All Things Ice Dance: Canadian

[colleen o'neill]

doris, you make an excellent point about Scarboro choreography. Even in programs I've not been fond of overall , there have often been individual lifts, for example , or small sections within the program that were creative and memorable. And then there can be programs like R/H's Tango , where it all comes together, and you wind up with an absolute gem . That program was just perfect for that team's particular talents at that stage of their development...Sweet.

To riff on skatingfan04's post , when a school has a lot of students at the more noticeable levels ( Sr. and Jr.) , any common flaws will be apparent , and they can suddenly find themselves victims of their own success . This has an upside as well as a downside ( the downside being criticism , the upside being an opportunity to step back ,take a look and say ..we seem to have a systemic problem , what can we do to fix it ? )

We now have the Wing and Lowe school coming into the same possible situation. Their emergence into the limelight is still too new to know for sure, but so far, they seem to be avoiding many pitfalls .. However , as they say in the British crime dramas, it's early days , yet.

At Nationals , I noticed that David Islam has a crop of skaters coming up at, I think , novice. In a couple of years , then , we'll see what kind of scrutiny Mariposa comes in for.

It's early days too, for Dubreuil / Lauzon , though their students seem to be sprinkled across all levels ,and it's too early for teams that have been with them more or less from day one to emerge.

Being from the west coast, I don't get much news of what other schools are doing in Quebec, and haven't really noticed one making a splash at Nationals , so far...Quebec sort of fades into a cloud of "much of a sameness" in my awareness, with the odd standout couple. ( I'd love to be educated in this regard.. please post about Quebec , someone. )
E.G... Marieve Cyr and Bejamin Briseboise stood out to me as having a lot of potential , but I don't know much about their coaches , whether they have a lot of students, or what.

Dragonlady..why do you think people are trying to elevate "their favourites" by bashing those placed above them ? It's obvious to me that people are talking about a lot of couples at the same general level , and their favourites became their favourites because they feel they are .. better skaters , or have better coaching , or make better music choices, any number of reasons .. or that those placed above them were very over marked. Most have no personal ties whatever to their favourites , and it's not at all a matter of jealousy.

And most can and do admit that their favourites can make a mistake ,in skating and judgement from time to time.

ETA...I know I have multiple favourites at any one time , for a variety of reasons , and not only in Canada , or from any one school.
Between R/H, O/W and P/I.. I like different things about each team , see potential in all of them , and wait to see who will prevail over the next few years.
as regards G/P ,I have to start from square one again this year ,in my opinion of them , since I feel their last year's result was such an outlier , it doesn't really help me to make an assessment.

 

[nevergonnadance]

I'm not defending shortcomings but I'm a glass half full kind of person. I would rather discuss the postive attributes of the teams from all of the schools, than trying to elevate my favourites by bashing those being placed above them.

First of all, these are competitive athletes. Identifying strengths and weaknesses is as basic as it gets. Second, you are "defending shortcomings" by claiming Scarboro critics can't possibly be perceiving any shortcomings but are trying to elevate their lower ranked favorites. BTW, how can fans elevate their favorites? We're not participants. Third, what is your rationale for critics who are fans of skaters higher ranked than Scarboro's?

 

[dorispulaski]

That is a question, isn't it?

Personally, of the Canadian dancers, I'm a big fan of Weaver & Poje, and I like Virtue & Moir & Ralph & Hill. Of those teams, 2 are higher ranked than the Scarborough teams, and the other ... .... is a Scarborough team.

 

[slipslidin]

For several years now, practically since they got together, Weaver and Poje have been favorites of mine, not only for their skill, and physical beauty, but for their fighting spirit in the face of adversity, and the improvements they have made, consistantly, every year. I have seen them live, and can say that they are even more impressive in person than they are on TV.

Virtue and Moir have been favorites of mine since they turned senior. They gave no quarter, and competed on an adult level, never trying to present themselves as a pair of 'Cute Kids', even though they were. They have also been through some very tough times together. They have my respect and admiration, and I feel they are untouchable in Canada, now, and most likely until they retire.

