A fascination with clean | Page 3 | Golden Skate

A fascination with clean

Oh, I totally agree... and must admit to climbing up on the soapbox and then hitting submit without re-reading my post to clairfy... I just get sick of the "wuz robbing" and argument that pointed toes should count for more than perfection on ice... Its justannoying to someone who watches for the sport aspect. Espcially after a worlds competition where all four golds went to teams that were simply technically & perforance-wise superior to the runner-ups and people still complain...


ITA with you!!! :clap:
All the four gold winners had great performances and people still complain. Miki didn't skate conservatively, she did twice a triple Lutz/triple loop combo. It is a very difficult combo. Last year people complaind about Kimmie, but she was great last year and deserved that gold.
I have to admit that also I did complain when Sarah won the 2002 Olympics, because I wanted Michelle in the 1st place instead. But Sarah had the performance of her life and Michelle fell. So Sarah deserved that gold. After figures were eliminated, IMO all the Olys and Worlds gold medalist in Ladies deserved their golds. For some silvers and bronze I'm a bit skeptical, though.
 
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Also one could compare it to listening to a concert pianist playing Beethoven for example. Would you enjoy the concert if the pianist constantly hit wrong notes? It would certainly take away from the beauty of the music being played. Concert pianists srtive for perfection likewise figure skaters strive for that "perfect" or "clean" skate.

The difference, though, is that concert pianists are aiming, above all, to serve the composer and the audience.

It would make more sense to compare what they're doing to skaters performing in a show, although skating shows do not have the same prestige that competitions or piano concerts do.

In some contexts concert musicians will serve their own egos or competitive instincts by playing difficult cadenzas to showcase technical skills, and in those cases a wrong note might be more forgivable if its clearly a product of the risky difficulty attempted.

Skaters who are competing, on the other hand, are aiming to prove their superiority to the rest of the skaters in the combination of technical content and execution. That includes taking risks by including more difficult moves than can *reliably* be performed perfectly every time. That includes adding nuances to moves (e.g., upper body movements in step sequences or elsewhere that make the steps more difficult but also more expressive/artistic than they would be with neutral body positions) that increase the beauty of the performance when successful but also increase the risk of error. Also, ice is slippery. And gets cut up by previous skaters. Each skater needs to balance the need to include as much difficulty as possible to compete with others who will be doing the same with the need to minimize errors. There's no way to win if you play it so safe that there's no risk of failure.

Suppose there were a sport of competitive piano playing that gave points for both difficulty and style. Also suppose that the keys would be greased. :biggrin:

Players would need to devise the most difficult passages they could have a chance of executing successfully and expressively, possibly with extra points for varying the relationship between the player's body and the piano in creative ways, knowing that there was a good chance that their fingers (or other body parts) would slip. Do they play something simple and safe, knowing that other players will take more risks? Or do they take the risks and accept the likelihood of some wrong or missed notes?

That might actually an exciting competition to watch/listen to, and rewarding to the audience because of the excitement and the suspense as to *whether* each player would succeed in playing a "clean" performance. The sport might involve players composing their own passages (or hiring composers to provide them with passages that best highlight their particular skills), or they might use established pieces from the repertoire, but either way, the point of that sort of piano competition would not be about who best serves the composer's intention. Thus, it would be a lot less like existing piano competitions or concerts, and a lot more like skating competitions.
 
This comparison between "all art artists" and "athlete artists" is not computing for me. AT ALL. FS is a blend of both athletics and art. The art is delivered via a athletic forum. Singers and pianists are not running 4 minute miles while also performing artistic, the comparison is only half there if even that.

Maybe if the pianist was jogging or on a stair master while playing there would be some form of relevant comparison. Not to mention making them have balance tech and require....etc....*shrugs*
 
You know what... let's keep it real... I simply like perfect programs with great music, strong edges, perfect spirals without crotch shots, good costumes, clean jumps, clear choreography that doesn't require "method acting," passion and hot footwork.

That's you keeping it real?! Way to have high standards KW - i can see why Kwan is the only choice given your criteria :rofl: I think she's the only one that fits the bill...even my other great love in skating Alexei made some bad costume choices and had a tendancy towards "hammy" choreo are times in his career!

As for Kwan at the games... sooo many kwaniacs whined about Sarah & Tara without focusing on the fact that in one case she was outskated and then she fell. Its sad, but she lost because she didn't skate perfectly.

