All Things Ice Dance: Canadian

[colleen o'neill]

Dragonlady .. Thanks , that's pretty much what I suspected ,as to JGP assignments...but since the first one is in August , I thought there might be a provisional list for the first 1 or 2, or something .. based on competition at Canadians.

This all became a question because of seeing P/S on the Jr. list for the Quebec summer competition.

So this birthday business is very lucky for them , since it looks like his 21st Birthday was July 1.. ( can't cut it much finer than that ) ..and I'm pleased it will mean more exposure for them. ( O/W are not eligible ..but no probs for them, since they have 2 Sr. GP's )..anyway , thanks for clarifying that.

Moving on to the general discussion, I have to say the " V/M lite " label that was instantly plastered onto P/I when they appeared on the scene has always seemed most unfair to me. If something is repeated enough it can stick , and I don't think it's built on much of a foundation, TBH. Both girls have had extensive ballet training, and the corresponding partners in each couple have similar colouring .. when none of them happen to be dying their hair... That's it , except for one poor choice in costume colour , Alex's ice blue Casablanca costume .. just a bit too close to Tessa's white Mahler dress, which invited comparison.( But the cut and detailing were completely different.)..Just to be clear, I think they've made other poor colour choices , but that's the only one that lent itself to the V/M lite charge.

In fact , P/I have a taller look on the ice . Mitch is definitely taller , she's maybe only an inch or so taller , but she's all long legs, and long graceful arms...just differently proportioned to Tessa , which adds to the impression of height. Together , they don't skate anything like V/M stylistically ( never mind the differential in technique ). Even as they develop , gain power and strength, they may always retain a more ethereal presence on ice. Alex has a special sort of langorous delicacy that's really appealing , and I'd hate to see it trained out of her , or not taken advantage of from time to time. That doesn't mean I don't want them to explore other styles , and I'm greatly anticipating their FD this year.

I've seen comments about Mitch straightening his hair before, and I simply don't get it. If anybody could make themselves look like Scott by straightening their hair , half the ice dance world would be doing it. I just don't believe it for a minute. I guess when he first did it was the year of the Wango..I'd be more inclined to think he did it for that. His slicked back hair ( along with her gorgeous dress ) for that program gave him a much more mature appearance as opposed to their previous Jr. year. Right away, in the SD, they gave a more mature , to-be-taken- seriously vibe than many of their close competitors. ..maybe he thinks he should keep it up , or maybe he just likes it that way. There's nothing so distinctive about Scott's hair ( or Mitch's) that would lead me to conclude Mitch was trying to copy Scott.

ETA; Thanks to you too, chuckm..I was struggling with my post when you were posting.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I actually think that Donohue resembles Poje a lot in terms of face and what not. It's really quite striking.

 

[heyhey]

I hope that good Canadian teams will continue to go to Krylova/ Camerlengo,et al. They seem to have a top grade coaching team, and superior choreography. I can't help thinking of the old song." How you gonna keep'em down on the farm. after they've seen Paree?"

I'm sure an establishment of that level will avoid turning out clones. They may be in the fortunate position of attracting tall, slim dancers, partly because of Krylova's success.

How flattering for Weaver and Poje, if every tall blond with a dark handsome partner is considered an imitator, but I'm sure that H&D are simply too good to be mistaken for anybody else.[/QUOTE

Good points. My concern for Weaver/Poje is that Hubbell/Donohue are a strong team. In addition, let's not totally disregard P/B and their competitiveness. The fact that Nathalie even competed at Worlds is a testiment to itself. I just wanted to state that it will be interesting to see what programs W/P and H/D have next year.

 

[slipslidin]

When it comes to the top ten in the world, I guess we must expect them all to be strong teams. I'm sure they are all so fiercely competitive, it would take your breath away. Well, maybe not so sure about I&K.

By the way, Imaginary, could you pick one of them out of a lineup?

