All Things Ice Dance: Canadian

[Mathman]

It's difficult to know what "Just like we used to do" refers to. I believe the phrase refers to "just like we used to do under the 6.0 system." The rest of her answer doesn't make sense if it means it's something that no longer happens.

That is what I got out of it, too. (And Alla Shekhovtsoava -- the poster lady for crooked judging in ice dance -- ought to know!)

I took her meaning to be, back in the good old days we were utterly corrupt. The CoP was supposed to speak to this issue -- nudge, nudge, wink, wink -- but the more things change the more they stay the same.

 

[dorispulaski]

Alla is no longer a judge; she is on the technical committee. So just like we used to do can be, just like we used to do, with When I Was a Judge to be understood.

I think it would be naive to think the judges never discuss the skaters' strengths & weaknesses with each other. In fact, I have heard that 2 members of the tech panel were trying to convince a German judge that although Charlie is just slightly better than Scott, Tessa is a lot better than Meryl. So it still goes on, and how would it not?

If the judge can explain to his colleagues his point of view, to convince his skaters' programmes are exactly what the ice dance should be like ,he can influence quite a lot.

It is interesting that Alla thinks Die Fledermaus is exactly what ice dancing should be like, so Z&S are one the same page with her. (She did not comment one way or another as to whether Funny Face is what ice dancing should be like, too, only said she preferred Die Fledermaus.) Last year, Russians preferred V&M's Latin FD to D&W's Tango.

It is also interesting that she regards COP as a stealth attack on Russian ice dance by Canadians. It's an interesting interview.

 

[romanoff81]

Die Fledermaus is too traditional in my book Doris it is more suited for Pairs Skating, there wasn`t really a coreographic theme in D&W`s FD that is what hurt them in the end, now V&M`s wasn`t exactly grounbreaking but there was a theme and it was well exploited, the lifts were perfectly in tuned and went through an evolution. So in the end the result was correct as far as Charlie being better than Scott no way he skates more like a freeskater than an ice dancer.

 

[Mathman]

I think it would be naive to think the judges never discuss the skaters' strengths & weaknesses with each other. In fact, I have heard that 2 members of the tech panel were trying to convince a German judge that although Charlie is just slightly better than Scott, Tessa is a lot better than Meryl.

They got caught doing this? Why weren't the three of them suspended?

 

[Mathman]

These people were just doing PR!

I do not think that PR should have any place in sports officiating. The judges should score what they see in the performance, not what they have been fed by glad-handing hustlers.

Plus, as I understood the report, it was not the skaters' coaches that were doing the PR work, it was two members of the technical panel working on one of the judges. How is it the proper business of the technical panel to try to convince the judges to favor one team over another before the contest begins?

(There you go again, Mathman, you naive Polyanna. )

 

[dorispulaski]

Math, It's legal to talk about the competitors prior to the competition, and after the competition. Otherwise, you'd have to put the judges in a box all year round.

Alla says it is Business As Usual. And it certainly matches my own meager experiences with a judge or two.

If you were to ask me for my input on how to improve the judging system, so that it would appear more fair, it would be this:

The tech panel cannot have any tech specialist or controller from any of the countries whose competitors ranked in the top 10 on the same season's GP in that discipline.

OTOH, the judging panel must have one judge from each of the countries whose teams qualified for the GPF. This still leaves quite a few spots for other countries, and the other countries will be running the tech panel.

The biggest judging problem to me is not the judge panel, and the fact that all the judges try to convince each other of the strengths of their own skaters and the weakness of others. It's the tech panel, which only requires two people to be in collusion to make a big difference in scoring. As for example, the two tech panel people who were out trying to politick a judge.

And romanoff, in the first place Die Fledermaus is a waltz + a polka, not just a waltz. In the second place, I am only commenting on what Alla said, and she knows more about ice dancing than either of us, being a judge, a tech specialist, and a member of the ice dance technical committee and a coach.

However, your position that somehow, DF is pairs skating is a little odd, because it contradicts your opinion that it is too traditional, and is a recognizable waltz & polka. Old tyme ice dance was in no way pairs, and neither are either FF or DF. Both are recognizable dances on ice. And very few pairs routines are recognizable as dances, although there have been a few from time to time.

It may well not be your cup of tea. However, it garnered standing ovations in Russia, Canada, the US, and France, which shows that many people found it a very compelling piece of choreography & performance, a distinction that D&W's last year's Tango did not have.

 

[Mathman]

It's legal to talk about the competitors prior to the competition, and after the competition. Otherwise, you'd have to put the judges in a box all year round.

In other sports, officials are members of the appropriate professional referees (umpires, etc.) association. As a matter of professional pride they do not put themselves in a position where it might seem like any team owner, manager, or player has undue influence on their play-calling. Organizations like major league baseball and the NBA are equally committed to giving the officials unions autonomy from league or front office pressure.