I have other favorites on the international scene, but this is not the place to discuss them. It is ludicrous to suppose that I could be jealous of a whole school on their behalf, and if I was the type to take everything personally, I might feel insulted by that assumption.

Skate Canada,( and you are free to assume that everything I post is my personal opinion) seems to believe it is best not to promote two couples in the same age group. I say, if they are both good, you have nothing to lose by promoting competition. Virtue and Moir have training mates that I love, on balance, equally. What if they were another Canadian couple?

It looks like Wing and Lowe have a similar situation coming right up in Juniors. Is this an unfortunate thing? Would it be wrong to mention this because they are from the same school?

There are four teams developing on the senior level who should have been marked very closely at Nationals IMO, and I believe that will be the case Internationally. Let's see how it develops!

 

[colleen o'neill]

Canadian Favourites ? (among Srs. and those currently skating ) V/M right from the start...Followed by W/P ( also right from the start , but realizing they had a way to go )...then we hit the log jam .

Going into last year,my next fave was clearly P/I for their lovely line , and sophistication.. as opposed to R/H's posture problems and the other noted criticisms ..and O/W had not made their transition yet , so who knew where they'd fit in ..

But now ? R/H have improved so much in the areas that were a problem for me, they've really risen in my estimation ..P/I had their disaster year, including being sort of off in their program and initial packaging choices ...and while O/W still have room to grow, so far they've had a pretty quick growth curve, and I wouldn't rate them so far behind the other 2 as to not be competitve with them.

Esthetically , I do still prefer P/I..but esthetics is not and can't be the whole story, so this year I'm not sure what order my list of favourites will be in , after V/M and W/P.

Jrs. ?..toss-up between Bruser and Lum , and Edwards and Pang, but those 2 in whatever order.. then we hit the log jam.... I do like Bent and McKeen , Dalmer and Firus ..will the Hasegawas still be Jrs.? because I like them too ..it gets very murky for me at Jrs. , because there can always be troubles with the growth demon , and other variables...but probably that's enough favourites , anyway.

 

[Dragonlady]

I'm also a fan a multiple teams from various schools. I fell in love with Virtue & Moir when they were kids and felt foolish for gushing over children who would likely outgrow one another or break up, but I couldn't help myself. I first saw Andrew Poje as a just-up-from novice kid competing in an NAC event in Kitchener in 2000 or 2001. At Canadians in 2006 a bunch of us were watching the Dance warm-up and Andrew was dragging Alice Graham around the ice. Lovely girl but she was nowhere near his level. One of the group said "If we took up a collection, could we buy Andrew Poje a better partner?" and we all agreed we'd chip in because he was just too good to be stuck with someone who couldn't skate. So you can well imagine how thrilled we are for Weaver & Poje.

There is also pointing out flaws and weaknesses and relentless bashing and what has been posted here in regards to the Scarborough skaters comes across as relentless bashing. Going on and on about costumes from 2008 - that's bashing.

In regards to Paul & Islam, I really hope that going to Detroit will mean they are packaged differently this season. Everything about their packaging screams Virtue & Moirt Lite. Stop straightening Mitch's hair. There are similarities in their skating style which cannot be denied but the hair and the costumes have been almost clone-like. All this does is remind me how much better Virtue & Moir are and I can't help but think this affects their marks. Hopefully, having Camerlengo doing the styling will mean a different look for this team.

 

[Tonichelle]

Per GS Guidelines:

Keep posts constructive
Posts are welcomed and appreciated as long as they are constructive. For example, "So-and-so is a horrible skater!" is not a constructive post. An acceptable post would be "I feel so-and-so could improve their skating if ..." The best way to get your opinion(s) recognized is not to be abusive or offensive, but to be positive and communicate in a mature fashion.

and

8. Respect the opinions of others
Arguments can’t be won. If you have a contrasting opinion, please state it simply and clearly. If necessary, agree to disagree with others who may have differing opinions. When discussions turn into long, hostile arguments, the thread will be closed or removed and instigators will be rewarded with an infraction.

