Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

[pangtongfan]

The judges took risks by giving Adelina the gold

That wasnt a risk. It probably would have been a risk to their lives to not have done so as agreed upon. We all know what Putin is capable of, as Ukraine, gay people, and others are all rapidly finding out.

 

[Meoima]

That wasnt a risk. It probably would have been a risk to their lives to not have done so as agreed upon. We all know what Putin is capable of, as Ukraine, gay people, and others are all rapidly finding out.

Well, I don't think Putin actually cared that much about female figure skating. His new wife is also an OGM, a gymnast. I don't think he's a fan of figure skating at all.

If anything, it's just the Russian Fed.

 

[pangtongfan]

Well, I don't think Putin actually cared that much about female figure skating. His new wife is also an OGM, a gymnast. I don't think he's a fan of figure skating at all.

If anything, it's just the Russian Fed.

Oh Putin cared. He showed up for every figure skating event except the dance (wonder why, that was the one event he couldnt buy a Russian win for). He didnt do that for most sports.

 

[chalk5]

I'm sorry but this whole thread is dumb. If you really think that Sotnikova had better footwork, choreography, skating skills, jumping techniques than Yuna, then you are either 1) not very smart 2) new to figure skating. Why are we even discussing this. I know for sure Sotnikova's choreography for Yuna will be too easy and cheesy, while Sotnikova won't even be able make it through half of the program without falling and catching up with the music. Common sense people.

 

[Meoima]

I'm sorry but this whole thread is dumb. If you really think that Sotnikova had better footwork, choreography, skating skills, jumping techniques than Yuna, then you are either 1) not very smart 2) new to figure skating. Why are we even discussing this. I know for sure Sotnikova's choreography for Yuna will be too easy and cheesy, while Sotnikova won't even be able make it through half of the program without falling and catching up with the music. Common sense people.

your post is the epitome of why Yuna's fan drove people away.

First, good performance doesn't have to go along with insane footwork. Even a so so choreography is enough if the skater perform the skate of his/her life. Look at Machida's SP performance at Worlds. His SP choreography itself is a good one, but not a masterpiece like one in the thousand. It's Machida's self-belief that makes the performance shine. So, at this level, it's not just the choreography anymore, it's how you execute it. I don't like Adelina's style, too tacky for me, but there is something people can't deny, she did skate her heart out that night and people can sense that intensity and raw energy from her. And I have to give her credit for that.

Second, it's subjective and the matter of taste whether people find a performance better than which one. You can't dismiss other taste just because your taste said so.

It's obvious that Yuna is on another level and Adelina is not a complete skater. But even the queen had her day off and an incomplete skater had her day on. It's normal, and it's sport.

Personally I disagree with the score for Adelina, her PCS, her GOE were unreasonable high. Her average GOE reward is even higher than Hanyu, the best jumper in the men field, on the day he's clean. I did calculate and I do think her score was unreasonable. But do I feel much from Adelina's performance that day? Yes. She is nowhere near elegant or refined, but who say you have to be elegant and refined to make people admit you skate your best?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

2) new to figure skating. Why are we even discussing this. I know for sure Sotnikova's choreography for Yuna will be too easy and cheesy

Well he/she did say "I know for sure"!! Can't argue with facts like that.

 

[qwertyskates]

Yes, Yuna's Adios Nonino was FLAT as day old beer. My own favorite version is Jeff Buttle's, he hit EVERY NUANCE of that gorgeous piece, especially his step sequence and final spin, there was so much to see, so much choreography, so many details.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Piw7wL-RlF0

 

[Meoima]

Yes, Yuna's Adios Nonino was FLAT as day old beer. My own favorite version is Jeff Buttle's, he hit EVERY NUANCE of that gorgeous piece, especially his step sequence and final spin, there was so much to see, so much choreography, so many details.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Piw7wL-RlF0

You know, I think it's the harm of sticking only to David Wilson. Yuna's programs are always classy, graceful and beautiful but always look the same to me. I don't know but I would rather watch ladies do something more creative. David Wilson's problem is that, once he gets to know the certain skater, he often creates the same program for her/him over and over again. It might suit the skater style, but you shouldn't stay with the same type of success for too long. This I blame David Wilson (I also blame him for PChan, Hanyu and Javi's LP this season). Yuna is not at fault, she did not choreographed this program herself. I hope David Wilson will challenge himself more, recently his works are always miss. I hope to see other HITs from him.

