2025 Worlds: Pairs' thoughts and comments

[BlissfulSynergy]

They would've won if the lift stayed up. Lifts garner the most points, but when they go wrong they are the most costly. It is a bitter pill, but the results are actually fair.

Yes, but the lift was NOT aborted. It just came down a tad too soon. Still, the loss of a few points on that element vs the bravura performance Hase/ Volodin executed should not have prevented H/V from winning overall. It's certainly a good excuse for them not winning. Yet, H/V were the only top team to skate two clean performances.

H/V won the small gold medal as they won the fp. Meanwhile, M/K were overscored in the sp and in the fp, IMO. Judges are overly generous to C/M, too. In any case, judges were split, with a few giving H/V positive GOE on the final lift and others ranging from -1 to -3. Overall, a 0.27 deduction on a lift that would possibly have scored at least 2+ pts. So yes, that would have placed H/V well ahead of problematic fps by M/K and C/M. Still, even with the small deduction on the final lift, I feel H/V should have edged M/K overall! The judges could have given the final lift neutral or something like +0.10 (which is still a loss of GOE). Plus, H/V deserved higher scores in the sp vs what was given to M/K and C/M. That's where the difference actually lies. IMO, H/V deserve to have edged M/K overall instead of M/K edging H/V.

Conti/ Macii should NOT have placed ahead of H/V in the sp. C/M's skating and choreo are in no way a cut above H/V's skating and choreo! With all three top teams skating cleanly in the sp, the sp scoring result with Miura/Kihara so far ahead and C/M placed 1.02 pt ahead of H/V seems to me to be a political result favoring the top Japan and Italy pairs teams for Milan 2026, especially with a Russian pair set to enter the Beijing qualifier to also compete in Milan.

Talented Hase/ Volodin have demonstrated though, that they won't be pushed aside without a fight!

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Owe, so sorry for Danny. BTW, I think his "throws" are pretty consistent (he has worked with other partners; but Ellie can't land any of them). I think if she can't do them by now (I can't remember her ever landing one), they should rethink their partnership. I don't mean to be negative, but she's going to hurt herself physically (and maybe mentally) if she keeps it up.

Yes, as hard as it is to believe Ellie has landed some of her throw triples. When she first partnered with Danny, she had only competed in junior pairs for a couple of seasons. She was just beginning to learn 3-throws, sbs triples, and 3-twist pairs elements. The issue is that Ellie was unexpectedly paired with a top veteran skater so there was greater than usual pressure and scrutiny immediately.

The wonderful thing is that Danny trusts and believes in Ellie and in their partnership. Danny's patience and loyalty has paid off. Ellie has mastered the 3-twist and she has greater consistency on sbs triples. It is the 3-throws that she still has yet to fully master under pressure in competition.

With all the superb talent that Danny & Ellie exude in their synchronous athleticism, their smooth, elegant movement qualities, their difficult transitions, great music selections, gorgeous costumes, engaging choreo, and superlative lifts, death spirals, and 3-twist, why would they ever consider packing it in? A lot of athletes would never improve, much less win anything if they followed your 'give up' negative thinking advice.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I wrote the following post in 2024 GP France Men's thread:


Really, if you're technically consistent with big elements and at least somewhat watchable/likable, your PCS will start in the 8s and then naturally get bigger over time. The fact that Metelkina/Berulava didn't consistently get 8s here actually tells me that the judges don't really like them that much. Their performance and music were both so boring, and their presentation PCS was rightly in the 7s, even lower at Worlds than at Europeans. Plus, they made a lot of little errors that really deflated it.

The ISU then need to own up about how PCS scores are actually being considered, and what those scores are actually judging. They never will be honest, though. It's a flawed system. And there is blind resistance to truly examining the problems with scoring and being thoughtful about how to resolve. They just stodgily and glacially make unhelpful, mixed result changes every so often that don't address the actual issues.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes, but the lift was NOT aborted. It just came down a tad too soon. Still, the loss of a few points on that element vs the bravura performance Hase/ Volodin executed should not have prevented H/V from winning overall. It's certainly a good excuse for them not winning. Yet, H/V were the only top team to skate two clean performances.