If there is something that you feel strongly enough about that sounds like folks are breaking guidelines or writing something hurtful, report it. Not that I think anyone on the thread has gone against the guidelines, but it might do us good to review guidelines from time to time - we mods need it, too!

 

[Mathman]

Lovely girl but she was nowhere near his level.

I don't know how good she was, but I'll certainly go along with lovely. :yes:

http://www.toeloopy.com/portfolio/photography/galleries/LPIDC/images/080604-3943.jpg

Here is a Golden Skate interview with Graham and Poje from 2004.

http://www.goldenskate.com/2004/09/graham-and-poje-off-to-good-start/

we mods need it, too!

Well, I still say Alice Graham is a lovely girl and anyone who disagrees is a ...

Edited to add Speaking of beautiful Canadian ladies, is Siobhan Karam still competing?

 

[slipslidin]

Rachel Kirkland, anyone?

 

[colleen o'neill]

I think Siobhan Karam coaches, now ???

 

[slipslidin]

Just to be constructively argumentative, I'd prefer not to see Paul and Islam dismissed as 'Virtue and Moir lite'. I've seen this epithet quite often in print. To me they have looked as though packaged by a commitee and in need of a strong central vision. hopefully that will develop.

I've also seen Orford and Williams accused of trying to look like Davis and White. I suppose because of the long, dark hair and blond curls. Quite amusing, in this case, because Meryl and Charlie have swapped hair colours. This kind of thing is not constructive, and gains a life of it's own, if it's repeated often enough. It becomes a sort of memory-aid, the first thing that comes to mind when the names are mentioned.

 

[ice coverage]

Has the new version of Virtue/Moir's official website been mentioned here yet? FSU's discussion of it brought it to my attention yesterday.
Same URL as before, but the content has been drastically transformed.

ETA:
According to discussion on FSU, the "new" site seems to be a work in progress.
Just now, I saw that it had two lovely photos of V/M with Shpilband from Sep 2009 -- which were not there yesterday.
When I looked a moment ago, the site had no photo of V/M with Zoueva. (But for all I know, one might be added imminently.)
I think most or all of the photos online so far are from Myra Klarman's photo shoots, and I do recall that Zoueva happened to be out of town with D/W on the day that Klarman took photos at the rink with V/M and Shpilband.
I guess that we should stay tuned to see whether more photos show up on the site ...
​

And changing the subject, I just started a thread for BC/YT Section Summerskate in the "Summer competitions" forum, and posted a link there to the entry list.

Same dates ( Aug/16-19 ) for BC/ YT again ( Quebec, too ? ), but I couldn't find a list of competitors for BC. I would assume all of W&L 's skaters, plus...???

 

[colleen o'neill]

Why, oh why, does Skate Canada's website really make you work to find anything out ?

..I've just failed completely in my search for any Jr Grand Prix assignments.. are they all ( or in part ) to be influenced by summer competition results ?..That would seem odd as the Jr GP events start quite early..

I was wondering , because I noticed Poulin & Servant are entered in the Jr. dance section in the Quebec summer competition , and I believe he turned 21 at the beginning of this month. I know that by our rules they have to
skate SR. at Nationals , but do the ISU's new age limits not kick in yet , or what ? Will they still be OK for Jr. GP and Worlds ?

Has SC atually made some JR.GP assignments , but have the list locked away in some dusty oubliette , the door to which only opens if you can give the secret sign ?

 

[cleoc]

I think you could disagree with me, but for me its more interesting, if we will see a lot off different teams from different ice dance schools.
Its very good for Canada to have such a big schools, like Scarboro, W-L school in Vancouver, strong ice dance school in Quebec.
I wish to support Scarboro. Lane and Razgulyevs made really good choreo with a lot off connections steps, interesting transitions and elements. I love most of Crone-Porie programs. I was really impressed with Vanessa and Paul FD at WCh in Torino. It looked so easy, interesting, they showed good edges, speed, very difficult transitions. I think they (Lane and Razgulyevs) really have the same ice dance vision with Dean. Like i see most FS fans in North America didnt like Dean choreo, but i found it really great and impressed with his work with music and moves. So in Scarboro coaches really pay attention to the dance transitions and made new elements. They gave there skaters good skating skills. Yes, there skaters have problems with posture and often with outfit. But this is only question of the individual taste. Maybe they need to take off-ice choreograhfer to work with there teams, but i am sure, they will made this.
And not only me was really impressed with R-H at this year WCh. This was one of the best tango i ever saw on ice (and really great outfit ).

