Article: Michelle Kwan: The Kwaniacs Attack!

[Piel]

I read the blog and all I can say is that I find some of that very hard to believe. I have found myself clapping (at home) when someone who is a threat to MK in a competition falls or misses an element. BUT I am not actually celebrating the skaters mistake but the rather the door that just opened up for Kwan. Looks the same to an observer but the INTENT in my heart is different. Let's face it how many times has there been a competition where everyone skates a perfect program and the winner actually wins outright without any help from the competition? I have read complaints against Kwaniacs for breaking into applause and whooping it up when she goes into her smiral or footwork part of her program. This obscene behavior somehow offended the fans of her competition.

 

[Kuchana]

You know, that article raised my heckles as I took issue with some of the things that the author said but the funny thing is, whenever an issue was at MKF about what this author said or another (i.e. Hersch) I never took the name to actually email him to let him know my displeasure with what he said. I may not have agreed with it but I didn't let myself get to the point of giving him a piece of my mind. But, I was however, compelled to write this one time in response to this article mostly due to the hatred that I saw, the majority coming from the people hating on Kwan (who they don't even know) and the fans (again who they don't know but make baseless assumptions about). I really dislike it when people lump others into one label, generalizing them one way or another. Case in point the term Kwanatics. This doesn't mean of course that I don't criticize Kwan for some things I feel she should do but where does it go for anyone by pigeonholing people?

Therefore, I feel it a little unfair to pick out people who may be a fan of Kwan (the extremes unfortunately as well as others), giving a negative light on them. As has been pointed out, there are uber fans for other skaters AND for other sports. Funny thing is, I don't hear an issue made of the other sports or hardly for the other skaters as I constantly hear about fans of Kwan. Whenever someone (such as myself) who may jump in defense in a reasonable manner, people automatically peg me or others for doing so as Kwanatic. I'm getting continually frustrated by this. I don't think Kwan is perfect but she's my favorite female skater (she hasn't been the only one either) so therefore what's wrong with me liking her?: I don't like feeling defensive about it at all. And just because her level of skating has gone down throughout the years, it makes me no less a fan of hers. I'm still hoping to be enthralled with her as much as I was in the first couple of years she came out.

As for gushing in non-skater specific forums, I think it's appropriate in some levels. One helpful thing as has been pointed is if you don't consider the thread interesting or don't care for the skater, then by all means don't read it.

 

[R.D.]

I dunno. As unfair as this might sound, I have to say I think the Kwan fans in question brought it on themselves. They really did. And as much as it sucks, there ARE a select few Kwan fans that give the fan base a bad name. These guys totally painted everyone in a bad light. But overreaction to non-threatening posts, I must say, can't help their cause against fighting this unfortunate stereotype.

 

[Piel]

I finally just embraced the Kwanatic thing. My feeling is if I'm going to be an uberfan at least I picked someone who has lived up to having uberfans. AND I find myself to be in very good company most of the time. I think for me as far as FS goes it's "all Kwan all of the time". But in my life FS is a very small part of it. Whether Kwan wins or loses a big competition my life stays the same...I still have to pay my mortgage and clean up after my dog. I must admit I have spent WAAAAY to much time on the computer today but my doc has me on bedrest for a few days so what the heck.

 

[Piel]

I dunno. As unfair as this might sound, I have to say I think the Kwan fans in question brought it on themselves. They really did. And as much as it sucks, there ARE a select few Kwan fans that give the fan base a bad name. These guys totally painted everyone in a bad light. But overreaction to non-threatening posts, I must say, can't help their cause against fighting this unfortunate stereotype.

RD don't you think that most people realize this and consider the source? Being stereotyped by ignorant, vengeful people is ...like being banned by Adrian Chew. A tad inconvenient if I want iformation from his site, but other than that do I REALLY care that he doesn't want me there?

 

[swannanoa54]

I read the first blog and then the second one. I read all the responses and grew cross-eyed at the venom that was coming from non-fans of Kwan. (And frankly, I disagree with the use of non-fan because, IMO, it implies someone is a non-fan of a sport, but hey, that's just me and that's JMO.)

Anyhow, I, too, was banned from Sashafans for being a troll when in actuality, I like Sasha as well as Michelle as well as Alissa as well as Irina as well as a few other ladies. I was also banned from MKF but that's a whole 'nother can of worms. Being the reasonable person that I am, I find that you cannot believe some of the responses that are posted over at mercury news.