 

[dorispulaski]

(I hope they go the direction of Anissina/Peizarat as opposed to Davis/White, though).

(said of Orford & Williams)

IP, I hope you will explain this comment further, because I find things to admire in both teams, and also things to avoid in both teams.

For example, I would hope that any team I liked would have the work ethic of Davis/White, and that they would set out each year with a list of improvements in their skating that they want to make, and work as hard as they can on those work items, as they do. I would like a team that I liked to look at their skating with a critical eye, as they do.

I would hope they would not go for way too many lifts, and two footed lifts at that, and reverse gender lifts, as did Anissina/Peizerat. I would hope that they would eschew general sloppiness in their CD's, a weakness of both teams. I would hope that they would not skate to a program with MLK making a speech (or anyone else making a speech).

I would hope they would produce exciting programs, which bring the crowd to their feet, as did both teams. I would hope they would work at having authenticity in their OD/SD's as D&W did with Bollywood, and as A&P did with Flamenco.

So what do you wish Orford/Williams to do (or not do), exactly?

Pick Zazoui as a coach rather than Zoueva?

 

[colleen o'neill]

May I stick my oar in ? 'Pogue I'm curious to see your response, too..I've been trying to guess your meaning.

I'm hoping they'll not try to be like anyone in terms of style, but that's maybe not what you meant. I sort of agreed with your comment about there being perhaps a bit too much sweep in their FD,for now..whether that would always be true depends on their development.. but they're such different body types from either D/W or A/P, if I tried to imagine them doing the programs of either, or something very similar ... well, it just doesn't work for me.

I'll have to crash now...finally cool enough in my abode to get some sleep.

 

[slipslidin]

Perhaps Pogue sees a similarity to Anissina and Peizarat in the fact that both teams found success as soon as they got together? Otherwise. I see no physical similarity, and suspect A/P's style would not go over well, these days. I'm glad Pogue is not claiming that they're trying to look like Davis and White. It's an interesting sidelight that Wing and Lowe went to both Zazoui and Zoueva.

For myself, I like both the teams mentioned, both small, and fast, skillful skaters, and great fun to watch.

Orford and Williams are just stepping up to their first senior year, They have made tremendous strides in a very short time, and seem to me to have a distinctive look of their own. i expect to see continued improvement and good results.

 

[cleoc]

Perhaps Pogue sees a similarity to Anissina and Peizarat in the fact that both teams found success as soon as they got together? Otherwise. I see no physical similarity, and suspect A/P's style would not go over well, these days. I'm glad Pogue is not claiming that they're trying to look like Davis and White. It's an interesting sidelight that Wing and Lowe went to both Zazoui and Zoueva.

For myself, I like both the teams mentioned, both small, and fast, skillful skaters, and great fun to watch.

Orford and Williams are just stepping up to their first senior year, They have made tremendous strides in a very short time, and seem to me to have a distinctive look of their own. i expect to see continued improvement and good results.

I dont want all team will go to Zoueva and will look the same.
Every (even best of the best) coach and choreograhfer has there own style and when they had a lot off skaters we will see too much teams, who look similar.
P-B are very mature skaters and i think its very good thing they use out-side choreo and didnt look, like other ice dance teams.
I dont think Camerlengo is a God and all his programs look good. Look at team from Australia for example. And i dont like W-P 2010-2011 FD and this year SD. H-D FD impressed me on TV, but at WCh i didnt like it. I prefer Lane-Razgulyevs teams programs, because they show innovative elements and transitions, when K-C teams show programs in more classic style without "wow" factor. But now technic is much more important so top teams show stadart programs, wich let them to skate fast and clean.
I am sure Orford and Williams could show something unique and they dont need to copy team, like D-W.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

re: O/W and my hoped for career path.