For me its really interesting, what coaches could made with P-I in Detroit. I feel sorry for this team, becaseu i like this year FD but they never skated it clean (maybe only at Nationals). But i see a little problem in DSC They have too many teams now and W-P, H-D look the same. I feel sad for Netchaeva-Tschesnitchenko, because they gave such a great basics to S-B and H-H, wich other coaches didnt used So i hope P-I will not look like W-P and H-D next season

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

If Scarborough gets more than it's fair share of criticism, well, I don't think it's unfair to explore why. Is it the best school in Canada? I'd say so. I'd point out that Paul Mcintosh is more of a developmental coach - recalling that he worked with Tessa and Scott before they went to S/Z and Andrew Poje as well; that Wing/Lowe are very new as are Dubreuil/Lauzon. However, I'd point out that for a top school, they haven't attracted international skaters (yet) like Dubreuil/Lauzon have. I'll also point out that they haven't had a junior or novice national champion since Olivera/Hockley (who I rather liked, to be honest), whereas Wing/Lowe have quite a strong stable of those up-and-coming dancers. Finally, I'll mention that while they coach a lot of Canadian teams, the top two Canadian teams don't work with them. So while I'd agree that their presence on the national and international circuit is notable, it's not unimpeachable.


Talking about the rest of the skaters in general, now....

Bruser/Lum: Enjoy them now, because it looks like she'll outgrow him tomorrow. IF she doesn't, and IF he's able to grow a little (particularly bulking up in the upper body), I think they can be stars. She's got a Domina-esque appeal and they've got it in spades. More strength on his part will allow the lifts to be more fluid (particularly in the changes of position), but I like that they express the music in their elements. More strength will hopefully improve his skating skills - too often he seems like he's running to catch-up. They can sell dance - their FD this past season was very well thought out for their abilities. They're still very junior, of course. Very ragged and don't match in terms of line, but just in projection and wattage (and chemistry), I like what I see. Probably my favourite junior team.

Orford/Williams: There's a little bit of "music carrying the team" here. Such a sweeping piece of music, how can you help but be carried along by it? I would like to see him draw the eye more - he sorta fades into the background while she's the star (he's no Clarke Gable. He's barely Leslie Howard). I did notice the speed issue, Dragonlady, after you mentioned it (this issue was clearer at Nationals than on the JGP when they were being compared to the top senior teams in Canada as opposed to the junior squad internationally). I'd love to see them improve their refinement and skating skills, and for him to increase his presence (I hope they go the direction of Anissina/Peizarat as opposed to Davis/White, though).

Paul/Islam: Like you, DL, I thought of this team as V/M-lite. Everything from doing a flamenco OD in the 2009/10 season to their packaging in their senior debut to a similar (if less developed) skill set . But their programs last season, despite the lack of mileage and poor international skates, worked for me. The SD had a rueful sensuality that was emotionally true and perfect for that music choice and their FD was actually quite darker than I would have expected from them. I think the move to Camerlengo will help (particularly with the levels), as well as give them a more individual look. I think what I like most about them is that their dancing is not merely a collection of tricks. I find it telling that the one thing I really like about this team is how much effort they put into coming across as a team. They skate really close together (indeed, wasn't their NHK injury a consequence of that) and seem integral to the other's body movement. She is so emotionally fluid.

Ralph/Hill: The second most improved team from last season. May they continue to grow.

