Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

[fridakalo]

"If members of this technical panel and judging panel were not bribed/threatened to create the result they did, then the only explanation can be that they are incompetent at their jobs."

At the beginning of the letter you say that other experts agree with you on the fact the level calls were wrong…
Two other ISU-certified technical specialists have reviewed the work I did in examining the technical calls made for Adelina Sotnikova and Yu-Na Kim and they both agreed with my findings.

To summarize, what was (is) the purpose of the letter? Actually, after having it sent to the ISU, you tried to popularize it among other people in the figure skating world…
The purpose of the letter was to inform others in the skating community about just how poorly the competition was called by the technical panel (and how poorly it was judged). Many skating experts had a natural reaction that the result was wrong, but there hasn’t been enough actual analysis done. In the days following the competition, there was a feeling of “resigning” the argument because of talk about how Sotnikova played the judging system better than Yu-Na Kim and deserved to win more points because of the rules we have in place (that does NOT mean that the rules are good, of course). However, this is not correct at all. Even based upon the current rules in place, Sotnikova did not deserve to win the competition. The actual elements were called incorrectly by the technical panel and the judges’ GOE and PCS scores were completely out of place in many instances.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

At the beginning of the letter you say that other experts agree with you on the fact the level calls were wrong…
Two other ISU-certified technical specialists have reviewed the work I did in examining the technical calls made for Adelina Sotnikova and Yu-Na Kim and they both agreed with my findings.

To summarize, what was (is) the purpose of the letter? Actually, after having it sent to the ISU, you tried to popularize it among other people in the figure skating world…
The purpose of the letter was to inform others in the skating community about just how poorly the competition was called by the technical panel (and how poorly it was judged). Many skating experts had a natural reaction that the result was wrong, but there hasn’t been enough actual analysis done. In the days following the competition, there was a feeling of “resigning” the argument because of talk about how Sotnikova played the judging system better than Yu-Na Kim and deserved to win more points because of the rules we have in place (that does NOT mean that the rules are good, of course). However, this is not correct at all. Even based upon the current rules in place, Sotnikova did not deserve to win the competition. The actual elements were called incorrectly by the technical panel and the judges’ GOE and PCS scores were completely out of place in many instances.

I did find it odd that someone so critical of how the event was judged has not himself judged an event. To suggest an entire panel is incompetent, and that there would be insufficiently trained judges and tech panel members at the biggest event is simply silly. Are the technical calls always going to be right? Of course not. There isn't enough time to properly analyze the technical elements and have the competition move along. However, the GOE and PCS marks, while based on set criteria, are subjective. If you disagree with the marks given to Adelina by virtually every judge maybe you need to figure out what they are seeing that you aren't.

 

[Ven]

I did find it odd that someone so critical of how the event was judged has not himself judged an event.

So you're saying it takes a thief to know a thief? Are you better qualified to spot fraud than the rest of us?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

So you're saying it takes a thief to know a thief? Are you better qualified to spot fraud than the rest of us?

Are you saying someone who has attended one seminar is more competent than Vanessa Gusmeroli?

 

[Ven]

Are you saying someone who has attended one seminar is more competent than Vanessa Gusmeroli?

You didn't answer the question and tried to re-direct back to your erroneous premise.

Again, I ask...are you saying it takes a thief to know a thief? And are you better qualified to spot fraud than the rest of us?

 

[fridakalo]

Are you saying someone who has attended one seminar is more competent than Vanessa Gusmeroli?

Why you say only about Vanessa Gusmeroli? she is only one of 3 technical panels. except her Olga Varanova who was soviet figure skater now is Technical assistant from Finland, and Russian Alexander Lakernick

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Why you say only about Vanessa Gusmeroli? she is only one of 3 technical panels. except her Olga Varanova who was soviet figure skater now is Technical assistant from Finland, and Russian Alexander Lakernick

Of the three who is making the calls?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

So you're saying it takes a thief to know a thief? Are you better qualified to spot fraud than the rest of us?

