Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

[jenm]

Comparing and ranking skaters from different events is not the same as comparing them from SP to FS of the same event IMHO.

How is that different? There is comparison between execution of the same thing from two different times. So in general, the judgement is still based on a past performance whether it happened yesterday or last month.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

No need to be defensive...it's a common mistake hence the Flutz. Skaters make that mistake all the time They look identical almost. I thought you may have been looking at the lutz in the end nstead since it was pretty crappy.

A judge giving a +2 instead of a +1 is not scandalous and if judges are similar to us in our interpretations it's only natural. VEN is making claims that its egregious. It's not. If it deserved a -1 and recieved a +2 that would be scandalous.

I think you would be a lot stingier of a judge than me.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

How is that different? There is comparison between execution of the same thing from two different times. So in general, the judgement is still based on a past performance whether it happened yesterday or last month.

You might be right here but were also talking different judges so their respective scales upon which each one scores and awards or subtracts points will likely vary since its not the same judges or even competitors in comparison.

 

[jenm]

Julia's 3F (Worlds version, but not too different)
GOE criteria:
1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry (meh)
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element (not really, but there is stuff before her 3F)
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation (definitely not)
4) good height and distance (not really, Carolina, Yuna, and Mao all get much more time in the air)
5) good extension on landing / creative exit (no creative exit but good extension)
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences (it's pretty good flow)
7) effortless throughout (I guess)
8) element matched to the musical structure (sort of?)

#7 and #8 are debatable. For me, it wasn't musical nor effortless. If it were effortless, she wouldn't need too much pre-rotation and wouldn't have a shaky take-off because she can "effortlessly" execute that jump. It doesn't even "look" effortless. But that's just my analysis/opinion. I can be wrong and I'd like to be corrected if I am. As for it being musical, I don't see it honestly. She did not hit any note on that particular jump (like Yuna does for example).

If you're generous, you can squeeze out a +2. It was a pretty standard 3F, not a +3, but not godawful like everyone claims. And by the way, "full blade takeoffs" are not listed anywhere in ISU communications as cause for deductions, nor is "less pre-rotation" listed as cause for +GOE.

The word generous is exactly what I'm thinking to explain her +2s but that's it. Indeed it was not bad but it was not a +2 or +3 kind of Flip. Flip is a "toe" jump and but she kind of used the wrong technique for the take-off. Doesn't that count for bad take-off which is a bullet for -GOE? The rules are not very clear and this is just my understanding.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

There is no right or wrong and what you consider generous may be considered reasonable to others. That is inherently the nature of judging. I am intrigued by your use of this wording:

I said she did not execute a bullet point EXTRAORDINARILY WELL

I can't find in the guidelines that you not only have to achieve a bullet but you must do it extraordinarily well. Is this a personal preference you choose when considering good jumps or have you seen this listed in the guidelines. It's my understanding that in order to achieve +GOE you simply need to satisfy the bullets.

 

[ioanablabla]

T
My personal "conspiracy" theory is that the ISU recognizes the growing market in youth FS at the moment and have been in general pushing the next generation to continue the growth in Russia and to some degree the USA. The writing is on the wall. This next quad is likely to be Russia vs USA. That's not to discount some of the other potential threats like Park but just to see the big picture. ISU is a business and as such needs to gain a new fanbase in the absence of some pretty big names. It would make sense to push for the young ones to score well in order to carry the sport forward. Overall I think the kids they pushed for skated well and honestly better than expected in some cases. This is more a gut feeling I've had and thought about pre-Sochi. No one really knows what really went down. I fully admit what happened in Sochi was odd but I don't feel the whole sport is as corrupt and evil as is presented by some. All the politicking in the world still needs to be shown blade to ice.

Without focusing on Sochi solely I think the skaters wound up where they should based on the entire year and their overall standings. To me that is the bottom line.

I really wonder if Yuna had competed in the GP if she would have helped control the rate of inflation. That is pure speculation but had she shown up and established herself this year I can't help but wonder if that may have curbed some of the enthusiasm and dampened some of the surge. I guess like many things well never know.