First of all, a bunch of anti-whatevers have taken MKF posters' names and used them in horrible responses. Then there is the person who decided to post a response AS "Michelle Kwan". Now that's pretty sick.

Second, so what if fans of ANY athlete want to answer a sports journalist's article. I've done it on several occasions (not in figure skating). One was about Tiger Woods and another was about Evander Holyfield (that's really going back a ways though). (And yes, I watch boxing and I'm a lady but I cheer, hiss and boo. Just depends on the sport). And I'm a Kwan fan. And my family has met and spent time with Kwan as well. She's a wonderful, young woman who doesn't deserve the crap that's handed towards her from anti-whatevers or uber-fanatical fans. Neither does Sasha (whom we also met). It's just pathetic. That whole thing is pathetic.

There are some very rational responses in among the ubers and haters. Of course, RD, you haven't displayed any of those. And not all Kwan fans are "frumpy, middleaged" whatevers. My daughter's 20. My son is 28. And I haven't been frumpy since six weeks ago. I don't care for the sports journalist, but I understand her wanting someone different to be the "face of the Olympics". Personally I'd like to see someone who has absolutely no chance of winning any color medal be the face of the Olympics. Those are the ones who become the true Olympians. They have a dream. They show them in fluff pieces during the Olympics all the time. Sure, they hope to win, but being an Olympian for their country, whatever country that may be, seems to be the greater honor. I think, sometimes, all the hype surrounding the OGM causes us to lose focus of the honor of just being able to be an Olympian.

 

[Piel]

Where is "Eddie the Eagle" when you need him? I would give anything to have another Olympics like Calgary 88. So many colorful personalities. The only negative was "my girl" (at the time )Debi Thomas didn't do as well as expected. OK that and Frank Gifford going oooooooon about how wonderful Kathie Lee was doing interviewing people on the late night wrap ups. Please indulge me as I am way off topic here but some of my fondest moments were: The Carmens, The Brians, Wilson and McCall, G&G, B&B...scary I know but still interesting who can forget their exhibition and an almost speechless for once Dick Button's comment "He (Bukin) did everything but take a penalty shot", Alberto Tomba, Kat Witt giving a press conference and admitting that she had had a wee bit of beer and was a little tipsy, My favorite summary of all times for an event following the ladies free skate...."In the end the American got the bronze, the Canadian got a cowboy hat, and La Bimbo got LaBomba." Over all the Americans did poorly medal wise but the Canadians made everyone feel so welcome and seemed to be enjoying hosting the world so much it didn't matter. May we be so lucky in Torino.

 

[R.D.]

I suppose some new people have responded since I last checked out the article. Where's the middle ground? We have the extreme ubers on one side, and the extreme so-called "haters" on the other. Oh lord. This issue will never be resolved; I suppose we'll just have the same old fights over and over again ad nauseum. Don't look forward to how high tensions will rise during the Olympic Season. Sigh- :sheesh:

 

[R.D.]

RD don't you think that most people realize this and consider the source? Being stereotyped by ignorant, vengeful people is ...like being banned by Adrian Chew. A tad inconvenient if I want iformation from his site, but other than that do I REALLY care that he doesn't want me there?

Well, yes, but that's not what I was referring to. I have to trust that the ultimate ubers who are bashing other skaters and posters are NOT the same ones crying out for equality (complaining that they are labeled as Kwaniacs). I would love to assume that these are the tried and true Kwan fans that do not wish to be grouped with these few destructive people.

I don't often talk about the other side, i.e. the haters because I don't think it's as relevant to this issue. Everything seems to begin with misunderstandings, i.e. comments that aren't truly "hating" are perceived as such.

Of course, RD, you haven't displayed any of those

I only quoted part of one post

 

[mpal2]

I'm still trying to understand the argument that Kwan fans brought it all on themselves without any prodding whatsoever and others were compelled to respond only after rabid Kwan fans became bad. I think the rabid anti-Kwans and rabid pro-Kwans grew obnoxious in proportion to each other because neither side gives it a rest. And each side becomes more insistent and defensive.

I also still don't understand the spread of stories about abuse at the hands of mass groups of Kwan fans. I've been to every Nationals from 2002 on and I'm just not seeing this truely horrendous behaviour that is so different from Sasha fans or [insert skater's name] fans. :scratch: What I am seeing is stories that grow into urban legends and continue to get bigger and more full of bull each year.