Firstly, lets point out that a comparison to either A/P or D/W would not go in O/W's favour. There's no reason for it to at this point. However, a comparison to D/W would be more harmful as D/W will be at best, a recent memory for the judges when O/W. At worst, direct competitors (say in a GP event). We've already mentioned how much calling P/I "V/M-lite" has hindered perceptions of P/I. I think that the same thing would happen to O/W should they attempt to go in the direction of D/W. Going further back is less harmful as the memories hold less sway.

More specifically, I'd like to see Thomas improve his presence a great deal. Gwendal was able to do this quite successfully over the course of A/P's career such that your eyes went to both of them equally. For Charlie, this is still a work in progress. You see signs of improvement - the Latin SD presents actual pizzazz from him - but mostly my eyes are on her. If the choice is between teams with a strong male/weak female and a weak male/strong female, I'll chose the former nine times out of ten. I hope that his performance quality is something that his coaching team specifically works on.

Additionally, with the exception of the reverse lift, I like A/P's lift positions. Of course, there are less rules hindering those movements, but A/P were able to hit some beautiful positions in their lifts. I don't think D/W specifically work on lift aesthetics until after the Olympic season - you see so many poor positions in their lifts, even in their strong programs (the combination lifts in S&D, POTO, the rotational lift in the latter). Now, with Die Fliedermaus and Il Postino, that's becoming a memory, but it's something I'd like O/W to maintain at the forefront of their training. COP might work against that, though.

A/P have D/W beat in terms of interpretive passion. If O/W do continue to use the big sweeping epics, they need that.

I would have no problem with them skating to a speech if the aural cadences of the words could make music - I think a Coriolanus program with Shakespeare words interspersed with the score would be fascinating for someone like Patrick Chan, for example.

If they can do reverse lifts like Hurtado/Diaz or even like the Kerrs did at the Olympics, I see no reason for them not to include them.

I'd like to see them have the work ethic to succeed, but that's certainly not a trait copyrighted by D/W. I'd argue most of the top teams have a strong work ethic, and I'd argue that it's just as true for A/P as it is for D/W.

As for Zoueva vs Zazoui, well, I'd rather they just stayed with Wing/Lowe.

 

[slipslidin]

We'll soon see how Wing and Lowe's choreography stands up in the big world of senior competition. I have high hopes for them, and great admiration for their demonstrated coaching ability. However, I did feel that, last season, two of their top junior teams had rather ponderous programs that were just too big and heavy for them.

Many good coaches have thought it wise to get outside choreography, but for now, I'll hold a watching brief.

ETA: After long and careful consideration, I can't find a point of departure suitable for comparing O&W with A&P or D&W. And, truthfully I don't find a fruitful comparison between A&P and D&W.

 

[colleen o'neill]

cleoc..Gee, I don't really think it's right to use O'Brien and Merriman as examples ... but maybe it would be if you were making a reverse argument.

O'B /M have been around for a few years..and though I always liked their pluck and cheerful attitude ( and admired the approach they took to their aboriginal program )..they were pretty much spinning their wheels .. But as a result of the very short time they've been at DSC , they made a vast improvement last year , in technique , choreography..the works .. which has to be credited to that school. ( I think they'd only been at DSC since the summer ) I don't know that they will ever become a world podium threat , but they are now firmly on the road to becoming the best that they can be.

I truly can't agree with your assessments re: choreography , but you do cite your preferences , and there's no getting around that. Mine are different. For example, I greatly preferred the programs P/B had in 2011 to any others in their entire career. So while I applaud their achievements this year , for me , they took a step back artistically.

When the top teams skate fast and clean , often it's because they can skate their choreography fast and clean , not that their choreography is "standard" or simplistic.

'Pogue...Ah , claro , claro..

For O/W ,I agree with the improvements you idenitify that Thomas needs to make. Viewing him with my old dance teacher's eye , I definitely thought I could see movement in the right direction this last year over the previous one, so I have high hopes that this will continue ( and I do mean hopes , I don't assume that it's a given ).