Weaver/Poje: If you have problems with consistency (and W/P did), all those close losses to your main rivals can do a number on your psyche. It doesn't help if your coach starts feeding you stuff about how you were robbed (as Bourne made some noise about in 2010). Then they had that one skate. That free dance at Moscow worlds. Now - I hated the Moulin Rouge FD. I thought it was chintzy and trite; a badly edited piece of choreography. But by Nationals they had improved it enough that it wasn't an eyesore. And then they did something they hadn't done before. They skated a completely clean, high level FD. And then the dam broke. Last season was one triumph after another - beating Bobrova/Soloviev at CoR, leaping ahead of the Shibutanis at the GPF and 4CC, and climaxing in a hard-fought fourth place that in another time (say the season previous) would've been bronze. Pound for pound, they had the best programs of the 2011/2012 season. Krylova, Camerlengo et al have set them up marvelously for this season. They proved that Moscow was no fluke and have placed themselves in a good position for London (and with V/M there, the pressure is shared - something that their training mates didn't have helping them). The one thing I'm concerned about is the hangover effect - after such an unmitigated triumph choreographically, where do they go from here?

Virtue/Moir: Deserves a separate post, frankly.

 

[heyhey]

I agree that Weaver and Poje had a consistent season and were given choreography that played to their strengths. The challenge for them is have they peaked and whether or not they can show versatility. I have to agree with cleoc that Hubbell/Donohue have been packaged similarly to Weaver/Poje and for a team that has only skated together for a year achieved what they needed. I also think that Capellini/Lanotte had a great season last year considering that they recovered from injury.

In terms of Ralph/Hill - I remember interviews with PJ Kwong last summer indicating that the team upped their physical training regimen and in terms of mental strength, Kharis Ralph was also doing better since the year before her dad had unexpectedly passed away. In addition, let's face it - I think the team were given good programs with the breakup of Crone/Poirier.

ETA: The reason that I added Capellini/Lanotte into the convo here is that if they can perform well this year - I think they have potential to be bumped up...

 

[Dragonlady]

Colleen: The JGP assignments are not made until the summer competitions have been done. Skaters who want to be considered for a JGP have to submit a tape for consideration, but summer results are the all-important deciders. There is a big dance competition at Minto, plus Lake Placid, and all of the other big summer comps.

There are some skaters who are no-brainers for a JGP assignment and the early assignments usually go to them - Orford/Williams would be one such team if they are still age eligible, but growth for junior skaters, both physically and technically, can be very sudden and a team which was iffy in the spring, can be a powerhouse by summer, and vice-versa. Skate Canada usually waits until the last possible moment to make these assignments for just this reason.

With respect to birthdays, it's the skater's age as at June 30th in any given year that matters. If the skater turned 21 on or after July 1st, he would be deemed to be 20 in ISU years.

 

[chuckm]

Orford/Williams are no longer eligible for Junior competition. Nicole turned 19 in October, 2011, and Thomas was 21 in April.

Poulin/Servant are still junior-eligible because he turned 21 on July 1st, so is technically still 20 for the 2012-2013 season.

Also age-eligible: Bent/MacKeen, Bruser/Lum, Dalmer/Firus, Edwards/Pang

 

[blancanieves]

For me its really interesting, what coaches could made with P-I in Detroit. I feel sorry for this team, becaseu i like this year FD but they never skated it clean (maybe only at Nationals). But i see a little problem in DSC They have too many teams now and W-P, H-D look the same. I feel sad for Netchaeva-Tschesnitchenko, because they gave such a great basics to S-B and H-H, wich other coaches didnt used So i hope P-I will not look like W-P and H-D next season

I don't think these three teams could look alike even if they wanted to. They have completely different personalities and physical features, and certainly they're at different stages of development in their skating. If you look at the FDs you can see the different mixes of dynamics/strengths/weaknesses in each team.

 

[slipslidin]

I hope that good Canadian teams will continue to go to Krylova/ Camerlengo,et al. They seem to have a top grade coaching team, and superior choreography. I can't help thinking of the old song." How you gonna keep'em down on the farm. after they've seen Paree?"

I'm sure an establishment of that level will avoid turning out clones. They may be in the fortunate position of attracting tall, slim dancers, partly because of Krylova's success.

How flattering for Weaver and Poje, if every tall blond with a dark handsome partner is considered an imitator, but I'm sure that H&D are simply too good to be mistaken for anybody else.