Article mentions Michelle's back pain

[hockeyfan228]

About skating injuries in general, we know that jumping causes a lot of ankle injuries and that long-term training of jumps is hell on the hips. Does spinning carry inherent risks of back problems?

That's an RGirl question if I ever heard one!

 

[Grgranny]

I'm sure it would. I know if I step just wrong, it would set mine off. It gets bad enough that I am in so much pain, it is hard to even turn over in bed. Luckily it hasn't done that for a couple of years but you have to be really careful.

Off topic. My daughter and hubby are taking me to Kansas City to use the night I won at the Raphael Hotel tomorrow.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

My post said, [emphasis added]. In other words, if the article is correct, why --hypothetically -- wouldn't she give the reason in the article, which I paraphrased as an alternative quote, just as I paraphrased what she did say. Certainly you could have chosen to paraphrase the article without using quotation marks, but that wasn't my choice.,

And we understand the "reason" for that choice.

QUOTE=While the article states as fact that the reason Kwan pulled out is because of a back injury, Globe and Mail lists no source, either from Kwan, a Kwan doctor, or a member of the Kwan camp. The article did not say, "it is likely she pulled out because of a back injury, based on her comments after Campbell's" or "we believe that she pulled out because of a back injury, based on her comments after Campbells." The quote from the article is,The American star has been unable to do the layback spin that is a required element in the short program and has decided she's not up to competing at this time.
[/QUOTE]

And absolutely nothing about "eight revolutions in the SP" from any media source.

Joe

 

[Lucy25]

ALL parts of your back are involved in the layback position. Add to that nerves to the arms and legs that can have pressure on them from a back injury. The layback spin not only uses the back, but also the arms and legs. Especially with low back injuries sometime moving the legs even baby steps is painful if not impossible. In jumping if the use of the arms and legs are limited in anyway it will effect the ability to jump.
QUOTE]

Ok, so laybacks do not specifically use the lower or upper back, but instead affects the back as a whole. For some reason I was thinking the upper part of the back might be more sensitive to a layback. Thanks for the information, Piel.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Lucy - I think the rule for laybacks is to just layback from the waist. What Sasha, Sarah, and many others do is an 'attitude' spin to start, which is using the upper back; then drop the lower back. Most of the European ladies do not start with the 'attitude' spin but go right into a standup spin and then lower their back. Mr. Button insists on the 'attitude' position. Esthetically, he's right but according to the rules it is not necessary.

Joe

 

[Lucy25]

Thanks Joesitz - as someone who has not ever really been able to arch her back (my jr high cheerleading coach was always baffled by this), I am seriously clueless about this topic, but I am learning.

 

[Lynn226]

Off topic. My daughter and hubby are taking me to Kansas City to use the night I won at the Raphael Hotel tomorrow.

Have fun. I live near KCMO.

 

[ladybug]

Lucinda Ruh is also injured. Is her injury to the back? If so, could it be caused by her spinning?

Ladybug

 

[roundboypete]

I don't think Michelle's the type to mention an injury or how bad it is even when she has to wear a cast on her foot.

While the article states as fact that the reason Kwan pulled out is because of a back injury, Globe and Mail lists no source, either from Kwan, a Kwan doctor, or a member of the Kwan camp.

Did I hurt my back? Did I twist and shout?
That's for me to know and y'all to find out!

 

[mzheng]

Hey, roundboypete, glad you are back.

Would you please come back around the national to post your great cheering song for Michelle.

 

[roundboypete]

Hey, roundboypete, glad you are back.

Would you please come back around the national to post your great cheering song for Michelle.

Hi, MZheng. I am so mad at Michelle! I went to all the trouble of writing a poem in honor of her victory at Skate America, and now I can't use it.

It started out like this:

Shelly came to Pittsburgh with a whole new attitude!
Shelly came to Pittsbugh with her game face on!
Shelly told the others, "If you want Skate America,
That road goes through Kwan!"

*sigh* All that inspiration wasted.

Pete

PS. Hey, wait a minute..."Shelly came to Portland with a whole new attitude!"

Never mind. I'll see you in January.

 

[bronxgirl]

Roundboy pete, inspired as always!

 

[Rgirl]

Rgirl, you are being paged on the Michelle's Back Pain thread in the Edge (post #21). MM

That's an RGirl question if I ever heard one! Hockeyfan228

Hmm, methinks I come to mind because of all those aching backs people get from trying to read those looooooongwinded Rgirl posts Don't worry on this one. I'll use this emoticon :agree: to let the reader know the big insurance companies have given their stamp of approval that the post is not of such length to cause back pain in the average reader. But I'm only covered for length. Nobody would even touch me for content--surprise, surprise.

And sorry I'm so late in responding, but my back's been killing me. (Who didn't see that one coming a mile away?)

Actually, Piel already answered the question about layback spins and back problems extremely well. Moot though anything I say may be, I'll add a few more things about spins and the spine.

