All Things Ice Dance: Canadian

[ImaginaryPogue]

colleen, you know I agree, but C/P also beat W/P at the 2010 GPF.

 

[dorispulaski]

As to Lynn & Logan, they skated a lot better at US Nationals than at NHK. They screwed up three elements at NHK that they did correctly at US Nationals. Consequently, their TES was a lot better 39.29 at NHK,vs 48.07 at US Nationals, so almost 10 points of the difference in this case was improved technical performance. The tech panel at US Nationals was kind of middle of the road-not as tough as Euros, nor as loose as GPF.

NHK
Base 36.50 (level 2 on 2 steps, level 3 on one of the lifts)

TES 39.29
PCS 36.29
Total 75.58

US Nationals (level 3 on 2 steps, level 4 on all lifts)
Base Value 40.0

TES 48.07
PCS 44.11
Total 92.18

 

[colleen o'neill]

'Pogue .. That's OK ,I'm happy to stand corrected.. I was trying to operate from memory , and that one slid by me... But, what annoyed me was never that C/P won, here or there .. as the teams came up , they were close , but different... it was that W/P weren't recognised as being close by many in their own country , and relatively speaking , could barely get a mention. ( In spite of multiple close finishes ) How is that developing talent ?

 

[shan]

Great thread! Very informative. It's made me feel like I'm not crazy for shaking my head at G/P's scores. I watched their FD at the Challenge, saw the score and thought it could be just an aberration. But when it came up at Canadian Nationals, I was so bothered.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

'Pogue .. That's OK ,I'm happy to stand corrected.. I was trying to operate from memory , and that one slid by me... But, what annoyed me was never that C/P won, here or there .. as the teams came up , they were close , but different... it was that W/P weren't recognised as being close by many in their own country , and relatively speaking , could barely get a mention. ( In spite of multiple close finishes ) How is that developing talent ?

You know, if you recall, I came at this differently then you did. It didn't bother me that the close victories didn't get a mention - recall that there were five straight victories for C/P (Can 2010, SA 2010, GPF 2010, Nats 2011, 4CC 2011). Even if they were close, it's hard not to be impressed that every time, C/P came out on top. It didn't bother me that the fact that they jumped several places from Olympics to Worlds was factually roughshod. They did beat three teams that had beat them at the Olympics, and they were better. It was Beverly Smith. As long as she's not thumbing her nose at non-Canadian skaters, I think she's showing class.

I wasn't a C/P booster at this point, really. I loved "Eleanor Rigby" and loathed "Moulin Rouge" (the SDs had the obstacle of being SDs, but I think W/P had the stronger one, but the difference wasn't as dramatic), whereas the previous season had me prefering W/P's POTO to C/P's "Bohemian Rhapsody" (and W/P's flamenco to C/P's). Neither were V/M, which is where my obssession laid. I think each victory was correct.

But then these Nationals happened, and the results - well, they make me feel all conspiracy theory minded. I suspect that both R/H and P/I will fall out of the top twenty four for world ranking, limiting their exposure on the grand prix even further. Now, this could've been mitigated by sending one team to both 4CC and Worlds, but SC elected to split them. Now, did they do this to make it easier to get G/P two slots on the GP circuit (this might be clearer based on who's sent to Nebelhorn and other Senior Bs)? I don't think so, but that I wonder if Skate Canada is actively hindering one of it's teams itself is rather disappointing.

What should the teams do? Work like mad over the next couple years. Dig in. Get ready for the long haul.

 

[dorispulaski]

W&P are a team that wrote the book on how to succeed in Canadian ice dance when TPTB are not beating a pathway to your door.

1. Perservere
2. Get really good coaches, and this is important, not Canadian coaches (TPTB have entirely too much pull with coaches affiliated with their own federation. Remember, this is for skaters who are not appreciated by TPTB)
3. Identify what you really do well, and go with it (in their case, lifts & acting) Get more training in what you do well to really excel at it and separate yourself from the crowd.
4. Work (and then work more)
5. Identify what you do really badly, seek good advice on how to fix it and then
6. Work some more.

As my Grandma used to say, "Success crowns persistent effort."

 

[chuckm]

I was under the impression that USFS wasn't releasing Piper Gilles until 2013. How does that translate to G/P skating in the 2012-2013 GP which takes place entirely in 2012?

 

[colleen o'neill]

doris..I think you're right..wise woman , your Grandma.. P/I and R/H couldn't do better than to take a page from W/P's book. It's all they can do, anyway..so it should be with a coaching team that has a good record of guiding multiple talented teams, and international is better..

'Pogue.. V/M was where my obsession lay, too, and the one program that I really liked much better between W/P and C/P last year was W/P's SD which I thought was a standout ( Really dislike Moulin Rouge , but recognized the difficulty therein. Liked some of the difficult choreography ... not the face in the Jar ...and shapes in ER , not the version of the music, and not the unflattering costumes. Thought Fallin ' simply didn't work) No, it was really the hype and one sidedness that got to me, coming in spite of some controversial decisions between them at home.