I am not more qualified, but I'm not desperate to call fraud when there isn't much evidence there. If the premise is that every judges' scores were wrong for Adelina so there must be an organized fraud, my response is that the judges universally liked her program. I cannot understand why a Canadian judge, a Japanese judge, an Italian judge, a French judge or a German judge would score Adelina high aside from the fact they really liked her program. The argument that "they are all crooks" is not something I buy.

 

[Ven]

I am not more qualified, but I'm not desperate to call fraud when there isn't much evidence there. If the premise is that every judges' scores were wrong for Adelina so there must be an organized fraud, my response is that the judges universally liked her program. I cannot understand why a Canadian judge, a Japanese judge, an Italian judge, a French judge or a German judge would score Adelina high aside from the fact they really liked her program. The argument that "they are all crooks" is not something I buy.

Adelina's program should have been liked. She skated well and deserved to be on the podium. It should be no surprise that she received good scores. However, the excessive nature of her scores is the question, and that can be affected by a small number of the panel willfully collaborating to commit fraud. The fraud can also be facilitated by a crooked tech panel who systematically made incorrect calls (possibly) for the purpose of helping to fix the results.

 

[Mathman]

Is relying on the tech panel or gkelly's analysis any less credible than relying on BoP's analysis?

The tech panel has not made public any analysis or explanation of their calls, so we have nothing to go on there. Maybe they are right, maybe they are scoundrels. Personally, I trust any analysis offered by gkelly 100%. gkelly is the definition and model of objectivity. :yes: I trust analyses by Blades of Passion about 90%. He is good, but emotional -- rather, I should say, passionate. (He is not, however, a Yuna fan. )

The main thing I am getting out of all of this is that even on the elements side, the IJS is not as cut and dried as its advocates suppose.

 

[Meoima]

I am not more qualified, but I'm not desperate to call fraud when there isn't much evidence there. If the premise is that every judges' scores were wrong for Adelina so there must be an organized fraud, my response is that the judges universally liked her program. I cannot understand why a Canadian judge, a Japanese judge, an Italian judge, a French judge or a German judge would score Adelina high aside from the fact they really liked her program. The argument that "they are all crooks" is not something I buy.

This also budge me a lot. Like I can get it that the Russian and Ukraine's judges gave Sonitkova unreasonable high scores. To let these 2 be included in the judge panel was dubious already. But what about other judges? They were threaten or something? Or they simply liked Sonitkova's fs better? I don't understand why and how.

 

[mskater93]

Since BoP is the only one of us (at least as far as I'm aware -though there may be others lurking) who has actually been trained by the ISU, I think it is fair to agree with his assertion.

I have stood by BoP on this - while my coach was NOT trained by the ISU, she HAS been trained by USFS and she also agrees with BoP's interpretation of the step sequence rules.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

However, the excessive nature of her scores is the question, and that can be affected by a small number of the panel willfully collaborating to commit fraud.

I would agree with you if, by looking at the score sheets, I noticed that a few judges were especially high for Adelina. However, a lot of judges scored Adelina high and all of them gave her many +2 and +3 scores. I look at Yuna's sheet and I see a lot of +1 from all of the judges. Aside from the judge who lowballed Yuna, the rest of the scores looks pretty similar. Adelina's also look to be in a somewhat close range as well; I don't see a lot of difference in between a particular score and the next highest/lowest score.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

The main thing I am getting out of all of this is that even on the elements side, the IJS is not as cut and dried as its advocates suppose.

Let me say that I'm biased because I hate the footwork now. But really, if this much uncertainty can arise out of an element that is only measured on four levels the ISU needs to rethink how skaters perform footwork. I much preferred the fast and intricate steps that were the trademark of Kurt and Yuka.