See i agree with you about Kwan - i think the results were correct at both Olympics but the only disagreement was that she wasn't perfect at the Nagano Olympics - she was absolutely perfect in every way its just that North Americans saw her being sublime at nationals that year and for some that detracted from her performance. For me, i never saw nationals since i'm in the UK and i still watch the Nagano LP and don't understand how anyone can say that isn't perfect.

Ant
 
So if more than one skater skates perfectly, the decision has to be made on something other than yes/no perfect/flawed.

Jump count? Speed? Spins? Footwork? "Artistry"? Whichever criteria the majority of judges choose, one of the skaters who was "perfect" is still going to lose.
 
Spun Silver/Hockeyfan228

I agree New Yorkers are very friendly, having had grandparents who lived in Manhattan all their lives. I loved to go there to visit them. Along with Washington, it's the greatest city in the world. But trust me, opera singers do get booed, especially where opera is a national treasure (Italy). It would be out of character for Americans to boo an opera singer. Not that many people appreciate opera in this country sadly. So we are talking apples and oranges.
 
That's you keeping it real?! Way to have high standards KW - i can see why Kwan is the only choice given your criteria :rofl: I think she's the only one that fits the bill...even my other great love in skating Alexei made some bad costume choices and had a tendancy towards "hammy" choreo are times in his career!

See i agree with you about Kwan - i think the results were correct at both Olympics but the only disagreement was that she wasn't perfect at the Nagano Olympics - she was absolutely perfect in every way its just that North Americans saw her being sublime at nationals that year and for some that detracted from her performance. For me, i never saw nationals since i'm in the UK and i still watch the Nagano LP and don't understand how anyone can say that isn't perfect.

Ant

And that's why she's the Greatest of All Time...

Dahling... don't you realize that's what seprates us ubers from mere mortals? And I choose to take your "way to have high standards" as a compliment vs. the disdain that might be implied... :)


As for Nagano... I do think Kwan skated a technically perfect program. I just think Tara skated a more passionatly perfect program... And you know what - for me, that was a perfect event... no errors, perfect skating and serious drama... LOVED IT!! I get tired of events where its the least mistakes win... its just not as much fun for me... oh well, there's always October...
 
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I think a lot of us have been spoiled by the clean performances of Michelle, Tara, Sarah. So, that is something we expect to see. Yea, I love a clean performance but I really prefer Sasha's style of skating. She took everything she did well to the max. People complained about her technique, but her jumps were beautiful. She had a way about landing them. The criticism people had about her edging, I never saw. She was as Peggy says "breathtakingly beautiful."

"The criticism people had about her edging, I never saw." I think it is the lack of that people refer to.
 
And that's why she's the Greatest of All Time...

Dahling... don't you realize that's what seprates us ubers from mere mortals? And I choose to take your "way to have high standards" as a compliment vs. the disdain that might be implied... :)

It was meant as a compliment and it was a genuine thought that for me Kwan is the only skater who fits that bill!


As for Nagano... I do think Kwan skated a technically perfect program. I just think Tara skated a more passionatly perfect program... And you know what - for me, that was a perfect event... no errors, perfect skating and serious drama... LOVED IT!! I get tired of events where its the least mistakes win... its just not as much fun for me... oh well, there's always October...

The Nagano Olympics i think is my favourite ladies Olympic LP of all time (even the SP was fantastic). To have Tara and Michelle perform clean perfect programs and than have Lulu make that amazing come back from injury and fighting with her federation to put down a perfect program (and even go for the
3T/3T at the end, just because she could!

Loved every last minute of it (even thoguh my heart broke for Kwan)...and i didn't even really mind the screaming and shouting of lipinski

Ant
 
Lulu make that amazing come back from injury and fighting with her federation to put down a perfect program (and even go for the
3T/3T at the end, just because she could!

Of course it wasn't "perfect" -- several of the jumps were flawed, including the 3-3. But it was a beautiful performance. Best of the event in that sense, IMO.
 
Of course it wasn't "perfect" -- several of the jumps were flawed, including the 3-3. But it was a beautiful performance. Best of the event in that sense, IMO.

I honestly can't remember any of the flaws except the seriously underrotated 3T at the back of the combination. I suppose what i meant was that she managed to skate up to the level she had in 1995 and 1996 despite the injury and problem swith the federation.

Ant
 
Yes....

Yes, I agree that there are uberfans of opera singers too, which may explain some of the booing but not all of it.

I also agree that many of us who crave clean performances were and are major Michelle Kwan fans. She created so many masterpieces in her early years and she has spoiled us. But she also showed us it was possible.
 
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