A much better Sasha Spiral

[Rgirl]

That's the whole point, RGirl. If your fingers are correctly positioned they look good at every moment and from whatever angle they are viewed. That's the whole point of the different plane thing. I got the pictures by doing a google image search on Sasha Cohen and taking the first three pictures of a spiral that popped up. OK, no fair. So I just went to Sasha's web site for the definitive spiral photo. Here it is (it's yours for $12.00 from the SashaShoppe). What do you think?

http://store.yahoo.com/sashacohen/spiralphoto.html

http://www.puresportsart.com/warehouse/mkwan98-1.jpg

http://www.icesk8.com/clipart/9720611.jpg

To me, this is attention to detail.

Mathman, re "To me, this is attention to detail," do you mean both MK and SC or just one?

Anyway, for me both Sasha and Michelle use their hands and fingers extraordinarily beautifully throughout their programs, as do certain other skaters, but I really like MK and SC's hands. I still can't go by photos, and I have to disagree that there is a "definitive" spiral photo for either Sasha or Michelle. I have to see them moving, gliding on the ice, extending their arms from the back, achieving those gorgeous spiral positions, and putting the icing on the cake with their hands and fingers, whether it be on video or in my memory. IMO, we are very lucky to be able to watch Michelle refine her tremendous skating more every year while she remains at her peak at the same time we get to watch Sasha grow and improve, hopefully into the kind of artist for which Michelle has set the standard--though in her own way of course. And those are just two of the many lovely, lovely skaters we are privileged to watch. I'm not trying to avoid the question of "whose fingers are better?" It's just that I honestly love them both the same but each in their own way. The whole effect of the hand is greater than the sum of each finger

If my computer could do videos, I'd put in links to Sasha doing her spiral sequences from "Malaguena" and "Swan Lake" and Michelle doing hers from "Tosca," "Aranjuez" and "The Feeling Begins." And if I could get it, I'd add Sasha's "Romeo and Juliet" from last season and Michelle doing "Fields of Gold." This way people could decide for themselves, although I think they alreadyhave I think they each would have more beauty in their little fingers than most of us have on the best night at the disco in our whole bodies--okay, I'll only speak for myself, since I'm sure your fingers on the disco floor are fabulous!
Rgirl

MM: Here's something to try: Analyze Michelle and Sasha's fingers geometrically, and come up with an equations that describes them. Then you could get an objective analysis of whose fingers are expressive in the greatest number of planes. Yes?
Rgirl

 

[Mathman]

Pati, oh, yes, you are certainly right. That underscores Rgirl's point that you can't tell much from still pictures, because in that picture I couldn't tell at first whether Sasha was going forward or backward.

Thanks for mentioning this, and welcome to the forum!

Rgirl, well of course I mean that both Sasha's and Michelle's hands are paragons of expressiveness, along with Jenny's, AP's, Beatrisa's and Angela's. Also Fumie, Shizuka, Carolina Yukina and Irina are exceptional in this regard.

For the men, I am particularly impressed by Van der Perren, Joubert, Abt, Klimkin, Buttle, Sandhu and Li.

Mathman

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Still pictures don't work for spirals, split jumps, etc. However, they can be camera clicked during a 'shoot'. The best, of course, are those captured at a championship or an exhibition.

I think Sasha should get full credit for improving the spirals of so many skaters. For some reason, Bobek and Kwan did not inspire others to do good spirals. Now all the Ladies are sporting good arabasques. I also think today that the big spiral trick is the change edge (or serpentine) spiral inspired by MK. The BC is defintely inspired by Sasha as well as the 360 degree Fan. MK gets the credit for the dusting off the Charlotte.

I just wish skaters would forget the catch foot spiral. Imo, ugly.

Joe

 

[nymkfan51]

I don't know Joe ... I think maybe the reason so many ladies are improving their spirals is because of the extra points they can get with COP.