The reason they do this is that they know that once suspicion of the officiating creeps into the mind of the public, that is the death knell for the sport.

This just makes sense. What will it be next, judges placing bets on who is going to win the competition that they are judging? hwell:

 

[Tonichelle]

why are you so shocked at this news, MM? it's not like this is a new outting of state secrets...

 

[Mathman]

^ What shocks me is that no one seems to see anything wrong with it.

It's like when Bart Simpson got in trouble for teasing his sister, and his mother made him apologize. "Lisa, I don't know why I picked on you yesterday. I don't know why i picked on you today. I don't know why I am going to pick on you tomorrow."

 

[romanoff81]

Doris you must Know Alla has underlying motives here its much harder to Politik against the olympic champions than the silver medalists the olympics will be in her home country the russians will be desperate to get a medal in ice dance, even Bobrova`s coach Kustarova critizised Virtue and Moir earlier in the year the rest of the world knows who they have to beat for that olympic gold in 2014, when Virtue and Moir skated their FD last year and got a great reception even though Tessa was still injured you didn`t hear people say Davis and White did not deserve the title they knew they were not competing on an equal footing. Now that Tessa is back healthy it scares there rivals they will need outside influences to make them vulnerable.

 

[Dragonlady]

The reason they do this is that they know that once suspicion of the officiating creeps into the mind of the public, that is the death knell for the sport.

And this suspicion, that it's all "fixed" is the single largest reason why figure skating is declining as a popular sport. And why people don't want their kids to be skaters.

 

[NorthernDancers]

And this suspicion, that it's all "fixed" is the single largest reason why figure skating is declining as a popular sport. And why people don't want their kids to be skaters.

This is the heart of the matter. 100% agree with this. We live in a different world now, and most people have no patience for this nonsense. If this is still happening, skating risks getting thrown out of the Olympics. There must be not only the appearance of impartiality, but it must be true in practice. COP was created so that skating can be treated like the sport it is with quantifiable and qualitative measures. Now the ISU needs to fix the culture at the top, ensuring maximum impartiality and transparency. When credibility is there as a real sport, more people will participate, and the general public audiences will return.

 

[colleen o'neill]

Hi, Isabella.. I'm sure Dragonlady must be right in regard to R/H's programs, as she's very familiar with that school. I am not, but it doesn't make a bit of difference to the point I was making ... which is ,every year there's some African or Black reference in their programs .Summertime is a double dose, as my sister reminds me it's originally from the opera Porgy and Bess . Every year , I looked forward to see what they'd do ,and it may have been different , but always seemed like more of the same. I just think it's limiting, and I was so, so pleased with their tango this year.

There's just been something off in the matter of taste . For example, with Summertime , they performed it as an exhibition with Kharis in the classy-looking cocktail dress and Asher bare chested. There's a true lack of sensitivity to ugly old stereotypes there .

I felt the same kind of heavy-handedness in Paul's silly chest hair dislpay.

 

[Dragonlady]

If what Scott said in a blog were to be taken seriously, then we can infer that before V/M got to be V/M!!!! they must have gone through all sorts of wringers because of all these "backroom deals" that take place. We are just fans. We do not really know that what may shock us, they just take in stride as they try each season to get better to the point that no one can do it to them anymore. The rest of the top 19 Worlds teams behind them must also have their share of the push and shove. What does not shock us, makes us jaded (such a sorry statement about figure skating).

Except that Scott and Tessa never did go through any wringers. The buzz around this team started the moment they set foot on international ice, finishing 7th in the FD at their first Jr. Worlds, under 6.0 and 2nd the following year and debuting in the top 10 at their first senior Worlds. They were the youngest ever World and Olympics ice dance medalists.

 

[slipslidin]

In my recollection, Tessa and Scott were V/M!!! right off the hop. We heard about them early and often. When they stepped up to seniors, they presented themselves as credible competitors. Skate Canada counts them as one of their successes, but they may well have felt like they were being put through wringers.

 

[all that]

This is the heart of the matter. 100% agree with this. We live in a different world now, and most people have no patience for this nonsense. If this is still happening, skating risks getting thrown out of the Olympics. There must be not only the appearance of impartiality, but it must be true in practice. COP was created so that skating can be treated like the sport it is with quantifiable and qualitative measures. Now the ISU needs to fix the culture at the top, ensuring maximum impartiality and transparency. When credibility is there as a real sport, more people will participate, and the general public audiences will return.

Figure Skating will never be thrown out the Olympics. Everyone knows that it draws a big viewership for the Winter Games. It gets primetime coverage in the States.

Ice dance as a discipline appears to have a problem, but it doesn't really. During the Winter Olympics, the media loves to play up ice dance as a reality show. It's full of intrigue, drama, and sparkles. They think, "Who doesn't love that?" Sochi will be particularly interesting, as it will be the EVILLE Russians against the innocent and fresh-faced Davis/White. If there is some tension between V/M and D/W at that time, that will also be a media goldmine.