Anyways, Jeff Buttle is a man, you can't compare him to Yuna. But yeah, masculine move is one of the many reasons I love watching men than ladies. And frankly, sometimes I feel uncomfortable looking at the ladies's behind because their costumes are too much reveal. Oh, Then I think of Shizukawa...:scratch:

 

[sk8in]

your post is the epitome of why Yuna's fan drove people away.

Second, it's subjective and the matter of taste whether people find a performance better than which one. You can't dismiss other taste just because your taste said so.

Actually it isn't. The premise of this thread is counting the steps each skater used.

 

[Meoima]

Actually it isn't. The premise of this thread is counting the steps each skater used.

And it's not the thread about "I know for sure I am right and you are stupid." either

Lol, sorry for being off topic then. they move the other thread else where I couldn't find it so I have to comment here.

In the end, it's all coming down to who the judges favour more, isn't it? It has always been that way ever since 6.0 Oksana Baiul won over Nancy Kerrigan with a tedious costume and less technical loaded long program simply because the judges favoured her artistry in the short. It's just 20 years ago and I still remember it.

Set the math aside, it's easy to say that the judges favoured Adelina's energetic and sporty style so they gave her the gold. And the weird scores for her are just the way they want to say they like her performance that night more than anyone else. I disagree with them, though.

When som one say, they know for sure A is B and any people who disagree are stupid, what do you expect normal people to think of him and value his opinion? I am on here long enough for people to know I am not a fan of female skaters so whoever won I don't really feel annoyed that much. I only give my 2 cents of thoughts about the event and people say because I disagree with their idol being the 1st and all, then I am stupid.

Can't argue with facts like "I know for sure I am right and you are stupid."

 

[pangtongfan]

I'm sorry but this whole thread is dumb. If you really think that Sotnikova had better footwork, choreography, skating skills, jumping techniques than Yuna, then you are either 1) not very smart 2) new to figure skating. Why are we even discussing this. I know for sure Sotnikova's choreography for Yuna will be too easy and cheesy, while Sotnikova won't even be able make it through half of the program without falling and catching up with the music. Common sense people.

pretty much hit the nail on the head.

 

[qwertyskates]

You know, I think it's the harm of sticking only to David Wilson. Yuna's programs are always classy, graceful and beautiful but always look the same to me. I don't know but I would rather watch ladies do something more creative. David Wilson's problem is that, once he gets to know the certain skater, he often creates the same program for her/him over and over again. It might suit the skater style, but you shouldn't stay with the same type of success for too long. This I blame David Wilson (I also blame him for PChan, Hanyu and Javi's LP this season). Yuna is not at fault, she did not choreographed this program herself. I hope David Wilson will challenge himself more, recently his works are always miss. I hope to see other HITs from him.

Anyways, Jeff Buttle is a man, you can't compare him to Yuna. But yeah, masculine move is one of the many reasons I love watching men than ladies. And frankly, sometimes I feel uncomfortable looking at the ladies's behind because their costumes are too much reveal. Oh, Then I think of Shizukawa...:scratch:

I did opine that about the choreography before Sochi, after watching her Zagreb performance. I thought it was weak choreography that made it SO FLAT. Yes, Buttle is a man and his strength cannot be compared, but just look at the expressiveness of the step sequence and the perfect pitch of his steps and his spins timed to the music for maximum effect at the end, nothing remotely flat about that mesmerizing performance. So those who claim that we "don't know the music" should just take a good look at Buttle's interpretation. These same moves and steps could have been delivered by Yuna, and I think she would have deserved a better result even with the same technical layout. Her stsq would at least be a 4, Buttle's here is a real beauty.

Her fans insist that Adios cannot be performed with strong expressions, power or lots of details, that it should be languid and slow, with lots of coy poses....ugh...but the piece is full of musical nuances, it really takes a great like Buttle or a Chan to express them. I agree with you that Tuk's and Lu's were better too, but Buttle's the best at skating to the piece with sheer brilliance, imho.

 

[Ophelia]

In the end, it's all coming down to who the judges favour more, isn't it? It has always been that way ever since 6.0 Oksana Baiul won over Nancy Kerrigan with a tedious costume and less technical loaded long program simply because the judges favoured her artistry in the short. It's just 20 years ago and I still remember it.