Layback spin: No matter when you arch the back, the spine can only bend backwards in two sections of the four sections of the spine. The four sections are the seven cervical vertebrae, 12 thoracic, five lumbar, and the five fused (all bone) vertebrae of the sacrum. (There are anatomical variations with some people have an additional vertebra in one area, but I'll just stick to what most people have.) So when a skater arches the back, whether it's for a layback, an Ina Bauer, a spiral, whatever, only 10 of the movable 24 vertebrae contribute to the arch. Because of variations in torso length, ribcage size and placement, shoulder placement, and other things, it may look as if the thoracic spine is arching too, but the thoracic vertebrae are skeletally designed so they cannot arch. For more detailed info as well as illustrations go to "Spinal Anatomy and Back Pain" at http://www.spine-health.com/topics/anat/a01.html

As for other spins, e.g., the various sit spins, these too can cause strain on the back. If it's a straight back sit spin, a lot of stress is put on the spine to maintain the correct position and control the torque (twisting force) as one spins. If it's a face-to-knee sit spin, the extreme forward flexion of the lumbar spine plus the torque causes even more stress. Add a twist to either position, and the muscles, tendons, ligaments, and discs (the latter of which are actually ligaments) all experience more strain.

Then there are all the spin variations and combo spins. As any skater will tell you and as Dick Button hammers home every season, spins require a great deal of energy. But it's a different kind of energy than the explosive kind required by jumps or the endurance kind required by maintaining speed while stroking. (Won't go into ATP-PC, anaerobic, and aerobic energy; skating uses all three overlapping anyway.) Spinning requires an energy that is somewhat akin to holding a pose for a long period, such as that required for an artist's model, except of course you've got the muscles working even harder to maintain all the factors of the spin. This builds up a lot of pressure especially within the lumbar discs of the spine. So even a straight-up scratch spin is hard on the back.

Still, IMO, the hardest thing on the back in skating are the jumps. However, with the COP rewarding difficulty for every element, I think the main reason we're seeing back injuries in some of the top all-around skaters is the combined effect of pushing the inside of the envelope on everything. It's a high-wire endeavor and I just hope that skaters and their coaches find ways to balance health and safety with risk.
Rgirl

 

[SailorGalaxia518]

That's odd, She seemed ok at the Campbell's Classic

 

[dlkksk8fan]

Rgirl, would you believe I was wondering about where you've been and all of a sudden here you are!

"As for other spins, e.g., the various sit spins, these too can cause strain on the back. If it's a straight back sit spin, a lot of stress is put on the spine to maintain the correct position and control the torque (twisting force) as one spins. If it's a face-to-knee sit spin, the extreme forward flexion of the lumbar spine plus the torque causes even more stress. Add a twist to either position, and the muscles, tendons, ligaments, and discs (the latter of which are actually ligaments) all experience more strain."

And all this time I'm thinking that I'm doing my back good by strengthing it with all my spinning, now I'm a littled worried

 

[Rgirl]

Thanks, Donna!
It's good to have time to post again and see you all again, too. As for your concerns about spinning, people blow discs bending over to pick up a pencil because of years of being out of shape (usually combined with genetic predisposition) or years of high level athletic activity without proper training. Of course athletes mostly injure their backs doing the difficult moves or repetitive overtraining.

For any move in skating, it basically comes down to balancing off-ice strength, flexibility, and endurance training with on-ice practice and refinement of the various elements, such as spins. The idea is to strengthen the back, hip, abdominal, and other muscles needed for a particular spin (or whatever element) off the ice so that when you practice the element on the ice, the specific neuromuscular system becomes strong enough so that you can do the element both well and safely.

So don't despair. As long as you're doing off-ice strength training with machines and free weights, and maintain your flexibility and endurance, doing your spins will indeed help you maintain a strong back. People tend to have problems when they try a new element too quickly, try something they don't have the anatomical structure for, or return to full training after time off without a period of off-ice weight, flexibility, endurance, etc. training and gradually working into more difficult moves on the ice.

Hope that didn't sound "now teacher says" (vomit emoticon) but I wouldn't want people to interpret my post as "spins will hurt you!" Like anything in athletics, preparation is the key.

Here's a good exercise to prepare for spinning if you can't get to the gym:

Happy Skating,
Rgirl

 

[jesslily]

Lucinda Ruh's back injury seems pretty serious according to her on-line journal. I feel her deep bend layback spin and spectacular biellman spin caused the injury.

 

[Mathman]

That's odd, (Michelle) seemed ok at the Campbell's Classic

She looked great on her jumps. But I did think she held back a little on her layback spin. In her interview with Peter C. at Campbells, IIRC, she said that she strained her back trying to work in the four changes of position required to bring the spin up to a "level 3" for CoP scoring, "twisting around, grabbing my leg," etc.

The Halifax article says:

"The American star has been unable to do the layback spin that is a required element in the short program and has decided she's not up to competing at this time."

Of course, the SP was not contested at Campbells.

Mathman

 

[roundboypete]

Rgirl, Rgirl, here's to you!
On the GS board you're the guts and glue!
Yeah, you post these gems for us to ponda,
And now you're back from the wild blue yonda!
Your way with words is a sumptuous treat
To your everlovin' confrere,

Roundboy Pete

 

[dlkksk8fan]

Rgirl LOOK I'm exercising already......
Ah my back feels better already and the itch is gone too