One of my absolute favorites is the continued b**tching about pompoms and how they were tortured. I've seen the same person's story go from obstructed view only to actual physical abuse from the pompom bearing Kwaniac. (Urban legends must grow.)

I rate pompom obtructs view right up there with the person who runs in and out constantly for food/drinks or to go to the bathroom. Or someone who brings kids to the event who are too young to sit through the entire thing or who are out of control. How about the people who never shut up. This is not just a "Kwan fan" issue on lack of respect to other viewers around them. Please remember that as annoying as it can become, this is not mass destruction and torture/torment. We will live to see another skating day.

Fans cheer for their favorite. If that pisses anyone off, don't go to live competition. We can't control who we'll be sitting next to so don't take the risk if it will cause undue stress. Just be glad we don't have fans like the football games where big men go half naked with painted stomachs. Imagine the drama and discomfort then.

 

[thisthingcalledlove]

These two needed to get a life! HAHAHA

 

[millie]

Piel, what did you do that was so shameful to be banned from Sashafanatics site so quickly? Did you mention her flutz(big no no with Sasha fans probably), her failure to win a single U.S or World title up until now, the fact she did not even get her first win over MK until the 2004 season, or mention that she has never done a clean long program in a competition of grand prix event stature or higher(excluding cheesefests obviously)? Or did you simply dare to say you liked Michelle more, and you thought she was better.

I thought I was finished with this post until I read your thread:frown2: :frown2: Its comments like that, that makes the non-fans keep going! If somebody responded to Michelle like you just did about your thoughts on Sasha, the Kwanatic would be after them like bees around a honey jar. Just for curiousity, I checked out the Sasha fan forum, there isn't anything negative said about any skater, Michelle, Irina and yes, Sasha. Yes, you are entitled to your own opinion about you feel about a particular skater, but the problem is that some of you guys can't take a dose of your own medicine.

 

[mpal2]

I've been thinking a little more and felt like I needed to my rabid Anti/Pro Kwan rant.

Both Rgirl and Red Dog have both mentioned being attacked for innocent comments. I'm not doubting or denying that it happened, but to stand here and that this is a refreshing and open thread that needed to be discussed... Well to be honest I'm finding this extremely one-sided. There is a whole group of anti-Kwans attacking the pro-Kwans which isn't really being mentioned here. The Kwan fans are getting jumped on just as much as Rgirl or Red Dog have been.

I hope the mods don't feel like I'm board dragging, but one of the reasons why I've about completely stopped reading anything at MKF is that a group of rabid anti-Kwans when there to stir up trouble. This led to tension everywhere that is still reverberating through the board today. These few individuals took joy in stirring up trouble and breaking down friendship and trust. Yes, today after all that crap, the board is extremely suspicious and distrustful at times.

Go back to the urban legend stories. Do you really think these stories aren't attacking someone for being a Kwan fan? If someone labeled a Kwaniac by the anti-Kwans accidently bumped into a child, there would be a story on the internet within the hour that a child was attacked by rabid Kwan fans. You can see the results of these stories simply because people are so willing to believe and ask "wow...have Kwan fans really become that bad?" Is it any wonder that normal fans would start to become defensive?

This bad behavior everyone wants to talk about is much bigger than Kwan fans so why aren't more people willing to go there? This is an issue of mass stereotyping and internet stalking. These people are loud but they are not the majority. Who knows how many pseuds these people (on both sides) have thought up to deliberately stir up trouble and make it seem bigger than it really is? For anyone to go to such lengths no matter what side they take is truely sad and pathetic. Sometimes even dangerous. But this is not just Kwan fans only.

 

[Piel]

Millie, how's this for a few...........

Oh, I think we can assume that she will go....she probably shouldn't be on the team, though. Olympics is not her best thing.

Michelle has gone twice, as the overwhelming favorite, and has choked both times.

That's what she does to bring the program to her comfort level which has been decidedly low of late.

The nature of changes usually involves taking out most MITF and simplifying the choreo until there's very little left besides the jumps, footwork and the ending pose where the back of her head touches her butt. She did have a nice variation of that ending pose for Aranjuez, however. Other than that she's been skating the same program for the last several years. I am sure she is aware that this will not fly in Torino.

What you call "complete re-choreographing", I call dumbing down

I think Michelle missing the competitions up to Nationals is par for the course for her...she did that in 1998 as well, and has done so several years running now.