I also thought at some point that giving the gold to Yuna was like accepting a small slap in the face for the future of figure skating. I mean she had a comeback- while others ticked competition after competition drawing the public in and also the money, she stopped competing. Then she magically came back and somewhat wanted to regain her nr 1 spot just like that, only to retire for good. I don't know if the insiders of the sport think this is good for it.
I also think there;s a trend in pushing the new faces in, the ones that represent the future of the sport.
But then again, it's an exagerated theory...

 

[jkun]

There is no right or wrong and what you consider generous may be considered reasonable to others. That is inherently the nature of judging. I am intrigued by your use of this wording:



I can't find in the guidelines that you not only have to achieve a bullet but you must do it extraordinarily well. Is this a personal preference you choose when considering good jumps or have you seen this listed in the guidelines. It's my understanding that in order to achieve +GOE you simply need to satisfy the bullets.

What's funny is you don't even need to satisfy the bullets, technically speaking.. It is, as they say, to the discretion of the judges.

 

[jenm]

There is no right or wrong and what you consider generous may be considered reasonable to others. That is inherently the nature of judging. I am intrigued by your use of this wording:



I can't find in the guidelines that you not only have to achieve a bullet but you must do it extraordinarily well. Is this a personal preference you choose when considering good jumps or have you seen this listed in the guidelines. It's my understanding that in order to achieve +GOE you simply need to satisfy the bullets.

No, I based that on YOUR OWN POST where you said that the judges can overlook all the other requirements if a skater executes a bullet so well. The one where you explained how Sotnikova can have +3s because she jumped so high and that's why the judges could overlook the other requirements. Isn't that your own explanation? I'm literally just basing my assessment on some of your posts but you are returning it to me like I invented rules or misunderstood the guidelines or I'm just being stingy to Yulia. LOL

And my point is that, the awarding of GOEs is solely on the judges discretion even tho there are guidelines so cheating/bias/fraud/incompetency, whatever you want to call it, is a possibility. In my honest opinion, it is one thing to generously overlook the mistakes so that a skater doesn't have to be dinged for them BUT it is another to award MORE points to the same jump of the same quality. My question is that if they could be generous to Yulia (and Adelina) who had flaws, why can't they apply the same thing to those who executed the element not only correctly, or textbook if you may, but also so well?

Yulia received higher score on 3F than Yuna and Caro. The only person who scored higher than her was Adelina. At least Adelina did one bullet (height) so well that the judges could overlook the other bullets (again, based on your own words). Whereas, Yulia didn't.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I'm not trying to justify all the positive GOE that Adelina recieved. Generous is an understatement in her case. I don't think anyone can justify all her +3's or properly explain it away. That is not my intent. In mentioning the guidelines I was not intending to rationalize the scores but simply expose a flaw in the system.

Re: comparing jump scores from skater to skater.

This is more in general but in light of this off topic discussion(Sorry BoP..I agree with your analysis of the StSeq) especially with the scrutiny of this 3f I'll add this. While saying Caro's jump is better and as such must score higher sounds quite correct and in most cases is but the truth seems to be it doesn't stop there. First of all I don't think after a skater does a jump the judges grade it and use it as a measuring stick for skaters X,Y, and Z. What I mean is when someone does a 3f I don't think they compare it to other skaters version of the same jump or even remember what they scored them. Instead I believe they use the placement of the jump in the program and at times are vulnerable of being caught up and sometimes actually judge the moment too. So if a skater just completed a good StSeq and skates out and nails a jump immediately proceeding then it may act as a crescendo does for an orchestra and draw a better score then one that wasnt presented with the same effectiveness. It's not to say the jump is better but it's possible IMO for it to score better. To me it's not unfair because presentation and choreo can make all the difference in the world for a skater and increase their scores across the board. This sport isn't judged by the book and since it is a judged sport there is a lot of grey areas for the judges to operate in. It may not be that the jump was better but it's presentation may be more enticing.