I'm equally curious as to the development of W&L as choreographers. I know you're a film buff .. ( me too ,but maybe in a less focused or studied way ). So , if they were Cronenberg , can they make the transition from The Fly to something like Eastern Promises ? ... I don't know why that example sprang to mind..Canadian content ? ( and why did my mind take that turn ? I probably stuck my neck out and put both feet in my mouth at the same time )

I don't mind reverse lifts here and there , I just don't like it when they become a calling card as they did with A/P.
( EG , I'm glad V/M moved The Goose into just show or exhibition numbers. It's great, and I know audiences have wanted to see it, but it would be too repetitive if they continued to incorporate it into every FD.)

I'm trying not to wander here..too many distractions..I'll have to come back.

 

[Dragonlady]

I truly can't agree with your assessments re: choreography , but you do cite your preferences , and there's no getting around that. Mine are different. For example, I greatly preferred the programs P/B had in 2011 to any others in their entire career. So while I applaud their achievements this year , for me , they took a step back artistically.

Colleen: the sentence I have bolded is the reason you and I will never see eye to eye on ice-dance. I loathed that program, to the point that every time I hear Requiem For a Dream, my teeth grind. I could bore you with all of the reasons why I feel this way, but since you like the program, all I will say is that I saw it live at Skate Canada and the program seemed to go on forever. I, on the other hand, just wanted it to end.

 

[slipslidin]

Of the second tier of Canadian teams, I have no reason to suppose that Ralph and Hill, Orford and Williams, and Gilles and Poirier will not continue on their upward trajectories. Paul and Islam are pretty much where they were two years ago. They need to catch up as well as advance. However they have had the advantage of superior coaching and choreography, this summer. I expect this to be an exciting year for all of them.

And, now for the disclaimer; this, like all my posts, is my own opinion.

 

[Ioana]

I believe Colleen was referring to the Chaplin FD... P/B skated to "Requiem for a Dream" in the Olympic season and then switched back to their Circus FD for 2010 Worlds. But I agree that the clocks/Requiem thing didn't work. It was quite bad at TEB that year too...

 

[slipslidin]

Hmm..Colleen and Dragonlady can't even see eye to eye on the year, let alone choreography.

 

[colleen o'neill]

We may not agree on the year ( or many other things ) at any one time ... but as per the Clock / Requiem program, Dragonlady and me are right in tune with our loathing.....

Yes , I meant the Zhivago / Chaplin year.( As my favourite set of programs for them.) I liked their SD this year( in spite of one lift ), just not as much as Zhivago... but didn't like this year's FD ( in spite of some nice positions ).

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

http://www.skatecanada.ca/en-us/development/highperformance/internationalassignments.aspx#jrgp

 

[colleen o'neill]

AH, thanks, pogue.

 

[ice coverage]

A bit of off-season diversion:

I just stumbled upon this video of V/M at a Skate Canada awards banquet http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=QNPCEiQiGoQ.

Although it was posted on YouTube only last week, the video seems to be from a 2010 event. Please forgive me if it was widely viewed elsewhere at the time. I had never seen it until today.
The audio and video quality leave a lot to be desired, but the sweetness of V/M's personalities comes across clearly.
(Plus they both are great eye candy ... and Tessa's dress is gorgeous.)

 

[dorispulaski]

http://ice-dance.com/news/general-a...75-so-you-think-you-can-judge-at-scarboro-fsc

There will be a show given by Scarboro FSC Tuesday, July 31, from 7-9pm at the Thornhill Community Center in Thornhill, Ontario., featuring Ralph & Hill and Gilles & Poirier and the rest of the Scarboro dancers. Bent & McKeen will also be performing.

The name of the event is "So You Think You Can Judge". Both exhibitions and Free Dances will be on display, and according to the press release, the audience will get some form of opportunity to give feedback to every team.

Alexe Gilles will be a special guest, and the only singles skater in the event, as far as I can see.

I hope someone will go and make a report!