Article: Michelle Kwan: The Kwaniacs Attack!

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Rgirl - Nothing wrong with what you are saying. But I question if you know what is meant by non-fan? It is because of a signature which has been removed of a poster who means he is always a non-fan of figure skating. Not a non-fan of Kwan.

This has been my point all along. Why go after one skater if you don't like skating?:scratch: This answer would clear up a lot of this nonesense. I certainly would withdraw from all this, if the answer would come forth. I won't even try for the last word because I found out that all posters get a last reply from him.

There are a lot of Non Fans of Kwan. There should be. Everyone has their own tastes and arguments should be about their skating and in most cases they are. No problem. Nothing wrong with opinions either but they get boring after a while when they are just saying the same thing over and over.

One will get verbally attacked if anyone posts derrogatory remarks about Sasha or Michelle. Trust me I read enough of these posts. We even agreed on one such poster who was a nonCohen with the same remarks over and over again.

It's not for banning purposes. It's to let them know to blow it out of their @@@s

Aside: Navka and Kostamarov at Ice Theatre of New York next week.

Joe

 

[R.D.]

So from what you and RD have said why is it OK to boo a team but not an individual?

- It has to do with the CULTURE of the sport. Booing of the opposing team is part of the CULTURE of most team sports (basketball, football, etc.)

- Like it or not, figure skating is still very much perceived as an "ice princess" sport. Many people (me included) don't even THINK it's a sport. So what can give skating that "sporty" feel?

I think you're right on when you say the skaters need to grow thicker skin. The skaters also should be more open and honest with their comments. (Weir, Cohen come to mind when honesty is mentioned).

I would throw in some other suggestions, but the know-it-all posters will be after me once again.

 

[R.D.]

This has been my point all along. Why go after one skater if you don't like skating? This answer would clear up a lot of this nonesense. I certainly would withdraw from all this, if the answer would come forth. I won't even try for the last word because I found out that all posters get a last reply from him.

One last time. I don't go after any skaters, and I don't not like skating, otherwise I wouldn't be here

But I will hypothetically answer your question. I want to clear all this up, so I will answer this one as honestly as I can.

I "go after a skater" (I so don't do this, but whatever) when I expect more out of that skater. If that skater does well I applaud her. If she doesn't do as well, then I offer my insight as to what she could do better. Alright? (Still don't get all the subtle digs in your posts.)

ETA: Rgirl is basically saying the same thing I am. So I must conclude that your beef isn't vs. non-fans in general, but with ME. That comes across very clearly in your posts. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm very confident that's where your beef is. It can't fit any other way.

I think this petty argument is Skating Knowledge Part Two. If you want to keep the die-hard skating fans and shut out everyone else, fine with me. I'll leave here if you want me to.

 

[Rgirl]

Joe,
I agree with Piel, on both her reasons for respecting you and what I will call my disappointment and confusion at your remarks about Red Dog and this thread. Figure skating includes fans. This thread is about fans. This thread is about figure skating. You, of course, are free to disagree.

I've also spent precious time today looking through Red Dog's list of posts going as far back as they're listed looking for signs that he is an obvious KWAN basher, to reflect your use of color to emphasize your point about RD. No, I did not read or reread every one. But I tried, I really did, to make sure I got a good cross section of RD's posts I may have missed or to see innuendo that "bashes" Michelle. I just couldn't find it.

However, giving you the benefit of the doubt and even though this is OFF-TOPIC (you brought it up and you are a mod), I'm asking for your help. If you could please recall or find a few examples where Red Dog is bashing Michelle, I would appreciate it. You've called Red Dog a Kwan basher several times in two threads. Especially as a moderator, I think you have a responsibility to back up those accusations with evidence of things Red Dog actually posted.

I am trying my darndest to keep an open mind on this, Joe. I just want some, any evidence of your accusations against Red Dog so I can put this to rest for myself. Your help would be greatly appreciated. PM me or post, it's up to you.

Rgirl

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

So football is a man's sport and FS a ladies'? .

Oh Piel - I am so tired of this thread and now I have to reply on my sexist attitude. hwell:

I have been to football games many times (mostly school games) and have heard the cheers and boos and I did see some ladies with chrysantheumums on their jackets. There is a social event here also.

I have also been to many LIVE skating competitions. Right or Wrong, in my opinion but there is a difference in the crowds between the sports. The ladies dominate at skating attendance, and they do cheer (and their husbands agree), but there is no dscernable booing except for Speedy.

My conclusion Right or Wrong is what I have noticed.

Joe

 

[Ptichka]

Does anyone know what the feeling is in Russia? Are there calls there for her to retire so someone else can have a chance?

Are you kidding me? The one season Irina was basically out Russia lost its third Wolrds spot. No, it's more like "all the other girls just need to get their stuff together, so Irina isn't the one who has to save the team again and again". With the Japanese skaters only recently entering the elite ranks, it's like Irina is the only one who can defend Russia against America.