When your champion is clear ,and you have more than one team closely competitive with each other at the next level, I think it's foolish ( at least ) to put all your eggs in one basket too soon.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I was under the impression that USFS wasn't releasing Piper Gilles until 2013. How does that translate to G/P skating in the 2012-2013 GP which takes place entirely in 2012?

My understanding was that she would be released March 2012. Lets find out

 

[trains]

My understanding was that she would be released March 2012. Lets find out

Sometimes the things that I see on this discussion board make me want to pull my hair out. But this is a great and insightful discussion. Thanks so much! (esp Colleen O'Neill, Dorispulaski & Imaginary Pogue)

 

[Dragonlady]

W&P are a team that wrote the book on how to succeed in Canadian ice dance when TPTB are not beating a pathway to your door.

When W&P debuted on the GP circuit, they had no success at all, finishing well back in the pack at their first Skate Canada. C&P, OTOH won the silver medal at their first GP event, and were 4th at TEB shortly thereafter. They were on the podium at every GP event they skated thereafter. W&P debuted at Skate Canada in 2008 and didn't make a GP podium until Skate Canada in Kitchener in 2009.

I strongly disagree that W&P were being held down or held back by Skate Canada. I was at Canadians when Vanessa fell in their FD and W&P finished 3rd to C&P's silver medal. W&P were tight, slow and had numerous little bobbles and missteps in theire program. They skated not to lose. They didn't fall but they didn't attack either.

When Vanessa bounced her butt off the ice, the two of them took off like the devil himself was chasing them and they nailed the rest of their program with speed and attack so I thought the decision a good one, although I really wish we'd had three spots that year. To their credit C&P got us that third spot so both teams were able to do the next year.

W&P were not being politiked to third place in Canada. It was reasonable and justified. And to their credit, they saw what they needed to do to improve and they've worked hard.

I am sick to death of people blaming politics for stuff that has to do with the skating, not who your coach is.

 

[bellafurr]

Thank you Dradonlady, I totally agree with you.

 

[Dragonlady]

I was under the impression that USFS wasn't releasing Piper Gilles until 2013. How does that translate to G/P skating in the 2012-2013 GP which takes place entirely in 2012?

The USFSA will release Piper in May of 2012, not 2013. The first Worlds they will be eligible to skate is in 2013, but they will be also be eligible for the GP circuit in 2012.

 

[colleen o'neill]

Dragonlady , I understand where you're coming from , but I don't believe that the people who are getting a whiff of politiks feel any less nauseated by it. They wish it wasn't so. I'm sure some of the concerns being voiced must be difficult to read for one who has known Paul for the greater part of his life, so let me assure you , that on my part , my feelings do not originate from any dislike of Paul. ( I'm sure the overwhelming number of posters here would say the same.)

Most of the positive aspects that people point to in his skating are undeniable ( Deep edges , finished extension, powerful acceleration , etc.) and I admire them. Together , he and Vanessa made a good team , and I'm not suggesting that their acheivements were only due to Politiks, but Politiks were certainly never against them. Besides their obvious strengths , they did have some noticeable flaws ( posture ) and some weaknesses ( lack of connection, poor costumes ) that remained largely unaddressed for the 3 yrs. I watched them at seniors . As a skating fan , this was very frustrating to me , since I could see their potential had the problems been addressed.

However , originally , I only meant to bring C/P up, here, to make a point about HYPE. They are no longer a couple ( for whatever reason ) but there's no denying they recieved a lot of promotion last year. Some very strong quotes came directly from SC, and these were picked up and used in turn , as talking points by various commentators and reporters ... in some cases added to, with mentions that C/P had been hard done by in the past, and misleading claims as to the degree to which they'd improved. It was really out of all proportion, IMO, overstepping the bounds of normal PR ( which is a good and useful tool , used within rational bounds ).... Some may feel it was deserved. I don't ... but there's no denying it was there. Hype definitely exsisted.

Now we see a similar situation building around a couple that at this point , certainly, is much less deserving than C/P, and wildly anomalous scores being awarded to them, and to them alone. If there is no Politiking going on, then we have to assume that we have a serious problem with the perceptions of our officials.

Of the two options , and based on past observation , I have to think Politiks is at work .. bad as it makes me feel. :disapp:

 

[Dragonlady]

Any hype in regards to C&P's last season together was hardly political or misplaced. They had finished 7th at Worlds in 2010 and secured that elusive 3rd spot for Canadian dance teams. Christopher Dean gave them a brilliant FD with which they won Skate Canada and the Bronze medal at the Grand Prix Final. And then the wheels started coming off the wagon. They looked tired and ragged at Canadians, and finished 3rd to the Shibutanis at 4CC. That was true of all of the North American skaters who made the GPF. The travel schedule just killed everyon. And then came Worlds and they split shortly thereafter.