My scoring corrections wouldn't necessarily change the results but a more fair outcome would have been Mao winning the FS at around 145. Then I would put Adelina, Caro, and Yuna around 142 in any order. I can see a fair case for all three to be Olympic champions. To me the placements aren't worthy of scandal but the way it was achieved deserves honest scrutiny.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I don't think anyone can justify all her +3's or properly explain it away.

It was a well-skated program, which is why you saw so many +3's (many of which were on spins, which is common for good spinners). The elements were all very well delivered except one. Of the 12 elements, only two judges (#3 and #8) gave her 4 marks below +2. Everyone else gave her at least 9 +2 or +3 marks on her elements. It's amazing how many people who were not in attendance can second-guess the judges' evaluation of the quality of what she put out there. The one mistake every judge took off points within a one point range (-1 or -2). While Yuna did not make an obvious mistake, her solo jumps (3Lz, 3S, and 2A) were not the best quality she was capable of and she lost points on those.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

It was a well-skated program, which is why you saw so many +3's (many of which were on spins, which is common for good spinners). The elements were all very well delivered except one. Of the 12 elements, only two judges (#3 and #8) gave her 4 marks below +2. Everyone else gave her at least 9 +2 or +3 marks on her elements. It's amazing how many people who were not in attendance can second-guess the judges' evaluation of the quality of what she put out there. The one mistake every judge took off points within a one point range (-1 or -2). While Yuna did not make an obvious mistake, her solo jumps (3Lz, 3S, and 2A) were not the best quality she was capable of and she lost points on those.

I agree that most judges were equally impressed and rightfully so..it was the best skate I've seen from her and full of fire. I should have been more clear...the one judge that gave nearly all +3's was IMO overly generous. I dont think any more so than the judge which gave Yuna's PCS 10/10/9.75/9.5/9.5 which was equally suspicious to me. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the same judge was just over scoring in general from what most people would. Like I said...I can see a clear case for all three to have won...I do however think the scoring could have been better. Although I'm sure this debate would continue anyway no matter how close the scores were.

Re:spins

ITA. It was claimed the other day that proof of fraudulent judging was in how many GOE points Yulia and Adelina got. I pointed out in Yulia's case of her twenty-five +3 GOE's twenty of them were on her spins and and ChSeq and scored across the board from all judges. Two of the other five were tossed out as outliers including the now infamous 3f.

I may not be the biggest Adelina fan but I was and have always been impressed by her jumps. I think she definitely should have edged out Yuna in the jump scores in this particular event.

 

[AliceInWonderland]

LOL Sam-Skwantch also pointed out on the Yulia fan thread that Yulia got a -3 on her lay back.

I think that there wasn't a single skater who's every score could be defended and/or explained.

 

[Figure]

Talking about quality jumps I’m wondering is there any skater in the past or present who had jumps that covered about 25 feet ice coverage like Yuna in her 3Lz-3T?
I couldn’t believe my eyes when I watched her doing it. I always thought there is some kind a string pulling her. It’s so freaking amazing. It’s like out of this world.

 

[AliceInWonderland]

Her SP spin in the SP.

 

[AliceInWonderland]

Talking about quality jumps I’m wondering is there any skater in the past or present who had jumps that covered about 25 feet ice coverage like Yuna in her 3Lz-3T?
I couldn’t believe my eyes when I watched her doing it. I always thought there is some kind a string pulling her. It’s so freaking amazing. It’s like out of this world.

Among the men, yes, but among the ladies? I doubt it... maybe Mao on an extremely good day? Or Carolina on an extremely good day?

 

[Figure]

Yes among the ladies. It’s incredible how she can control with such high speed going in and still manage to land.

 

[AliceInWonderland]

She literally flew into her 3-3s. It's amazing.

 

[gkelly]

First of all I don't think after a skater does a jump the judges grade it and use it as a measuring stick for skaters X,Y, and Z. What I mean is when someone does a 3f I don't think they compare it to other skaters version of the same jump or even remember what they scored them.