As to booing and sports. It has nothing to do with ladies/ men. I used to participate in this Russian activity, KBH, which is basically teams doing comedy sketches competing against each other. There was a game when I saw both of my grandmothers booing the judges! So I for one won't ever say ladies can't boo...

 

[R.D.]

If you could please recall or find a few examples where Red Dog is bashing Michelle, I would appreciate it. You've called Red Dog a Kwan basher several times in two threads. Especially as a moderator, I think you have a responsibility to back up those accusations with evidence of things Red Dog actually posted.

EXACTLY. Joe, where's the evidence? Bring it forward. I'd love to see it. I said this before and my comment got ignored. SO I think it's just another case of a Kwanfan getting his digs at a non-fan since he's got no evidence to prove that I'm REALLY bashing Kwan.

Also, any points that I made earlier that MIGHT have been perceived as a bash were later cleared up in the thread. I challenge you to find one that's been unchecked.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Rgirl - I do disagree with you on this and we can agree to disagree. I do not want to reread anymore posts about Michelle from an admitted nonfan of skating.

Let's just keep him in your corner and end this here.

Red Dog you have the last word.

Joe

 

[Rgirl]

Rgirl - Nothing wrong with what you are saying. But I question if you know what is meant by non-fan? It is because of a signature which has been removed of a poster who means he is always a non-fan of figure skating. Not a non-fan of Kwan.

This has been my point all along. Why go after one skater if you don't like skating?:scratch: This answer would clear up a lot of this nonesense. I certainly would withdraw from all this, if the answer would come forth. I won't even try for the last word because I found out that all posters get a last reply from him.

There are a lot of Non Fans of Kwan. There should be. Everyone has their own tastes and arguments should be about their skating and in most cases they are. No problem. Nothing wrong with opinions either but they get boring after a while when they are just saying the same thing over and over.

One will get verbally attacked if anyone posts derrogatory remarks about Sasha or Michelle. Trust me I read enough of these posts. We even agreed on one such poster who was a nonCohen with the same remarks over and over again.

It's not for banning purposes. It's to let them know to blow it out of their @@@s

Aside: Navka and Kostamarov at Ice Theatre of New York next week.

Joe

You're right, I should clarify whether I mean non-fan as not a fan of any particular skater or a non-fan of Michelle. I'll go back over my posts and correct that.

However, Red Dog has stated for at least two years that he IS A FAN OF SKATING but just NOT A FAN OF ANY ONE PARTICULAR SKATER. It made sense to me the first time he said it. Two or more years later, it still makes sense the thousandth time he's said it (more or less).

As for the Cohen/Kwan analogy, I disagree. Yes, there are plenty of Cohen fans on GS, all of whom were hounded at one time or another by one particular poster. That is very different, IMO, from any given poster who criticizes Michelle being attacked by a dozen or more rabid Kwaniacs. Since i already said I'd said enough, that's all I'll say. Just felt that point needed to be clarified. As always, you are free to disagree.

Thanks for the heads up on N&K at ITNY.

Rgirl

 

[R.D.]

Alrighty. Fair enough!

(I think you can add me to your ignore list if you don't want to see any more posts from me. )

ETA- I recommend this to anyone else who is irked by me, or what I post.

 

[R.D.]

Just to clear something up.

Rgirl is right. I call myself a fan of skating (explained why 1,000,000 times and won't do it again), and NOT A FAN OF ANY PARTICULAR SKATER, i.e. a Non-fan.

 

[Rgirl]

Rgirl - I do disagree with you on this and we can agree to disagree. I do not want to reread anymore posts about Michelle from an admitted nonfan of skating.

Let's just keep him in your corner and end this here.

Red Dog you have the last word.

Joe

Agreed as to ending this here.

But I must say, and I realize we won't post on it anymore, that Red Dog has explained many times and in many ways that he is a fan of skating, just not a fan of any particular skater right now. It's always been very clear to me.

Rgirl

 

[bdreampixie]

I wasn't going to respond, but I have to say that I don't understand the argument that there's Kwanatics and non-fans. What?!!

I lurk at a lot of differents board have never found it to be divided in such a way.

I post at MKF too, and I don't understand the ire that some have towards that forum. There are some posters that are over the top, but for the post part they're good people. You go to SashaFans or any other board and it's all the same stuff, but somehow MKF gets picked apart.

Red Dog, I have to laugh at your insistence of being a non-fan. I'd be surprised if you realized that there are other skaters other than Sasha and Michelle. Also this whole Kwanatics are so bad and constantly attacking, why don't you go back and read your own posts on this thread. There's plenty of 'em.