Set the math aside, it's easy to say that the judges favoured Adelina's energetic and sporty style so they gave her the gold. And the weird scores for her are just the way they want to say they like her performance that night more than anyone else. I disagree with them, though.

Eh, the judges just "happened" to favor Russians that day. They also really, really "liked" Lipniskaia's sad and forlorn style.

I agree that Adios seemed rather muted to me and I thought the music cut was incoherent. Wilson's programmes this year have all be blergh. However, some part of me wonders if Adios is one of those pieces that grow on you after repeated viewing as opposed to one of those warhorse pieces that sucks you in right away.

 

[Meoima]

Eh, the judges just "happened" to favor Russians that day. They also really, really "liked" Lipniskaia's sad and forlorn style.
I agree that Adios seemed rather muted to me and I thought the music cut was incoherent. Wilson's programmes this year have all be blergh. However, some part of me wonders if Adios is one of those pieces that grow on you after repeated viewing as opposed to one of those warhorse pieces that sucks you in right away.

I have google Yuna's long program for some reviews and the review is kind of various. Some people said they like it. Some said it was boring and weak. Whether people like the program or not, it depends on people taste. Personally I think if her long program this season is truly great as her fans claim, then the overall impression of the majority (who are not her fans, not hatters) should be: "wow, wonderful, memorable..." But it's not. Some like it, some don't. Overall I think it's a good program, but not a hit like we always expect from a big name. And I think it's David Wilson's fault. Thanks to him, all the big names this season have all the lackluster programs.

As for the judging at Sochi, it's so obvious the score was rigged. But my thought is, even if ISU agree to show us who give which scores, the judges can always use the reason that they simply favored Adelina's energetic program. The tech panel can always say that, oh, we are sorry, we made some mistake at the step sequence, we forgot a call on Adeline's wrong edge, but even with those mistakes, her score is still higher. About the drastic raise of PCS, they can always reply: "she has improved a lot, we see that with out bare eyes." End of story.

Unless the judges admit they rigged the scores, like what happened in Salt Lake City, or there is any documents, emails, video tape, records show that they were planning to cheat from the beginning, otherwise we can do nothing to prove.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

However, some part of me wonders if Adios is one of those pieces that grow on you after repeated viewing as opposed to one of those warhorse pieces that sucks you in right away.

That may be the case. The problem is that she didn't present the program often enough this season to allow it to grow on the judging panel. She needed something with a "wow" factor.

 

[Procrastinator]

That may be the case. The problem is that she didn't present the program often enough this season to allow it to grow on the judging panel. She needed something with a "wow" factor.

I think this is exactly what happened. Adelina's two skates were very impressive at that moment in time (yet don't hold up when you scrutinize them with hindsight bias) while Yuna was underwhelming at the time though after repeated viewing her talent becomes much clearer. Either way, Adelina was, superficially at least, much crisper than Yuna in almost every sense. Compare Adios to even Les Mis last year; Yuna had gotten much less crisp, esp. in her jumps.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I'm sorry but this whole thread is dumb. If you really think that Sotnikova had better footwork, choreography, skating skills, jumping techniques than Yuna, then you are either 1) not very smart 2) new to figure skating. Why are we even discussing this. I know for sure Sotnikova's choreography for Yuna will be too easy and cheesy, while Sotnikova won't even be able make it through half of the program without falling and catching up with the music. Common sense people.

One of the main reasons Yuna lost is because her choreography wasn't complex enough. Don't you think if Yuna could do fewer than 6 back-crossovers to set up her 3-3 she would have? Adelina did two and more complex turns into the same 3-3. If you cannot see that you are either 1) not very smart 2) new to figure skating.

 

[cuon_alpinus]

3Lo 2A3T counter argument and overall Technical Analysis & GoE Comparison & PCS.pptx
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxaztqWPTVZOVlNvNTJqdHdlMkE/

 

[qwertyskates]

One of the main reasons Yuna lost is because her choreography wasn't complex enough. Don't you think if Yuna could do fewer than 6 back-crossovers to set up her 3-3 she would have? Adelina did two and more complex turns into the same 3-3. If you cannot see that you are either 1) not very smart 2) new to figure skating.

Ah, I have the perfect rebuttal, but let me first go look up some powerpoint slides for counter arguments....

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Ah, I have the perfect rebuttal, but let me first go look up some powerpoint slides for counter arguments....

Well if it's in Powerpoint it must be true