 

[Pati]

I don't think the credit should go to Sasha, I think it should go to Peggy's opinion of Sasha's spiral. Sasha's lack of decent edges in her spirals is how I knew that pic wasn't a spiral pic (thanx for the welcome Mathman). I think she gives up the edge in order to do the split in her spiral. I just wish Peggy would comment on her lack of deep edges in her spirals too, instead of the gushing over her extension. JMO

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Pati - I believe you are correct. Peggy's comments on the extensions of Sasha's spirals and her criticisms of others who need "more stretch" probably has a lot to do with the overall improvement of spirals It was the same with Dick's insistance that the layback spin should be done in the 'attitude' position. More skaters are turning out the toe and knee while in the layback nowadays. But by the rules, their opinions are not rules but they do make for better looking spirals and laybacks.

And yes, when Sasha is in full flexed arabesque, she is on the flat but it is still very pretty. (It's safer.)

nymkfan - Maybe that's the motivation. Hitherto, spirals, spread eagles, fans, inabauers, I believe were taken for granted and thought of as 'moves in the field'. But now they have base scores which prompts movtivation of perfecting and innovating these moves.

The change edge spiral is a tough trick. One doesn't want to see bobbling on the free leg before, during, or after, the changeover edge.

Joe

 

[BravesSkateFan]

while I agree there are much prettier spirals out there, I don't think they are better spirals. Many skaters don't hold thier positions long enough, nor are thier edges deep enough. Yes the spirals may be prettier, but prettier doesn't always equal better.

 

[Rgirl]

Originally posted by Joe:

And yes, when Sasha is in full flexion arabesque, she is on the flat but it is still very pretty. (It's safer.)

I disagree, Joe. dosagree, and I've looked at Sasha's edges closely because of all the "she has no edge on her spirals" comments. I can only suggest that you look at videos of Sasha doing her spirals, except I seem to recall you don't do videos because of NY apartment space. Boy, I can relate, lol. So perhaps the next time you see Sasha skate, you might want to pay particular attention to her edges on her arabesque spiral. I'd like to see her get more of an edge on the front-extention spiral but IMO, the catchfoot 360-degree turn spiral is a beautiful example of great edging and edge control. Granted, though her edges have improved a great deal, they still have a ways to go before they're in the league of Michelle, Irina, Shizuka, Fumie, and others, but then Sasha has qualities other skaters don't--not that I don't want her to work on her edges. One thing I think would help her edges (and flow) is increased ankle and knee flexion. With relatively short legs, IMO such skaters have to work extra hard on these two areas to make the most of their edging and flow, no matter what they're doing.

Mathman,
Thanks for clarifying your comment.
Rgirl

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

rGirl - True no video tapes saved but I will look at Sasha's change edge spiral. There will be lots of contests coming up. I do agree that her FO spiral is on an excellent arc and therefore has to be on a perfect edge. It's just the change over one I question and I'll look again.

It's not unlike Sarah's reputation for underrotating jumps. I watched a repeat special the other night on TV where Sarah did her Fosse number. I particularlyh looked at the twp triples she did. The were not underrotated. I strongly suspect someon saw her skate on one of those days in Juniors and the jumps were indeed underrotated, and so the reputation began. It's like no one can improve once you faltered. You figure.

Even if Sasha's change edge spiral is not up to par, it doesn't mean it will stay that way forever. The positions, of course, are incredible.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

I'm still on the fence, Rgirl. There is only so much that the human body can do, even a human body as remarkable as Sasha's. I still think that Pati has a point -- the more you try to get that leg up there in a perfect 180, the more you have to be on the flat. I think that's why skaters like Michelle and Nicole Bobek achieve their amplitude by rotating their hips, instead of pulling their leg straight up and back. Something to do with the center of gravity?

Mathman

 

[Dee4707]

I just wish Peggy would comment on her lack of deep edges in her spirals too, instead of the gushing over her extension.

Ok Pati, so I will gush!! Sasha is the only female skater that makes me sit up and take notice. There is no other female skater that has that power over me but Sasha. I love watching every move she makes. Her spirals and extension are the most gorgeous that I have ever seen. Even when she has a bad skate---it (for me) is still beautiful!!!

I just love everything about her!!!