H/V won the small gold medal as they won the fp. Meanwhile, M/K were overscored in the sp and in the fp, IMO. Judges are overly generous to C/M, too. In any case, judges were split, with a few giving H/V positive GOE on the final lift and others ranging from -1 to -3. Overall, a 0.27 deduction on a lift that would possibly have scored at least 2+ pts. So yes, that would have placed H/V well ahead of problematic fps by M/K and C/M. Still, even with the small deduction on the final lift, I feel H/V should have edged M/K overall! The judges could have given the final lift neutral or something like +0.10 (which is still a loss of GOE). Plus, H/V deserved higher scores in the sp vs what was given to M/K and C/M. That's where the difference actually lies. IMO, H/V deserve to have edged M/K overall instead of M/K edging H/V.

Conti/ Macii should NOT have placed ahead of H/V in the sp. C/M's skating and choreo are in no way a cut above H/V's skating and choreo! With all three top teams skating cleanly in the sp, the sp scoring result with Miura/Kihara so far ahead and C/M placed 1.02 pt ahead of H/V seems to me to be a political result favoring the top Japan and Italy pairs teams for Milan 2026, especially with a Russian pair set to enter the Beijing qualifier to also compete in Milan.

Talented Hase/ Volodin have demonstrated though, that they won't be pushed aside without a fight!

Here's the lift at Worlds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHBJk7NUcns#t=4m25s

Here's the lift at Euros: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSQRGNazNic#t=4m27s

I wouldn't say it's an aborted lift (that usually refers to a lift that goes up but has to come down early. They still did the intended rotations on the ice but the cartwheel exit was "aborted". The lift still was legit, but it was costly. It also isn't the best lasting impression for the judges either right at the end.

I would have had them first. M/K made way too many errors here and there and did not earn 72 PCS. And in the SP they were a tad overscored as well (even though they were still the best pair in the SP).

Still a great result for H/V! And I've always rooted for the Japanese pair so it's nice to see them at the top of the podium again.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I am genuinely intrigued by that you think Ellie/Danny have a great connection. All I am able to see is a very tense, frightened even, Ellie (I would be in her place!) who is probably anticipating another fall on a throw, and a permanent smile on Danny's face which I first thought very endearing but with time it started annoy me because 1) it is kinda a constant in no relation to the music or what's happening on the ice 2) in the contrast to Ellie's face expression looks very odd
Having said all that I do appreciate their good SS, transitions and lifts. I just don't perceive them as a pair.

To each their own. Ellie/ Danny are a gorgeous pair team with exquisite qualities that judges and peers alike recognize and value. They have not and will not give up simply because they face difficult challenges. Every team faces innumerable challenges.

Moreover, Danny cares about and respects Ellie as a person and a partner. He isn't skating purely for his own ambitions, but largely for the joy in the process of connecting and working prodigiously with his partner and their team, while giving all they've got to their performances, and appreciating what they receive back from audiences/ fans. Anyone who can't see or refuses to acknowledge how good Ellie/ Danny are together can continue on with their negative sideline judgements. I personally will continue to root for them and enjoy watching them reach for their best.

 

[cailuj365]

The ISU then need to own up about how PCS scores are actually being considered, and what those scores are actually judging. They never will be honest, though. It's a flawed system. And there is blind resistance to truly examining the problems with scoring and being thoughtful about how to resolve. They just stodgily and glacially make unhelpful, mixed result changes every so often that don't address the actual issues.

It's flawed and always will be flawed.