There's a saying in Spanish "La zorra nunca se ve su cola" (Translation: "The fox never sees it's own tail.")

 

[R.D.]

What does everyone else think? This shouldn't be just between me and Joe.

I would like constructive criticism (i.e. not petty lowbrow swipes like Joe was taking) about what I've been doing wrong to tick off so many people (so it seems hwell: ). It would really help to cut down on this incessant fighting that's detracting from real discussions about the skating, IMO.

 

[R.D.]

Red Dog, I have to laugh at your insistence of being a non-fan. I'd be surprised if you realized that there are other skaters other than Sasha and Michelle. Also this whole Kwanatics are so bad and constantly attacking, why don't you go back and read your own posts on this thread. There's plenty of 'em.

Yes, we are all guilty to some degree. That's why I want to shelf this issue once and for all. We can't change unless we are aware of what's wrong.

I'll stop my insistence that I'm a non-fan on one condition only: That everyone realize that I'm not a Sasha fan, Kwan fan, etc. I still get comments and implications from people who think I'm some Sasha fan, etc. I know it's not a big deal but due to preconceived notions I take offense to such comments.

ETA: Hopefully we can keep all the pointless banter in this thread and dump it in the archives to be buried once and for all. Then we can charge forward with the skating season. Campbell's is Tomorrow!! Let's get this party started! arty:

 

[kyla2]

O.K. Enough..

O.K. enough everyone. Can't we agree that we are all different and that we bring different strengths to the forum. Not all of us are incredibly knowledgable about figure skating, but I would say we can all discuss it intelligently, or at least passionately, and we can learn from those who are more knowledgable. We are here because we want to be here and because we love skating. The reason I like this forum is because of the adult nature of the conversation. There isn't the juvenile back and forth, which sometimes borders on the vicious. Let's keep it the it that way PLEASE. Personally, I like to hear what both Joe and Red Dog have to say.

 

[R.D.]

Let's keep it the it that way PLEASE. Personally, I like to hear what both Joe and Red Dog have to say.

I agree.

You've already heard from Joe and me- I would just like to drop that part of the conversation. That issue should be yesterday's news now. The biggest part about resolving an issue is moving on.

 

[bdreampixie]

ETA: Hopefully we can keep all the pointless banter in this thread and dump it in the archives to be buried once and for all. Then we can charge forward with the skating season. Campbell's is Tomorrow!! Let's get this party started! arty:

Finally, Something we can all agree on! , and even though it's no one's birthday :birthday: Just to show we're in the partying spirit.:thumbsup:

Can't wait too see Rochette's program tomorrow.

 

[slutskayafan21]

slutskayafan21
I'm tired.... it's a long walk to the chicken coop. Well if she does't win the OGM there will be the "wuz robbed" threads ad nauseam. I'm sure I will have to chime in on a few of those.

I was just thinking about something, doesn't Irina have an even worse record at the Olympics than Kwan...one silver in two tries to MK's one silver and one bronze? Why are there not calls for her to retire and give someone else a chance? Are people not tired of Irina too or is it just Kwan? Inkwiring Kwaniacs want to know,LOL?

You are correct, Irina has a 2nd and 5th from the Olympics, and Michelle a 2nd and 3rd so Michelle has the slight edge for now. In a way the two woman will be battling, not only for Oly gold possably with a couple other woman, and certainly Sasha anyway, but for the better overall Olympic record over 3 Olympics. An Irina medal, and no medal for Michelle, or an Irina win, regardless where Michelle places, would give Irina the slight edge(Olympic record-wise I mean, not in some irrefutable concensus on them as skaters or anything) probably; a Michelle medal of any color, and no Irina gold, would keep Michelle in front, although I am sure the gold is all either cares about at this point to be honest.

As for the wuz robbed threads, if somebody skates lights out, and nobody else does, there probably wont be many of those 'wuz robbed' threads or will they? I dont remember anybody complaining about Hughes win in Salt Lake, the furthest people went was diminishing her win because Kwan and Slutskaya had very off nights, and she was only a dark horse medal hopeful coming in, Cohen's chances were even rated higher by most insiders going in. So if even her win was accepted under those circumstances, pretty much anybody who could conceivably win, would be an accepted winner under those circumstances, right? Of course that might be an unlikely set of circumstances, most likely more than one contender will rise to the occasion, or nobody will skate lights out, and the debates ala Kerrigian-Biaul, Witt-Sumners, and Witt-Manley will start up once again, and win or lose, the Kwan fans, and their opposers, will be feisty and frisky as usual I expect.

 

[R.D.]

Is this actually going to turn into a thread about skating?

I am sure the gold is all either cares about at this point to be honest.

Irina and MK already have other Olympic medals. Of course they want the gold. Skaters like Cohen, on the other hand, might be content with any Olympic medal (of course they want Gold too, but this is in the big scheme of things).