A need for new rules to qualify skaters for Worlds

[gio]

You make no sense?

Someone has to have been a member of a nation for a year to skate for them. It's also not easy to just get up and switch your nationality, nor do many people WANT to.

~Z

If they don't want to, their problem!
As for switching, it is not difficult. There are some skaters that switched nationality in a year with no problem. Soldatova, Kierkgaard, Poth, Sheremet, the Ukrainian boy skating for Slovakia and a lot of other examples... You don't need to be a citizen of a country to represent that country in FS. With the exception of Olympics.

 

[chuckm]

The suggestion that skaters compete as individuals is not possible in the ISU setting. The ISU is an organization of member federations, not member skaters. In fact, individual skaters do not have any standing within the ISU except as members of their federation.

To institute such a radical change would require the establishment of an entirely different organizational structure to manage international competitions for individual skaters. I can assure you that the ISU would go to any lengths to prevent such an organization from getting off the ground. Any judges or skaters who dared to defect would be instantly ostracized.

NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

 

[gio]

There's also no point in switching, really. Doesn't matter if you can't get into the top 36.
~Z

There is, because if Fumie Suguri represented Thailand she would have certainly been at Worlds this year placing in the top 10.

 

[Zuranthium]

There is, because if Fumie Suguri represented Thailand she would have certainly been at Worlds this year placing in the top 10.

She would have been at the Worlds this year ANYWAY, skating for Japan, if the system I'm talking about was implemented. That's the entire point of this???

The suggestion that skaters compete as individuals is not possible in the ISU setting. The ISU is an organization of member federations, not member skaters. In fact, individual skaters do not have any standing within the ISU except as members of their federation.

To institute such a radical change would require the establishment of an entirely different organizational structure to manage international competitions for individual skaters. I can assure you that the ISU would go to any lengths to prevent such an organization from getting off the ground. Any judges or skaters who dared to defect would be instantly ostracized.

NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

Uhhh, the ISU would still be an organization of member federations and skaters would still be part of a certain federation. Not sure what you're talking about. The only difference now is that more than 3 skaters from a single country can go to Worlds/Olympics if that country has strong enough skaters (this is a good thing) and that WAY more skaters would be getting Grand Prix experience (this is also a very good thing).

~Z

 

[gio]

She would have been at the Worlds this year ANYWAY, skating for Japan, if the system I'm talking about was implemented. That's the entire point of this???

I already agreed with with your idea in this thread. I also think that there shouldn't be a limit at Worlds and to moltiplicate the Grand Prix to make it as a qualifier for Worlds.
Mine was a suggestion, because now the limit per country is 3 and it won't change for now. The only way to see more Japanese and American skaters at Worlds is if they switch nationality.

 

[Mafke]

The only difference now is that more than 3 skaters from a single country can go to Worlds/Olympics if that country has strong enough skaters (this is a good thing) and that WAY more skaters would be getting Grand Prix experience (this is also a very good thing).
~Z

Yeah, realistically which is better for a non-skating power like Flutzitania, being able to send its champion Roger McBunnyhop to the world championships (where he places 37th our of 39 and doesn't make it to the lp) or being able to send two or three skaters to gp events where they'll for sure get to skate both the sp and lp and get some experience?

I'd say the latter.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

You make no sense?

Someone has to have been a member of a nation for a year to skate for them. It's also not easy to just get up and switch your nationality, nor do many people WANT to. There's also no point in switching, really. Doesn't matter if you can't get into the top 36.

~Z

We all know the bloody RULES. We're just commenting on how the RULES could be broken.

 

[Zuranthium]

:scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

What, in your mind, is the rule that could be broken?

~Z

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

:scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

What, in your mind, is the rule that could be broken?

~Z

That the ISU only permits no more than 3 skaters from one country. You lost the meat of this thrdead?

Joe

 

[Mafke]

We all know the bloody RULES. We're just commenting on how the RULES could be broken.

Shouldn't that be "how the current rules should be changed" ???

 

[Zuranthium]

That the ISU only permits no more than 3 skaters from one country. You lost the meat of this thrdead?

Joe

That's the entire point I'm talking about which needs to be changed. Still not sure what you mean. It's not a rule that could be "broken"; it's a BAD rule that should be abolished.

~Z

 

[antmanb]

Radically better. Don't fear change.

~Z

I don't fear change at all - i would agree with these changes but you disagreed with me that they would be drastic changes to the current system...i was pointing out that i was in fact right!

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

That's the entire point I'm talking about which needs to be changed. Still not sure what you mean. It's not a rule that could be "broken"; it's a BAD rule that should be abolished.

~Z

Six of this and a half a dozen of the other. Abolish it or Change it, I don't care.

Joe

 

[Zuranthium]

I don't fear change at all - i would agree with these changes but you disagreed with me that they would be drastic changes to the current system...i was pointing out that i was in fact right!