Of course, nothing with Michelle surprises me anymore, but I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't retire before the OLYS. I am not sure she is looking forward to a thorough trouncing, and that is what she would get at CoC. Nats will undoubtedly lure her in......that annual crowning is very appealing, but how awful for her if she looses to Sasha or Kimmie......either of whom, if they stand up, could beat her on the elements

Its interesting Michelle is doing CoC...she should get a huge welcome there. Chinese people regard every "overseas Chinese" as their own.

Paint me cynical, but if there wasn't going to be one, there will now.....for Michelle. And for ABC - covering "Michelle's comeback, and fight to the Gold" will make GREAT tv!

Well, if so, that is not "great" television. That would be like shark meat masquerading as real crab meat! But I am also cynical -- nothing would surprise me since the bump incident and SLC

regarding one of the most intelligent and well respected posters on any FS board after she posted as to why Sasha sometimes has a wonky landy on her jumps

I agree that ^^^^^^^^^^ is full of it. She tries to make herself sound smart, but she isnt.

I have absolutely no trouble imagining Michelle getting royally pissed when things don't go her way. I think Michelle displayed her true nature when she let Sasha take the rap for their bump in the practice ring, and of course, when she summarily fired Frank during the run up to SLC.



I agree, not to mention her many indulgences -- which I find difficult to believe she has not asked for. One cannot be healthy and prosperous and yet ask for special treatment which disadvantages competitors without having an almost aristocratic sense of entitlement.

I can't stand Michelle Kwan since the first time I saw her skating, long before I knew Sasha. So I stay out of threads directly related to her because I don't have anything good to say about her.

Frankly, its one thing to have Tara Lipinski, one skater, who can clearly beat you by outskating you; NOW Kwan has at least 5, maybe 7 or 8, who on a good day can trounce her. The odds are just overwhelmingly against her as to the actual skating, and so in the REAL WORLD she has to ask herself whether she wants to risk her legacy to the kind of corruption that ALWAYS comes out into the light of day sooner or later.

She does not need any OGM; nothing will change for her one way or the other if she wins one, but the risk she is taking is in fact HUGE; she could fnd herself seriously injured and/or a really bad joke

Please, Michelle, honor yourself, own what you have accomplished, GROW UP and move on.

The "deer in headlights" comment originated in 2000 by that gaggle of old ladies who have nothing better to do than be cultish Kwan fans on RSSIF who were busy attacking Sasha immediately after the SP at 2000 Nationals when she beat Kwan in the SP.

More importantly, if you've noticed, they take Sasha's characteristics, like having beautiful, big brown eyes, and try to turn that into a deficit by linking it with fear and then using it to deamonize Sasha.

These Kwaniacs described in the first post on this thread appear to be a cult, pure and simple...they are a community which is sustained by Kwan's "glory" and nothing else, they do not even respect the art of figure skating enough to learn its standards and rules.

The real reason - if she was person enough to admit it - is that she's simply plain lazy

The ISU itself is implying that her behavior is off the wall, and her behavior is certainly hers alone...no one else really has gone to the extent she has in avoiding competition and showing up for the more prestigious events, as if she were a frigging princess, as if she had some "right" no other skater has! Its her BEHAVIOR that I find truly obnoxious...it makes me feel dirty for ever supporting her so much...she is like an aristocrat who uses the power people have given her to seek out special treatment and to heap abuse on the other skaters!

I thought Dick's comments about it being a Kwan Love Fest were satiracle...because Dick Button would not like a love fest for any skater, including himself. He hates sentamentality! I guess I thought it was his way of saying, "I think I am going to puke,"

But it wasn't just a Kwan Love Fest...it was a bash Sasha fest, and has been for several weeks. There is SOMETHING wrong with a "champion" who cannot thrive unless her fans and her "people" in authority bash other skaters to smithereens every possible chance they get.

I don't want to rehash the "bumping incident"...I was just mentioning to a new person why I personally have problems with MK's integrity.

 

[SusanBeth]

There are a few things on that list that I would consider bashing. However the larger part of those comments are simply legitimate opinion. There is a difference. The problem is that many don't/won't recognize the difference.

 

[swannanoa54]

There are a few things on that list that I would consider bashing. However the larger part of those comments are simply legitimate opinion. There is a difference. The problem is that many don't/won't recognize the difference.