I also disagree that nothing was done to correct their issues. Vanessa's posture improved enormously during the Olympic season. Working with the flamenco dancers really seemed to help her and a conscious effort was made on her part. I noticed the difference and complimented her on it. She was pleased that I noticed because of the effort she had expended. Marianne Stong was involved in their packaging for the 2010/11 season to address the comments around their costumes.

Hearing that C&P had split was shocking to me because of my personal connection to both skaters and I was really inclined to NOT like G&P. I strongly believe that skating together for 10 years gives a team things that cannot be replaced: matching lines, unison, and a sort of 6th sense as to where your partner is and what he/she is doing. When you reach out your hand, he/she is there. All of that is gone with a new partner. I was really personally inclined not to like Gilles & Poirier because I think Vanessa Crone is one of the sweetest nicest people I've ever met. But I do like Gilles & Poirier and I see great potential in this team. Were they overscored at Canadians: Yes. Do I think the placement was wrong? No.

I'm sorry but I am not a fan of Paul & Islam. This is the Canadian team that I find to be completely over-hyped and over-scored. I see a lot of potential in this team but as long as they are packaged as "Virtue & Moir lite" they look like pale imitations of the much more talented originals. I much prefer Ralph & Hill, but I also have to admit to the same level of personal bias for Asher Hill as for Paul and Vanessa and for the same reason. My daughter used to go to Scarborough for ticket ice when she competed and she's the same age as the young ice-dancers. They all hung out together at the rink, and at competitions. I know all of the kids from the Greater Toronto Area currently on the Canadian team, and their parents. It's the nature of being a skating parent.

I do try to be objective in analyzing the skaters and the teams, but I think it fair to other posters to acknowledge my biases.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I don't think D/W looked tired and ragged at 4CC, and they made the GPF.

It's interesting you mention P/I, because my thoughts were the same as yours - V/M lite. But their programs this season have really gone in a different direction and I'm pleased at their growth.

I guess we'll have to disagree about G/P. If the placement is correct and fair, than ice dance itself needs to be fixed

 

[Dragonlady]

It's interesting you mention P/I, because my thoughts were the same as yours - V/M lite. But their programs this season have really gone in a different direction and I'm pleased at their growth.

Yes, they have started to develop their own style and look. I'm also pleased to see that Mitch Islam is no longer dying his hair darker, or straightening it. He looks less like Scott Moir now. But this team looked slow and undertrained at Canadians.

G&P did a program that was less dance and more a series of interesting and entertaining tricks, but they were very difficult tricks and they carried off the program as well as they could at this point. Those who were there commented on their speed, power and flow as being VERY impressive. Live, these are things that impress and the problems with unison and newness are less noticeable.

I love unison and matching lines. It's the first thing I notice in a dance team. Nobody has matching lines and unison like V&M and it's one area where D&W have really improved this season. But I also note that P&B, who have IMO, very poor matching lines, seem to win a lot of medals without it.

 

[slipslidin]

I've been looking for a ' flogging a dead horse' smilie, but we don't have one yet. As a rank outsider, without any contacts in the skating world, I consider myself a keen observer and fan.
Let me just say that I thought C/P were a good team, that didn't persist, and I'm curious to see their future efforts with new partners.
Canadian hype, in ice dance, regardless of the team being backed, always seems to involve finding the new Torvil and Dean and changing ice dance in the world. I thought the old Torvil and Dean were a 'one off' but perhaps Nostradamus said the new ones would appear in Canada. Now, the reason I call these pronouncements hype, aside from their silliness, is that the same words are used by everyone in the media, as if guided by a press handout. And to top it off I've even heard dissenting opinions from the boards being 'spun' by TV commentators.
In the distant past, It was stated on TV that Skate Canada had a new policy of identifying and putting its efforts behind our champions. The idea seemed to be that the public needed one 'hero' to focus on, in order to build public interest. I have never heard that strategy has changed, but , for myself , I find close competition far more interesting than any fluff piece.

 

[dorispulaski]

USFS has that Hero strategy in the States, too, and frankly, I don't like it at all. It has resulted in the 13th place skater at Nationals being sent to 4cc'S It's fine when your hero is Michelle Kwan, but it's a bit more questionable when your hero is Richard Dornbush. Plus these kids start to believe their own press releases, and when they do that, they think they don't have to improve to keep their spots internationally as well as nationally.

It's a bad deal all around, plus I don't want skating to be entirely like the WWF-a play with predetermined winners and losers.

 

[slipslidin]

As a fan of horse racing I know how hard it is to pick a winner, and heartbreak is always lurking around the next turn.
Last fall I heard Michael Slipchuck pontificating about Skate Canada's success in the career of Virtue and Moir. I was a bit dubious when the hype began because I thought Tessa might outgrow Scott. Aside from that it didn't take a genius to spot the talent, and when they moved up to seniors, they presented themselves as well packaged contenders. But W/P ,who were good as soon as they teamed up, seemed to me to be allowed to ' just grow ' on their own, and I thought the problem was that they were in the same age group as V/M. Were V/M better ? Yes, I think so, but W/P should not have been ignored. To me it looked as though TPTB were looking to get a younger team in place to replace V/M.