Dee

 

[BravesSkateFan]

I watched a repeat special the other night on TV where Sarah did her Fosse number. I particularlyh looked at the twp triples she did. The were not underrotated. I strongly suspect someon saw her skate on one of those days in Juniors and the jumps were indeed underrotated, and so the reputation began. It's like no one can improve once you faltered. You figure.

Hmm...I did notice that Sarah didn't underroatate her jumps at that event, but she does still often do it. She defintely underrotated at last years Worlds. I never did see her skate in Juniors but her underrotation is obvious to me when she does it.
But on that note, I do see where you are coming from. Often someone makes a comment on one of these boards,and some way or another it becomes the god's truth. Although most of the time there is at least some grain of truth to what's being said, I think some people are too quick to agree, or else they just look so hard for the flaw that its easer to see than on a skater whom you are not look for the flaw.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Sarah's DC Worlds Skate was not at her best nor did it seem to me that she cared one way or another. But her Oly Triple combos were right on and better than everyone else.

Joe

 

[Nadine]

This has been an interesting read...

But I have a question for you Rgirl, what do you mean by the following quote, especially when you say "increased ankle & knee flexion"??? Please explain, thanks in advance.

One thing I think would help her edges (and flow) is increased ankle and knee flexion. With relatively short legs, IMO such skaters have to work extra hard on these two areas to make the most of their edging and flow, no matter what they're doing.

BravesSkateFan, I agree with your observation that when someone makes a comment on the boards it suddently become's the god's truth........and not always positively.......even if there is a grain of truth to it. And that it's easier to look for a flaw in a skater that you don't particularly care for versus the opposite. Like that old saying goes "if you look hard enough for the bad in someone you will find it". That said, I for one am guilty of it *embarrassed*......lately in regards to Fumie Suguri and my saying that she has knocknees.......and I apologize to Fumie Suguri Fans and anyone else I might have offended. I blew it out of proportion *my sincerest apologies to Fumie especially*. I should know better, especially since something similar happened to me a few yrs. ago on the old FSW board. Being a huge Sarah Hughes Fan, I kinda had it out with a poster by the name of Louis about Sarah's spirals. And in the end his comments about Sarah having a bent knee in her free leg while executing her spiral became god's truth - even though it was only very slight - my gosh, you would think by the way his words caught fire on the net that she was the Quasi Moto of spirals, posture, et al. Yuck, now I find myself basically doing the same thing, just disgusted with myself in retrospect. I will not do it again.

***Note: btw it's too easy to find a pic of a skater one doesn't care for and try to illustrate a negative point.....though I haven't done it myself b/c I don't know how to (lol ), that's a good thing.....just recently seeing some comparison pics on several boards from a poster who doesn't like a certain skater makes me sick.***

As to the original title of this thread, I say that Sasha has always had phenomenal spirals (yada yada about edges et al).........may not be the best edge in the world but it certainly is not the worst, rather somewhere in between.........and that phenomenal 360-degree split she achieves is not just a result of flexibility, rather extremely hard work to achieve the maximum tension/stretch/extension. And to top it off with the pointed toes just blows my mind (no lie). In all my years of watching figure skating, I have never seen such pointed toes in skating (not even the ice dancers). She even does it when she jumps! My hat goes off to her - nobody but nobody finishes moves off the way Sasha does - and she rightfully deserves all those high presentation marks IMHO. Not only that, I like the fact that her setting such a high standard has (positively) influenced other young uns' to follow suit.

Before I end, I just wanted to say that my dream skate for Sasha would be the following (btw I'm including a 3/3 & a quad b/c I know she can do them, please please please): Beethoven's "9th Symphony to the Ode To Joy" (something I have always wished Oksana Baiul would have skated to *sigh*) ~ opening with the 4S to set the mood *crowd goes crazy*, Ina Bauer into 3Z/3T, beautiful 360-split spiral that traverses the entire ice, 3F, Biellmann Spin ala the way NNN does it, 3turns into 3R, blinding fast circular footwork with a Falling Leaf & Russian Splits included in it to the crescendo of Ode To Joy, 3T-.5R-3S sequence, running turns/splits? ala NNN into a lightning fast combo. spin *faints & is revived by the cheers of the crowd*!.