There are probably only 3 things said on that entire list that aren't bashing. The rest focus on integrity, ethnicity and a few other things. I know the difference between bashing and constructive/nonconstructive criticism. The majority of those posts just don't reach that criticism criteria. Other than that, it's just one poster's opinion.

The fact is that no one can stand up for Kwan without getting branded a rabid fan. That isn't true. I've been accused of trying to hide my "uber Kwan fandom" when in actuality, I've been a fan of figure skating long before Kwan ever jumped on the ice. I don't think defending Kwan when her integrity is attacked by posters who don't like her skating is wrong. But I think there is a way to do it.

And who is to know what to believe about Nationals in Atlanta? Why care when it's all water under the proverbial bridge now?

 

[Piel]

I have a problem when someone claims to know what someone elses INTENT is or when the person's character is attacked. Every one of the posts I cited were insulting and most attacked her character or assumed to know what her rationale for her actions was. All bashing is "just opinion". According to these posts she's choked twice at the Olympics, dumbed down her programs, has a quite low comfort area of skating, routinely misses competitions, will be thoroughly trounced under COP, will lose to Sasha or Kimmie if they can just stand up, is choosing to only skate COC because she is Chinese, TV coverage of her is shark masquerading as crab (this could be a wash... predator vs. bottom feeder, LOL), pissed when she doesn't get her way, didn't come clean about the Sasha bump, asks to be indulged, expects aristocratic treatment, fired her coach...like that's a bad thing?, can't stand her, have nothing good to say about her, can be trounced by eight skaters and is leaving her legacy to corruption by continuing to skate, could become a really bad joke, needs to grow up, is not person enough to admit she is just plain lazy, acts like a frigging princess with behaviour so obnoxious a former fan feels dirty, abuses other skaters, off the wall behaviour, made Dick want to puke,and lacks integrity.


No bashing there, huh? If any of this were true than I would have no problem with it. But none of it is supported by fact. She did fire Frank but because she thought it was what she needed...not as some way to demean him.. You can't fire Frank but you can fire Nicks (and Tarosova and Robin)...where is the logic there?

Then there are the digs at the Kwan fans that are just as senseless. It implies that Kwan is Kwan because she has fans . Kwan has fans because she is Kwan.

 

[millie]

I have a problem when someone claims to know what someone elses INTENT is or when the person's character is attacked. Every one of the posts I cited were insulting and most attacked her character or assumed to know what her rationale for her actions was. All bashing is "just opinion". According to these posts she's choked twice at the Olympics, dumbed down her programs, has a quite low comfort area of skating, routinely misses competitions, will be thoroughly trounced under COP, will lose to Sasha or Kimmie if they can just stand up, is choosing to only skate COC because she is Chinese, TV coverage of her is shark masquerading as crab (this could be a wash... predator vs. bottom feeder, LOL), pissed when she doesn't get her way, didn't come clean about the Sasha bump, asks to be indulged, expects aristocratic treatment, fired her coach...like that's a bad thing?, can't stand her, have nothing good to say about her, can be trounced by eight skaters and is leaving her legacy to corruption by continuing to skate, could become a really bad joke, needs to grow up, is not person enough to admit she is just plain lazy, acts like a frigging princess with behaviour so obnoxious a former fan feels dirty, abuses other skaters, off the wall behaviour, made Dick want to puke,and lacks integrity.


No bashing there, huh? If any of this were true than I would have no problem with it. But none of it is supported by fact. She did fire Frank but because she thought it was what she needed...not as some way to demean him.. You can't fire Frank but you can fire Nicks (and Tarosova and Robin)...where is the logic there?

Then there are the digs at the Kwan fans that are just as senseless. It implies that Kwan is Kwan because she has fans . Kwan has fans because she is Kwan.

"QUOTE": There can be no doubt that the average man or woman blames much more than he praises. Their instinct is to blame. If they are satisfied they say nothing; if they are not, they most illogically kicks up a vow.":yes: :yes:

Looking forward to watching Campbells today.

 

[Piel]

Just for curiousity, I checked out the Sasha fan forum, there isn't anything negative said about any skater, Michelle, Irina and yes, Sasha.

Do you still stand by this statement?

 

[millie]

Piel, regard to post #175

QUOTE:"A person who uses a great many words to express his meaning is like a bad marksman who instead of aiming a single stone at an object takes a handful and throws at it in hopes he may hit". I think that we all going to have to agree to disagree on this subject and it ain't going to end.