Nope, they're not supposed to. They're supposed to apply the positive bullet points (with some discretion), and GOE reductions if applicable. The "measuring stick" would be a mental image based on the thousands and thousands of jumps they've seen over the course of their judging careers, not just the top seniors.

Where the bullet point says "good" (or the -GOE guideline says "poor"), different judges may draw their mental line between good (poor) and just OK in different places, but they should each be consistent across all skaters.

Instead I believe they use the placement of the jump in the program and at times are vulnerable of being caught up and sometimes actually judge the moment too. So if a skater just completed a good StSeq and skates out and nails a jump immediately proceeding then it may act as a crescendo does for an orchestra and draw a better score then one that wasnt presented with the same effectiveness.

That could be two bullet points right there, "Clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element" and "Element matched to the musical structure." So that could deserve +1 right there even with no specific technical strengths.

If there are other strengths, other bullet points, then +2 or theoretically even +3 could be possible, even without meeting the "Good height and distance" criterion, which is only one bullet point out of a choice of eight.

 

[jenm]

I may not be the biggest Adelina fan but I was and have always been impressed by her jumps. I think she definitely should have edged out Yuna in the jump scores in this particular event.

Really? How can jumps with mistakes worthy of deductions score higher than jumps executed correctly and with quality? While Adelina's jumps were high, they were not clean like Yuna or Caro's. Not only did she stumble on one of her combination jumps, she had issues with some of her jumping techniques like fully-forward toe jumps (toe axel), wrong edge and underrotation, not to mention not very good air position. I was also impressed with the height she gets in her jumps but I don't think she should score higher than the person who is practically one of the standards for jumping in women's figure skating and who performed mistake free.

I have a question regarding jumps because I'm not an expert (just making my own analysis). How can Adelina's 2A score higher than Yuna's 2A at the end of their programs when she practically did not do anything before and after her jump? Yuna, on the other hand, did 9 different movements (choreo), then jumped her 2A and then did a combination spin like right after the jump? It really puzzles me.

 

[jenm]

Nope, they're not supposed to. They're supposed to apply the positive bullet points (with some discretion), and GOE reductions if applicable. The "measuring stick" would be a mental image based on the thousands and thousands of jumps they've seen over the course of their judging careers, not just the top seniors.

Where the bullet point says "good" (or the -GOE guideline says "poor"), different judges may draw their mental line between good (poor) and just OK in different places, but they should each be consistent across all skaters.

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make.

That could be two bullet points right there, "Clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element" and "Element matched to the musical structure." So that could deserve +1 right there even with no specific technical strengths.

If there are other strengths, other bullet points, then +2 or theoretically even +3 could be possible, even without meeting the "Good height and distance" criterion, which is only one bullet point out of a choice of eight.

I understood the "Clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element". Even if the steps weren't clear (or is it just me), she did movements before and after the jump. But I don't get the second one. I honestly did not see that. But perhaps that depends on the person. Based on my understanding, these are the bullets she fulfilled surely:

2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
5) good extension on landing / creative exit

As I have said before, it wasn't matched to the music. I felt like she just threw in a jump while music was playing in the background. On the "good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences", while the flow on the exit was good, the flow on the entrance wasn't [for me]. Her 3 turn was not quality either and her jump looked rushed to me. It was pretty good but then not really something "word class". But this is just my opinion and I really want to hear what others think of it too.

On Yuna's 3F, I've found that she fulfilled these bullets:
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

I'm not sure about 3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation. What is varied position in the air? Is that like the Tano jump? About the delay in rotation, I guess she had this. But anyway, there were 3 judges who gave her +1, I don't get it. She clearly fulfilled and even exceeded required bullets for a +2. It was even +3 for me.

And this is why I don't see how Yulia can score higher on 3F than Yuna. Sorry to BoP because of my off-topic posts. I'll stop now. Sorry.

P.S. Thanks to those who answered my questions or replied to me. I learned stuff.