Peace & Love, Nadine

 

[Rgirl]

Originally posted by Nadine:

But I have a question for you Rgirl, what do you mean by the following quote, especially when you say "increased ankle & knee flexion"??? Please explain, thanks in advance.

Hey Nadine,
What I men by "increased ankle flexion" is more forward bend in the ankle, ie, toes closer to the shin, and by "increased Knee flexion" I mean deeper knee bend. It's the combination of the two that I think is important. If you have good ankle and knee flexion (or bend), as long as it's strong, you can get a deeper push into the ice and thus more speed off a single push, whether it's forward or back stroking. Increased ankle and knee flexion also allows you to get deeper into the ice and that creates better flow. Fumie Suguri and Shizuka Arakwawa are excellent current examples in the ladies of this. Especially Shizuka is good to compare to Sasha on this point because they both have relatively short legs whereas Fumie has relatively long legs. Assuming you skate or have skated yourself, try it on the ice or try to feel what it would feel like on your kitchen floor The reason is that the deeper you get in your ankle and knee flexion, the greater extension you get when you push off. This creates a longer and stronger single stroke. Keep that up and you've got speed, power, and flow. Yagudin and Ilia Kulik are good examples among the men, again Yags with is relatively short legs is better for comparing to Sasha. Hope that explains it. Thanks for asking

BTW, BravesSkateFan, I too appreciate your point about things getting posted once and then becoming gospel. I know sometimes I feel picky to correct someone on a point such as how many triples were landed or if a jump or jumps were underrotated. But I'd rather see things get corrected right away than get into people's minds the wrong way and then see people argue about it long after the event when its difficult to impossible to establish what really happened. Hopefully in the not too distant future we will have easy access to the videotape (or DVD) of each event online and such controversies can be quickly and easily settled as easily as we now can look at photos. I realize there is the whole copyright thing, but I hope the networks or preferably our dream of The Skating Channel will allow for online access of events that have already been broadcast. Just dreamin' online But good point, BSF.
Rgirl

 

[Pati]

Dee, I expect Sasha fans to gush. I feel the same way about Michelle.

I expect Peggy to be accurate.

I thought spirals had 3 points to be considered: edges, control, and flexibility. According to Peggy, 1 out of 3 ain't bad.As a matter of fact, according to Peggy 1 out of 3 is perfection, unbeatable even. Thats the part I disagree with.

 

[chuckm]

I agree, Pati. Sasha has flexible spirals, but she is almost always on the flat of her blade, which causes the spiral to skid. When she does attempt a change of edge, she can't hold the second edge for more than a second or two.

I do believe it is the extreme flexibility of her spiral position that makes her edges shallow. She is sacrificing both edging and control in favor of hyperflexibility.

Peggy is wrong, wrong, wrong when she says Sasha has the best spiral in the world. It would be correct to say Sasha has the best-looking spiral, but not the most technically correct one.

 

[kemy]

...and that phenomenal 360-degree split she achieves is not just a result of flexibility, rather extremely hard work to achieve the maximum tension/stretch/extension.

A 360-degree split isn't anything special. Even I can do that. I just stand here with my legs together.

I think you mean 180-degree.


Anyways, Sasha gets onto a decent outside edge nowadays and her inside edge seems to me coming along. Her control of her spirals is 100% better than in past years. I no longer see her wobble or raise her leg up partways, pause, and then finish. Her movement in her spiral is now smooth as can be.

But I will say this...her fan spiral is actually worse. Why is that? I've noticed several times now that her fan spiral travels in a straight line...not just when her concentration lapses.

 

[BravesSkateFan]

A 360-degree split isn't anything special. Even I can do that. I just stand here with my legs together.

actually that would be 0-degrees. Now if you took one of your legs brought it up, over your head and continued to the ground so that your knees were facing opposite directions (one toward your front, one toward your back) then you'd had a 360 split. and THAT would be impressive

 

[Mathman]

That would be a Moebius strip. (TM, if anyone could do it.) A 360 with a half twist. Do it twice and you're back where you started.

MM