What to do about declining support in non-Olympic years is a different problem entirely.

V/M have had the full support of their Federation for a long time, and rightfully so, as they are enormous talents. That doesn't mean they weren't put through any wringers. That just means they were well aware of what wringers were out there from a young age, and were advised on how to deal with them in the best and most efficient way. Moving to Shpilband/Zoueva is one of the ways they dealt with the wringers.

 

[slipslidin]

Got you, Colleen. When I think African, I think Africa, the continent. Africans are black (except a lot of South Africans) but not all black people are African. Thanks for clarifying your view of things.

The black thing once again. I've often wished Asher had a T-shirt with the slogan "I'm not white, get over it!" so he could wear it when R/H go for choreography. There are lots of teams in figure skating of mixed racial background, and it seems unimaginative to use the background of one member of the team as a recurring theme.

We've seen Kharis in an Afro, and I hope I never see her in a banana skirt. It seems some of us would like to see them move on.

 

[slipslidin]

On a more serious note, I'd like to bring up the topic of ORDINAL SIN . I've been dismayed that people are saying 'the marks are unfair, but I agree with the placements.' The marks, in this age of enlightenment, are supposed to determine the placement. We should not be willing to accept this spin. The day of ordinals is past, and if the marks are unfair, it is not a true competition.

 

[Dragonlady]

I felt the same kind of heavy-handedness in Paul's silly chest hair dislpay.

It seems to me that you have a real issue with the Scarborough club and you're looking for any sort of flimsy excuse to bash them. All of your rants against this school smack of jealousy and an inability to acknowledge that right now, they have the best ice dancers and the best coaches in Canada. The BC school where the Kraatz's and Wing & Lowe are coaching have yet to produce a successful international team. Ditto D&L in Montreal. The Hasegawa's haven't exactly set the Junior circuit on fire. Yet there are suggestions here that Ralph & Hill should go to either one of these programs over the one where they are.

I thought that the use of African dances for Ralph & Hill was in an effort to set them apart from other teams' folk dances. They were the only team to do something unique like this, unless you count the Russians during the Olympics and their dreadful "aboriginal" dance.

 

[colleen o'neill]

Um..Oh ,The Humanity...

Isabella ..please don't misunderstand me .The (get it ?) in my previous post was not directed at you . It reflects that over the course of 3-4 years, I couldn't help feeling a point was being made , over and over again ( in one way or another ) ,in the choices of R/H 's programs ; as if we're all too thick to notice said point, and must be reminded every time out. I should have realized you're new here....and wouldn't know that I often put things in a teasing , or off-hand manner.

So I won't take your instructive comments on Africa and it's racial make up as being at all condescending . After all, we don't know each other ,and for all you know , I might be that unenlightened . But since your reply seems , to me, to indicate some lingering confusion, let me clarify my view further..

It's difficult to know exactly what terminology to use - African is pretty clear, but in the US , African American is the preferred term ( over black) for people or things that are of African heritage or influence , but originate in the US . In the UK , Black is still commonly used and widely acceptable.. while I am old enough to remember when the use of Negro was the correct and polite terminology. I used " African " as a very general shorthand , in the interest of not being too wordy.. I perhaps shouldn't have assumed I would be understood.

Lest anyone should think that my objection to this perceived repeating theme (up until now ) in R/H's programs stems from any discomfort in beholding a mixed racial couple ,or a distaste for anything with an "African " connotation...I grew up in an environment ( related to the entertainment arts ) where all races were accepted much more broadly than was generally the case, at the time. Though I was very young then , I remember the shock and outrage of the adults around me when Louis Armstrong was turned away from the Vancouver Hotel. I couldn't imagine why such a thing could be.

My own 2 grandchildren ( as adored as any 2 grandchildren can be ) are of mixed racial descent . Part of their heritage traces back to Africa by way of Trinidad.

So I'm aware of racial issues , but I don't think I'm over-sensitive either way.

The stereotype I referred to in regard to the Summertime costume is well-known , and while it's less prevalent in this day and age , is still best avoided , since it's demeaning to men and women of either race. I don't believe it was intentionally raised , but someone should have been a bit more aware. ( Please don't ask me to explain this more fully , if you don't know exactly what I'm talking about. I don't think a skating board is the best place to discuss it in depth , and references to it would not be hard for you to find )

Like slipslidin' , I think that R/H should move on , expand their range, not get boxed in or repetitive ,as they are in grave danger of doing .

Now I feel I may have clarified my view .

On a costuming note relating to slipslidin's post ...I generally dislike the use of wigs, fake moustaches, face paint and props in competitive programs. I think everyone should save those for the exhibition.