Ant

Your use of the word "radical" made it seem like you thought they were bad changes.

~Z

 

[gsrossano]

The success/existence of many small federations, and their ability to get money form their government, or somewhere, is tied to the ability to send a skater to Worlds, or for the skaters to get a certain place at Worlds. The current method is a compromise between allowing each federation at least one skater, and allowing the bigger federations with better skaters, the chance to send more than one.

It is also a compromise based on how big Worlds can practically be. In principle it is possible to come up with a scheme that allows one from each country, but also more skaters from the federations with a lot of strong skaters. That is the easy part.

The hard part is to figure out how to run and pay for Worlds if you were to, say, have 100 ladies and 100 men in the singles events. How many days would this take? How would it be paid for? Is an event with 100 skaters even judgable?

Worlds is already a difficult event to run, pay for, and judge with 40+ skaters per singles event. That is the main reason the qualifying rounds went away. To save time and money as entries have grown.

 

[Mathman]

The success/existence of many small federations, and their ability to get money form their government, or somewhere, is tied to the ability to send a skater to Worlds, or for the skaters to get a certain place at Worlds.

Do the national federations get any credit (or supprt from governmental or private sources) for such activities as organizing national competitions or assisting local clubs with learn-to-skate programs?

What would happen if national federations went out of business, but the ISU (or its successor) still had a world championship to which it invited the world's top skaters as individuals?

 

[gsrossano]

Do the national federations get any credit (or support from governmental or private sources) for such activities as organizing national competitions or assisting local clubs with learn-to-skate programs?

I guess that depends on the country. But the motivation for govts to give money is very often only the international recognition, and that means sending a skater to worlds (and them not being an embarrassment).

What would happen if national federations went out of business, but the ISU (or its successor) still had a world championship to which it invited the world's top skaters as individuals?

I don't think national federations would "go out of business." Somebody has to organize the rules domestically in each country. What you are proposing, though, is that national federations would not have an international role, and the athletes would enter ISU competition directly.

Question then; if the ISU controlled all entrants directly and didn't allow at least one entry from each country, would that adversely affect interest in smaller countries?

Also, would that mean the ISU would have to host and organize every international competition of every level that currently takes place? If the national organizations were to no longer have an international role, why would any country want to hold an international competition -- particularly if they had no say in the operation of the ISU. The ISU has neither the money, nor people, to run every international competition in the world.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The success/existence of many small federations, and their ability to get money form their government, or somewhere, is tied to the ability to send a skater to Worlds, or for the skaters to get a certain place at Worlds. The current method is a compromise between allowing each federation at least one skater, and allowing the bigger federations with better skaters, the chance to send more than one.

It is also a compromise based on how big Worlds can practically be. In principle it is possible to come up with a scheme that allows one from each country, but also more skaters from the federations with a lot of strong skaters. That is the easy part.

The hard part is to figure out how to run and pay for Worlds if you were to, say, have 100 ladies and 100 men in the singles events. How many days would this take? How would it be paid for? Is an event with 100 skaters even judgable?

Worlds is already a difficult event to run, pay for, and judge with 40+ skaters per singles event. That is the main reason the qualifying rounds went away. To save time and money as entries have grown.

You are correct. This is what we all knew. but.....

I think the thread was trying to find a way to get other skaters than the 3 maximum permitted in big Federations to the Worlds.because many of them are simply better than most who do go.

So emphasizing the rules, does cut the topic short.

Joe

 

[hockeyfan228]

It is also a compromise based on how big Worlds can practically be. In principle it is possible to come up with a scheme that allows one from each country, but also more skaters from the federations with a lot of strong skaters. That is the easy part.

They could use a modified Olympics model:

1. Decide on max of X skaters for each discipline. Example: 48 or 50 for Mens, Ladies, and, maybe, dance. Break down the SP into two sessions.

2. Determine how many have qualified through the prior year's Worlds: one for each Federation, plus any additional skaters qualified based on the current placement scheme.

3. Determine who gets the balance of the spots, which could be done by:

a. Holding a qualifying event for everyone else in the world, who has met the minimum ISU criteria (skated in the GP event, seasonal personal best, etc.)

b. Awarding the spots based on the ISU criteria (seasonal personal best higher than any of the year's top 12 for GP)

All skaters who qualify in this way would skate with the lowest ranked skaters in the first SP/CD section.

 

[gsrossano]

I think the thread was trying to find a way to get other skaters than the 3 maximum permitted in big Federations to the Worlds.because many of them are simply better than most who do go.
Joe

So allow double the number already permitted (up to 6 for the big federations), and figure out how to hold it and pay for it.

And as for those who are simply better than most who go ...

If every singles skater in the U.S. who was better than the skaters just made the SP cut at 2007 Worlds was permitted to go, that would include every Juvenile and above singles skater who made it to Junior Nationals, Sectionals or Nationals.