Still better than 6.0, IMO.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Here's the lift at Worlds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHBJk7NUcns#t=4m25s

Here's the lift at Euros: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSQRGNazNic#t=4m27s

I wouldn't say it's an aborted lift (that usually refers to a lift that goes up but has to come down early. They still did the intended rotations on the ice but the cartwheel exit was "aborted". The lift still was legit, but it was costly. It also isn't the best lasting impression for the judges either right at the end.

I would have had them first. M/K made way too many errors here and there and did not earn 72 PCS. And in the SP they were a tad overscored as well (even though they were still the best pair in the SP).

Still a great result for H/V! And I've always rooted for the Japanese pair so it's nice to see them at the top of the podium again.

Yes, H/V left out the full impact of the dismount with the early come down, but they saved it from being a total washout at the end with a double fall, eh! That in itself is something for them to be proud of. For sure, the lift was not aborted, it just came down earlier than planned, and thus minus the dramatic dismount. That should not take away from the impact of H/V's stellar performance. It only takes away perception-wise because the Japanese team, IMO, is overly favored when they skate clean, and helped a lot when they make mistakes. Witness 2022 Worlds result. SMH. The powers-that-be wanted M/K to win Worlds that year but they were messy in both programs, and truthfully should have finished off the podium instead of taking silver. If H/V were being fully politically-backed and esteemed, that saved dismount would not have mattered. After all, the judges consistently ignore M/K's contact on their 3-twist dismount and give them high GOE because it looks good in the air and they are a favored team.

I agree mostly with your assessment. However, while I admire and respect the speed, deep knee-bend and SS of M/K, I am not drawn in nor fully engaged by their skating. They were pushed up quickly when it was noticed how good they were becoming, in order to help Japan win a team medal at 2022 Olympics. A similar embiggening is underway for 2026 Olympics. M/K are wonderfully well-suited as partners but they haven't yet captured my emotions. They have better music this season, but they tend to skate over it rather than expressing its nuances. In turn, the music does not enhance or define who they are as a team.

Of course, good music selection rarely happens for most teams. Alisa/Misha and Ellie/ Danny have great music this season. Conti/ Macii chose something significant for them, but not that exciting or special for the audience. Deanna & Max had great, defining music last season, but not this season. I think Minnie & Nik and their coaching team chose interesting, purposeful music. Despite some fan critiques, I was entertained and I appreciate how hard they worked on trying to develop character and concept, which is a step forward in their partnership journey.

The year Mishina/ Galiamov won worlds, their music made a huge impact. For 2021-22 season, M/G had boring, annoying music choices. Tarasova/ Morosov perennially made poor music choices, which eventually inproved after they left Nina Mozer and kept switching coaches. It is the right music and choreo that can make a huge difference, so we'll see what happens for contending teams in the upcoming Olympic season.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

It's flawed and always will be flawed.

Still better than 6.0, IMO.

There are certainly improvements that could be made if there was dedicated intention and thoughtful care to do so. There needs to be inclusive (not exclusive and conflicting) input from skaters, coaches, choreographers, tech specialists and judges, not just ISU committee powers-that-be. As the ISU is currently constituted and run, beneficial change won't happen, of course.

 

[moonvine]

To each their own. Ellie/ Danny are a gorgeous pair team with exquisite qualities that judges and peers alike recognize and value. They have not and will not give up simply because they face difficult challenges. Every team faces innumerable challenges.

Moreover, Danny cares about and respects Ellie as a person and a partner. He isn't skating purely for his own ambitions, but largely for the joy in the process of connecting and working prodigiously with his partner and their team, while giving all they've got to their performances, and appreciating what they receive back from audiences/ fans. Anyone who can't see or refuses to acknowledge how good Ellie/ Danny are together can continue on with their negative sideline judgements. I personally will continue to root for them and enjoy watching them reach for their best.

I agree with all this.

 

[moonvine]

It's flawed and always will be flawed.

Still better than 6.0, IMO.

I would go back to 6.0 in a hot second.

 

[cailuj365]

The day we get 100s for PCS will be a special day indeed.