Arakawa's Flip/Lip
- Thread starter Vicky458
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2004
ABC Commentator Dick Button calls that a "Flutz". It's when a flip actually gets turned into a lutz because of the entry way. There is a deduction for doing that. If Shizuka Arakawa did that, the judges should have deducted from the technical score.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
SailorGalaxia518 said:
I thought a flutz was the other way around: a skater is supposed to be doing a lutz but at the last minute goes from the outside edge to an inside edge, making it not a true lutz, but a flutz. The lutz is the more difficult jump, so I can't imagine anyone doing a lutz when they are supposed to be doing a flip.
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2004
Well maybe it is. I don't know, I get them confused.
Either way, the judges should have deducted but you know how that goes
Either way, the judges should have deducted but you know how that goes
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
When I skated, I had a very weak back inside edge, and I lipped my way through competitions. I could not understand why the CoP basic scores for a flip were lower than that of a lutz, but if I were still skating competitively, it would be in my favor.
On topic:; Isn't the Caller or his assistant supposed to catch this sort of thing? This is not even subjective, it is stupidity.
Joe
On topic:; Isn't the Caller or his assistant supposed to catch this sort of thing? This is not even subjective, it is stupidity.
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
Since they don't penalize skaters that do a flutz (lutz from an inside edge entrance), I suppose they would not penalize skaters that to a lip (flip from an outside edge).
In either case it is an incorrectly done jump, from what it was intended to be, and it should receive a deduction.
Vash
In either case it is an incorrectly done jump, from what it was intended to be, and it should receive a deduction.
Vash
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
They are official jumps the flutz would be a flip and the lip would be a lutz-I think :think: :yes:
Always remember a lutz is done on the outside edge and a flip is done on an inside edge.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Vash01 said:
Don't they give flutzes and lips a minus in GoE? I read they actually give a higher minus if the flutz is really bad. I mean they are actually judging a flutz not a lutz!
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
But we'll never know which judge gave the +2. Thanks to Speedy.Vicky458 said:
Joe
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
5 of the 13 judges gave her a plus score on that jump.
Do you think that these 5 didn't notice the edge, or did they think that other aspects of the jump made up for it?
The judge who gave her a +2 for the flip gave her lower than average component scores across the board, so I don't think it was any kind of favoritism.
Mathman
Do you think that these 5 didn't notice the edge, or did they think that other aspects of the jump made up for it?
The judge who gave her a +2 for the flip gave her lower than average component scores across the board, so I don't think it was any kind of favoritism.
Mathman
See, this is one of the things that makes CoP so maddening. Does a flutz count as a flawed lutz or as something else, if so, what's the actual point value supposed to be, if it's relatively good should it get a +2 or should it get a -2 because the jump isn't executed correctly, was the error in fact noted, etc, etc. Talk about a system ripe for overanalysis.... :sheesh:
(Please do not take this as a criticism of any of you out there astute enough to be analyzing it, however. If you can understand any or all of the intracacies of this, then you're about 10 steps up on me and more power to you!! Personally, if I tried to break it down that extensively, it would make my head hurt......)
(Please do not take this as a criticism of any of you out there astute enough to be analyzing it, however. If you can understand any or all of the intracacies of this, then you're about 10 steps up on me and more power to you!!
Personally, if I tried to break it down that extensively, it would make my head hurt......)
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
JonnyCoop said:See, this is one of the things that makes CoP so maddening. Does a flutz count as a flawed lutz or as something else, if so, what's the actual point value supposed to be, if it's relatively good should it get a +2 or should it get a -2 because the jump isn't executed correctly, was the error in fact noted, etc, etc. Talk about a system ripe for overanalysis.... :sheesh:
(Please do not take this as a criticism of any of you out there astute enough to be analyzing it, however. If you can understand any or all of the intracacies of this, then you're about 10 steps up on me and more power to you!!
I for one do not take this as criticism of myself. For me, and this is just me, the flutz is not an official jump and should be considered as a non-entity or it should be considered as a flip by definitition and if it interferes with the Zayak rule, too bad. If this were enforced, we would see the skaters with perfect lutzes.
I also believe if the lutz is perfect it should earn its base score assuming that there was a perfect take-off and had flow out of the jump when landing. A minus score should be given if it falls short of the definition. However, since the officials consider a flutz as an attempted lutz, a minus 3 penalty should be given because there is no such jump. Aside from the flutz there should be minus penalties for long entries, poor landings, poor posture, etc.
A plus score should be given for footwork into lutz, tano lutz, a perfect landing going into another element, e.g., a spread eagle.
Unfortunately, what the judges will give in the way of + and - scores is pure subjective.
Joe
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Shizuka is not the only skater with a lipped flip. Look at Elena Sokolova (the worst I know in that matter), Viktoria Volchkova, Elena Liashenko, Yoshie Onda even Julia Sebestyen (I have regrets putting her in that list, I like her jumps so much). Actually I don't know many woman skater who have a true lutz AND a true flip.
It seems that when a skater has a flawed lutz or flip, they only execute that jump after a glide parallel to the large rink side ... in order to hide their incorrect taking off edge to the judges ? (Irina Slutskaya did that from the moment she changed her lutz technique into some kind of flutz). Anyway I don't see how the judges can be fooled by such tricks, they should know the skaters better (well if they want to of course).
Anyway CoP stipulates that bad edging in a jump takeoff is liable of a -1 to -3 GoE according to the importance of the error. Have the judges read it ?
It seems that when a skater has a flawed lutz or flip, they only execute that jump after a glide parallel to the large rink side ... in order to hide their incorrect taking off edge to the judges ? (Irina Slutskaya did that from the moment she changed her lutz technique into some kind of flutz). Anyway I don't see how the judges can be fooled by such tricks, they should know the skaters better (well if they want to of course).
Anyway CoP stipulates that bad edging in a jump takeoff is liable of a -1 to -3 GoE according to the importance of the error. Have the judges read it ?
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- Joined
- Sep 21, 2003
alain707 said:
It seems to me that lips and flutzes should be deducted in GOE based on bad entries into the jump. That makes the most sense to me.
I'm just a novice fan, but I've watched for it a lot, and sometimes I think people are making too much of it. I've seen lutz takeoffs that were definitely (to me) outside edge as the skater bent the knee and picked, with just a hint of a roll to inside as the skater is taking off, and heard other fans MOAN and GROAN about flutzing. On the other hand, I've seen those LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG entries into the lutz with a clear roll to the inside well before takeoff.
It all gets very confusing to me.
I lip my flip, you flutz your lutz;
Lip, lutz, flip, flutz, let's call the whole thing off!
Zayak rule
While, you are covering flutzes and lips, I have a question about axels...
In a recent competition, a skater attempted a triple axel. He doubled it. Later in the program, he purposely did a double axel.
So, does he get credit for attempting a triple axel, minus -1 to -3? And also credit for a double axel?
Or does he get credit for one double axel and the second one doesn't count because it violates the Zayak rule?
Linny
While, you are covering flutzes and lips, I have a question about axels...
In a recent competition, a skater attempted a triple axel. He doubled it. Later in the program, he purposely did a double axel.
So, does he get credit for attempting a triple axel, minus -1 to -3? And also credit for a double axel?
Or does he get credit for one double axel and the second one doesn't count because it violates the Zayak rule?
Linny