 

[Vanshilar]

As requested, I have written down all of the movements in Yu-Na Kim's LP footwork sequence:

I'm looking at the sequence now and I have some questions about it. I'm not going to get into the steps here, since I'm still reading up on those, but I've read up on the turns and hopefully I can identify them with some consistency now:

9.) Bracket, clockwise
10.) Rocker, clockwise <--- Should this be a counter?
11.) Cross Roll, counterclockwise

The animated gif for these moves, played at 1/5 of actual speed, is here:

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7167/13314564415_bd30b7a354_o.gif

Standard abbreviations below (R = right foot, L = left foot, B = moving backwards, F = moving forwards, I = skating on inside edge, O = skating on outside edge).

It looks like Yuna does a RBI-RFI rocker, then a RFI-RBO bracket, and then an RBO-RFO move, after which she faces away from the camera. Because she starts the move RBO, the circle she's tracing is to her right. She then turns clockwise, which implies that the point on the tracing is outside of the circle, and thus it should be a counter rather than a rocker.

25.) Rocker, counterclockwise
26.) Edge change from inside to outside <--- Didn't see this, seems like Yuna stays on the inside edge
27.) Three turn, counterclockwise <--- Should this be a counter?
28.) Brief back inside two foot glide with back free foot mini-kick

The animated gif for these moves is here:

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3742/13314958735_8b628cb5ea_o.gif

It looks like Yuna does a LBI-LFI rocker, then a LFI-LBI counter, without changing the edge in between. Granted the video angle isn't good, since it's of Yuna side-on so it's hard to tell which way she's leaning (i.e. whether or not the edge changes). However, this is magnification of a fan cam's view:

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7037/13315595084_1d6ca4c526_o.gif

Yes, it's small and blurry, because the fan cam is of the entire rink and not zoomed in to Yuna and I'm magnifying it by a lot. But from this angle, it seems like Yuna's left foot always stays to the left of her hip (i.e. roughly her center of mass) between the rocker and the subsequent move (where she switches from facing the fan cam to facing away from the fan cam), so she would be continually maintaining a left inside edge -- hence a counter rather than a 3-turn. She is fairly upright here though.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I did find it odd that someone so critical of how the event was judged has not himself judged an event.

Extremely poor logic. Most skating experts have never been an appointed judge at an ISU event. How does an ISU appointment suddenly make a person more knowledgeable or objective?

Let me say that I'm biased.

Most accurate thing you've said so far.

----------

Thanks for your questions, Vanshilar. You're correct about listed movement #10 in Yu-Na's step sequence, it is a counter.

For #26/#27, she does pretty clearly leave the inside edge before doing the turn. Probably tricky to see if you haven't done these kinds of movements yourself, but try to spot how the edge flattens out and starts changing direction before the turn. There isn't counter-rotation happening there.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Extremely poor logic. Most skating experts have never been an appointed judge at an ISU event. How does an ISU appointment suddenly make a person more knowledgeable or objective?

If I'm forced to side with someone who has taken a seminar or side with someone who has been appointed by her federation, (presumably) received appropriate training, and has been a world medalist, I'm probably going to go with the latter. It's hard for me to sit here and question Gusmeroli's experience or expertise, although I'm sure you think you'd be a more capable Tech Specialist.

 

[Blades of Passion]

How about you stop looking at the superficial and instead look at the facts?

If I'm forced to side with someone who has taken a seminar or side with someone who has (presumably) received appropriate training.

The technical specialist seminar is the only training that is given.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

How about you stop looking at the superficial and instead look at the facts.

Everything I cite is related to the protocols. I didn't make them up. You guys are just trying to desperately create a narrative that isn't supported by the numbers. You ask why Yuna gets lower GOE on the jumps and I find that is because a long preparation calls for a -1 to -2 deduction, regardless of whether she got 6 or even 8 of the +GOE features. You guys argue two judges changed the outcome and I point to the protocols to show that the vast majority of the judges scored Adelina high. If you want to throw the protocols out the window because a Finnish assistant tech controller has a last name that ends in "ova" then we don't have much to base any discussion on, but if you're suggesting I'm "superficial" and not looking "at the facts" I'd say objectively it's the other way around.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

The technical specialist seminar is the only training that is given.

Very clever to remove the part about being picked by the federation and being a world medalist. Typical BoP manipulation.