into account seasonal pricing and monetary exchange rates."

Off-topic, but fun: I'm not much of a cake guy, so I ask for something different for my birthday. My wife made that mac and cheese for me one year. I didn't realize, or I wouldn't have asked, but it took her most of the day and dirtied every dish in the house in preparation. The kitchen looked like a war zone. I tried to get her to abandon it about halfway through, but by then the woman was on a mission. She gets that way, I accept it. Anyway, it was absolutely worth the 5000 calories that must have been crammed into each serving.

 

[4everchan]

Michael Slipchuk about LaLa adn the free dance rankings
Robert Brodie interview

“I’ll be honest, I don't know. I don’t see it. I thought they skated as well as they skated all year, and how that (score) was significantly lower, I don’t know,” he said in reaction to their results. “But with Marj and Zach, they’re competitive. They want to win, they want to be up there. And so, as I said to them after (the event), I wouldn’t want to be a team ahead of you right now, because they’re going to be hungry.

“Even from that moment, I know they were disappointed, but you could just see that fire that (tells you) they’re going to get back there. And this stuff happens. We’ve been through it with Piper and Paul. We’ve been through it with other teams, where sometimes you can’t really explain what happened. There were other teams in that event, too, that were surprisingly in a different position than I think people expected coming in, but that’s sport. Once Worlds is done, it’s over, and now we prepare for the next season.”

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Great insights on 2025 Worlds ice dance events from two podcasts:

Iron Butterfly with Polina Edmunds and guest, Jean Luc Baker! I could listen to Jean Luc all day. They had a wonderful give-and-take conversation. Jean-Luc dates one of the top competitors and he choreographed the FD for another top ten team. Even so, he has the knowledge, fairness, and ability to handle his entire commentary with professionalism and enlightening detail. He makes very good analogies. I particularly enjoyed hearing Jean-Luc's and Polina's comments about talented teams who maybe did not have the right material, and up-and-coming teams who need to develop a better connection with each other. J & P are very diplomatic and constructive in their discussion of Davis/Smolkin, the Czech teams, why the lower placements for the French team and for Lajoie/ Lagha. Well worth a listen:

- YouTube

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youtu.be

Also, Tony Wheeler's and Thomas Vu's excellent new podcast, The Skating Session. These guys understand so much about the rules, which is so helpful to hear. Plus, Tony has such good ideas for changes the ISU should make, in all disciplines. Here is their review of 2025 Worlds pairs and ice dance events:

- YouTube

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youtu.be

 

[TontoK]

It struck me today that Fear and Gibson now have a world medal. Hawayek and Baker don't.

This is one of the great injustices in sport, and proof that timing is everything.

 

[TontoK]

Great insights on 2025 Worlds ice dance events from two podcasts:

Iron Butterfly with Polina Edmunds and guest, Jean Luc Baker! I could listen to Jean Luc all day. They had a wonderful give-and-take conversation. Jean-Luc dates one of the top competitors and he choreographed the FD for another top ten team. Even so, he has the knowledge, fairness, and ability to handle his entire commentary with professionalism and enlightening detail. He makes very good analogies. I particularly enjoyed hearing Jean-Luc's and Polina's comments about talented teams who maybe did not have the right material, and up-and-coming teams who need to develop a better connection with each other. J & P are very diplomatic and constructive in their discussion of Davis/Smolkin, the Czech teams, why the lower placements for the French team and for Lajoie/ Lagha. Well worth a listen:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

Also, Tony Wheeler's and Thomas Vu's excellent new podcast, The Skating Session. These guys understand so much about the rules, which is so helpful to hear. Plus, Tony has such good ideas for changes the ISU should make, in all disciplines. Here is their review of 2025 Worlds pairs and ice dance events:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

I'm familiar with Polina and Jean Luc, of course. It will be interesting to hear from them. Thank you for the link.

I've never heard of Wheeler and Vu, so I googled them. Have I missed something? They appear to be fans, but I'm not sure I see any professional level insight they could impart. I watched the link for just a second to get a flavor. Two guys who've never really been in the game on a split screen, spouting opinions but treating them as the Gospel? Seen that, and no thanks. If I'm wrong and they really do have some qualifications, let me know.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

It struck me today that Fear and Gibson now have a world medal. Hawayek and Baker don't.

This is one of the great injustices in sport, and proof that timing is everything.

It's also simply proof that the sport is not well-constructed competitively to meet the needs of new age athletes and the demands of current era depth of talent.

Plus, as always, luck (both bad and good) is in the details.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I'm familiar with Polina and Jean Luc, of course. It will be interesting to hear from them. Thank you for the link.

I've never heard of Wheeler and Vu, so I googled them. Have I missed something? They appear to be fans, but I'm not sure I see any professional level insight they could impart. I watched the link for just a second to get a flavor. Two guys who've never really been in the game on a split screen, spouting opinions but treating them as the Gospel? Seen that, and no thanks. If I'm wrong and they really do have some qualifications, let me know.

No, no. These guys are very knowledgeable. You will not be disappointed in listening to them. In one of the segments, Wheeler and Vu explained that they are long time fans of fs from elementary school ages! They are both well known commenters on another skating forum. Wheeler, in particular, is a skating insider who has cut music for skaters, etc. He had a previous short-lived YouTube podcast circa 2017-18 or so, with some great interviews, especially the one with Fear/Gibson when they were first gaining exposure and popularity in ice dance. Wheeler is also a longtime fs blogger, and he's on IG. He is acquainted with a lot of skaters, but he doesn't have a big head about it like another name-dropping former skating podcaster we all know. Both Vu and Wheeler sat in the stands at Boston Worlds with some bigtime former skaters and officials, including Polina, BrianB, et al.

In addition, a huge bonus is that both Wheeler, and Vu (especially in ice dance) have expert knowledge of the rules and a great ability to explain the rules. They joked that they enjoy reading ISU rulebooks for fun. But seriously, they do, no kidding.

For sure, they are giving their opinions, which you may not agree with. But, I found that I mostly agree with them, and I gained a greater understanding of the Worlds event because they were there and shared things that streaming viewers would not have experienced. I believe Wheeler has taken lessons and possibly competed as an adult. Not sure. They are both really passionate about the sport. Above all, they are fair-minded, intelligent, and constructive in their commentary. No snark.